when Ireland became N Ireland?? [Archive]

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Krstic

23/03/2009, 2:29 PM

Folks, can anyone shed any light on this for me, or point me to a website.

I have seen two programmes for Ireland V England (1958 & 1960) at Windsor Park in Belfast. It's clear from their content that the team is Northern Ireland, however i was under the impression that the "which team was Ireland debate was sorted by FIFA in 1953."

When did Northern Ireland stop referring to themselves as Ireland?

Thanks in advance.

Sheridan

23/03/2009, 2:33 PM

They still used the name in the British Home Championship after 1953, as this wasn't regulated by FIFA.

Lionel Ritchie

23/03/2009, 4:00 PM

I've heard some of the older NI fans over on OWC say you commonly heard the team referred to as "Ireland" without it raising an eyebrow amongst anyone within their support or beyond it well into the 70's -and pretty much until the old British championship came to a halt which was '82 I think.

Cotext, context, context.

Umberside

23/03/2009, 5:59 PM

In those days we would have been referred to as the Irish Free State. Presumably NI kind of took Ireland but it doesn't make that sense they'd still be referred to as Ireland in the 1970s.

gspain

24/03/2009, 11:08 AM

gspain

24/03/2009, 11:22 AM

A Republic of Ireland programme from the 1960's

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q203/gspain_2007/iresco69.jpg

Krstic

24/03/2009, 12:29 PM

Great info gspain, thanks.

EalingGreen

24/03/2009, 2:23 PM

My understanding is

The last All Ireland side fielded by the IFA was v Wales at Wrexham in 1950.

Both associations claimed the term Ireland. FIFA decreed circa 1954 that Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland should be used. Both then used small "northern"/"Republic of" and big IRELAND on their programmes etc. Now this was done for games v foreign opposition but not for Home Championship games right up until the early 70's.

The Home Championship lasted until 1984. Northern Ireland was used in the later years. The switch was sometime in the early to mid 70's. Prior to that in England it was Ireland and Eire being used.

A good and accurate summary, Gspain, but I'm not sure about one detail (emboldened). I had thought that FIFA decreed the use of the "Northern Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland" titles in 1950.

Decades previously the four "Home" nations had left FIFA, so declining to enter the 1930, 1934 and 1938 World Cups. (They were apparently very "sniffy" about ceding control of "their" game to FIFA, and were worried the World Cup would conflict with the British Championship etc!).
However, there was a rapprochement after WWII, which culminated in a fundraising game between the UK team and the Rest of Europe at Hampden Park:

"The 1947 game, dubbed the 'Match of the Century', was played to celebrate the return of the Home Nations to FIFA (they had left in 1920). For the match, played at Scotland's Hampden Park in front of 135,000 spectators, the Great Britain side wore a navy blue strip in honour of the host association. The gate receipts, totalling £35,000, helped boost the finances of FIFA, which had been damaged by the lack of competition during World War II. On that occasion, the Great Britain team consisted of:

Frank Swift (England), George Hardwick (England), Billy Hughes (Wales), Archie Macaulay (Scotland), Jackie Vernon (Ireland), Ron Burgess (Wales), Stanley Matthews (England), Wilf Mannion (England), Tommy Lawton (England), Billy Steel (Scotland), Billy Liddell (Scotland)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain_XI#cite_note-28
(I think Johnny Carey of "Eire" may have played for Rest of Europe, possibly even as captain, in this game, which the home team won 6-1)

Anyhow, as a consequence, FIFA agreed to acknowledge and incorporate the special and separate status of the four British Associations, including certain privileges over rule-making etc, and in turn the Associations agreed to re-join FIFA and start entering the World Cup.

Which is where I think the Irish name dispute needed to be addressed, since FIFA could not accept two teams with the same name in the same competition. Consequently, they decreed that for all World Cup matches (later also European Nations Cup), the teams must be designated "NI" and "ROI" etc, with these appellations mandated to be used on all official documents, programmes, scoreboards etc

Certainly if you look at FIFA's website, you'll see this was implemented for the 1950 World Cup Qualifiers:
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/archive/edition=7/preliminaries/preliminary=6/index.html
(Note that the Home Nations decided to use the British Championship as their 1950 and 1954 "Qualifiers", presumably in order not to detract from their own tournament!)

For non-WCQ British Championship matches and (rare) friendlies, however, the IFA was permitted to go on using the name "Ireland", as we had always done. And iirc, we kept on doing so until around 1970, when we reverted to NI for all games.

Nonetheless, I remember the name "Ireland" occasionally being used by the fans in chants and songs etc for a few years after this time. By contrast, when we had occasion to refer to our Southern chums, we would normally have referred to you as "Eire" (also common throughout GB), or even the "Free State" (old-timers, at least).

It is only since the Charlton era that we have become commonly known as Ireland outside of the Republic.

And I wish you'd stop encouraging it, since if anyone is entitled to use that term it is ourselves - "Original and Best!" ;)

Boh_So_Good

24/03/2009, 3:08 PM

Facinating thread, very interesting.

When I was a kid I can recall in the 70's The BBC calling NI "Ireland" and us "Eire".

If I am not mistaken we played in several WC qualfiers in the 60's and 70's as "Eire" and not "Ireland". The "Republic of Ireland" thing did not seem to show up until near the 80's.

Still a great shame about the politics wrecking an all Ireland team.

gspain

24/03/2009, 3:24 PM

EalingGreen

24/03/2009, 3:45 PM

Separate issues EG

The FAI went to FIFA and the English in 1950 clubs to prevent southern players playing for NI. This is well documented in Peter Byrne's official history of the FAI 1996. There are online extracts somewhere but a quick google couldn't find them.FIFA were already concerned re players playing for 2 countries in the world cup and took the FAI's side. I always find it ironic when the IFA are referred to as a "partitionist association" given the history and how hard they fought to have one All Ireland team governed by the IFA.

At the FIFA congress prior to the 1954 World Cup both associations tried to lay claim to the term Ireland. This is where FIFA decreed that Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland be used. Our first game as RoI was then v Norway 1954. We used Irish Free State up until 1936 and then Ireland until 1954.

I have the original FAI submission for this (bought at an auction a few years back) and will scan sometime soon.

I stand corrected. (I might have known not to dispute your account! :) )

P.S. Without wishing in any way to re-open old wounds, when you refer to the irony of the "partitionist" [sic] IFA etc, in the context of the Gibson/Eligibility dispute, it is a further (little-remarked) irony that it should originally have been the FAI who sought FIFA's help in preventing the IFA from picking what would effectively have been an "all-Ireland" team.

gspain

24/03/2009, 3:58 PM

I stand corrected. (I might have known not to dispute your account! :) )

P.S. Without wishing in any way to re-open old wounds, when you refer to the irony of the "partitionist" [sic] IFA etc, in the context of the Gibson/Eligibility dispute, it is a further (little-remarked) irony that it should originally have been the FAI who sought FIFA's help in preventing the IFA from picking what would effectively have been an "all-Ireland" team.

I think that would be a real rathole for this thread.

BTW I'm pretty sure there was no effectively about it. The IFA up until 1950 considered itself to be picking an All Ireland team.

Furthermore although I never went as far as proving this or saw it referenced elsewhere it would appear that for most of the 1930's the FAI did not pick players while they were representing the IFA. I researched a few and Jimmy Dunne is one that springs to mind. He went quite a few years without playing for the RoI while playing for NI. Given he was winning leagues with Arsenal he should have been good enough then and is still considered one of our all time greats.

Sheridan

24/03/2009, 4:05 PM

I think it was fairly emphatically proven that the IFA couldn't administer football on a 32-county basis when they actually did it before partition...

MariborKev

24/03/2009, 10:59 PM

Me da was a Windsor Park regular right up until the mid 70s when he stopped going after a few incidents.

He said that most people he was with(South Stand) referred to it as Ireland, even after the name change but as with everything the "Northern Ireland" element began creeping in with the crowd he want with in the late 60s, early 70s.

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 12:30 AM

I think that would be a real rathole for this thread.
Indeed. :(

BTW I'm pretty sure there was no effectively about it. The IFA up until 1950 considered itself to be picking an All Ireland team.
Perhaps it was mere semantics/pedantry on my part, but what I was trying to get across was that the IFA felt it was picking the Irish team i.e. that they were the (only) legitimate authority to do so (as presumably the FAI felt was their entitlement, in turn). Remember, too, that up until WWII, many/most players will have been born pre-partition i.e. at a time when the IFA was the sole authority on the island, North and South.

Furthermore although I never went as far as proving this or saw it referenced elsewhere it would appear that for most of the 1930's the FAI did not pick players while they were representing the IFA.Having been corrected by you already :o, I am loathe to disagree again, but I'm not so sure about that. In all, there were 35 dual internationalists, some of whom were first picked by the IFA, then the FAI, and others the other way round. Many represented both Associations simultaneously, including 12 who were first picked by the FAI in 1931 or earlier. At least one, Enniskillener Harry Chatton, was born in what is now NI:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/10/dual-internationalists.html

I researched a few and Jimmy Dunne is one that springs to mind. He went quite a few years without playing for the RoI while playing for NI. Given he was winning leagues with Arsenal he should have been good enough then and is still considered one of our all time greats.Tbh, Jimmy Dunne is not a good example, since it seems that he was "spotted" early by the IFA in 1928, aged 23, before his career (at Sheffield United) had really taken off. When a year or two later he started playing regularly and scoring freely at Brammell Lane, he was very quickly selected by the FAI, winning his first cap for them in 1930. (Incidentally, his Arsenal career was short and disappointing, though that should not reflect badly upon someone who was clearly an outstanding footballer, as this profile shows:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/11/jimmy-dunne.html )

One other thing which emerges from this period is that contrary to what some may expect, the IFA apparently treated Southern players rather well when they turned out for them.
A number, including Dunne, Johnny Carey and Con Martin, were even made Captain by the IFA, something which was considered a greater honour then than nowadays.
Indeed, the FAI's 1950 appeal to FIFA was actually the culmination of a period during which they exerted a great deal of pressure on Southern players not to accept invitations from the IFA.
This extract from an interview with Con Martin gives an interesting account of what went on:
"Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.

Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.

“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”

So, that game against Wales — March 8, 1950 — was the last time an All-Ireland team played (ever…?). The other Southern players present were Bud Aherne, Reg Ryan and David Walsh (Johnny Carey had been withdrawn by United)"
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpost/sport/NorthAndSouthOf220308.asp

In the light of current events, I have to say it's all very ironic...

gspain

25/03/2009, 8:14 AM

Denis The Red

25/03/2009, 9:51 AM

Sheridan

25/03/2009, 9:56 AM

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

Razors left peg

25/03/2009, 12:30 PM

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

How are Great Britain entering a team for it? Is it just because they are hosts?

Sheridan

25/03/2009, 12:33 PM

Yeah.

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 1:12 PM

Jimmy Dunne went 6 years from 1930-1936 without getting a cap from the FAI. I'd need to research it properly and put the lineups side by side but I noticed an IFA team from the early 30's with quite a few southern players and none played for us in a game around the time. However I haven't done enough research to make a case.

The Cunninghams who owned Shamrock rovers also were involved in the selection committe for the RoI side. There are rumours that many Rovers players were picked to put them in the shop window. Tommy O'Connor caused consternation when he was picked ahead of Tommy Eglinton for Goodison in 1949. Rovers had home and away friendlies v Villa from 49-53.
I've dug into this a wee bit more, and it really is rather muddled, even murky.

It seems clear that in the early 30's, when the IFA was calling up players from all over Ireland, the FAIFS had a policy of only selecting players from the Free State. Yet as Harry Chatton shows, even that policy was not "set in stone":
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/08/harry-chatton.html

As to whether the FAIFS also had a policy during this period of declining to select Southern players who were also willing to play for the IFA, that may also be broadly true, as possibly illustrated e.g. by Alex Stevenson:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/07/alex-stevenson.html

Yet there are exceptions to that "rule", too. One notable such case was Jimmy Kelly, who debuted for the IFA in Nov.31 and went on to become a regular in the team, gaining 11 IFA caps in total until 1936. Yet he also was capped by the FAIFS in May 32 and Feb.34, gaining 3 more caps for them in 1936.
Curiously, he never played internationally for either team after that year, despite being still only in his mid-20's, yet he must still have been a very decent player (at Derry City), since he continued to represent the Irish League in what were then very prestigious games against the English and Scottish Leagues for some time (also the League of Ireland!).
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/01/jimmy-kelly.html
Another such case was Paddy Moore, who made his debut for the FAIFS in 1931, gaining his 7th and final cap in 1936 (when he was still only 27, btw).
Yet in between, he played once for the IFA team, away to England in 1932:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/09/paddy-moore.html

I suspect both Associations may have been influenced by additional factors, so that apparently fixed "policies" may actually have been somewhat "fluid"!
One likely (ahem) seminal such factor was the fixture clash in 1931, when the IFA XI were at home to Wales on 22nd April, whereas the FAIFS XI were playing Spain in Barcelona four days later. I imagine that with travel logistics etc, it may not have been physically possible for any player who wanted, to play in both.
Eventually two Southern players who had previously represented the IFA, Tom Farquharson and Peter Kavanagh, opted for the FAIFS, but two more such players, Jimmy Dunne (as mentioned) and Harry Duggan, stuck with the IFA.
Farquharson had represented the IFA seven times from 1923-25. He debuted for the FAIFS in 1929, played again for them in 1930 and gained (only) two more FAIFS caps during 1931.
Kavanagh played once for the IFA in 1929, then twice for the FAIFS (inc.in Spain) in 1931. He was not capped subsequently by either, despite still being very young (b.1909), but that appears to be because after being a "boy wonder", his career nosedived soon after.
(Their cases indicate that the IFA probably did not discriminate against Southern players who also chose to play for the FAIFS, whether previously or concurrently, btw)
Meanwhile, Duggan who won 9 IFA caps between 1929-35, debuted for the FAIFS in 1927, wasn't capped again until May 35, got two more in 1936 then got his final (5th) cap for them in Nov.37, by which time he was 34.
As for Jimmy Dunne, he was capped 7 times by the IFA between 1928-32. In between, he was awarded his first FAIFS cap in May 1930, but was not picked again by them until 1936, which for so prolific a goalscorer, cannot have been a coincidence.
So both Duggan and Dunne may have "suffered" somewhat with the FAIFS for their opting for the IFA, but that may have been down to that specific choice they had made in April 1931, rather than a general policy of not picking any player who ever played for the IFA?

And another defining year in this story seems to have been 1936, when attitudes at the FAIFS hardened, so that they renamed themselves the FAI, and their team simply "Ireland" (vs Switzerland on St.Patrick's Day!). Further, they began selecting Northern players, as well as restoring Southern players who may previously have been overlooked due to their having represented the IFA. Such an attitude was presumably reinforced by constitutional change in 1937, and possibly also by a greater determination to qualify for the 1938 World Cup, following their initial attempt in 1934, and especially since the IFA were not taking part.

Of course, what the Associations wanted was not the full story - the players' attitudes will also have played some part. It might be expected that personal political preferences might have influenced some, especially when memories of Partition etc were still raw. Tom Farquharson was a fledgling activist in the War of Independence, eventually appearing to have been sent to Wales to keep him out of further trouble. Therefore one might expect his allegiances to have lain with the FAIFS.
Yet the aforementioned Jimmy Dunne, who chose the IFA over the FAIFS in 1931, actually came from a noted Republican family in Dublin, and was even interned by the Free State Government in the Civil War!

Of course, it may that then, as now, many footballers weren't much interested in politics, preferring instead just to play football. In which case the IFA might have been a more attractive proposition. For one thing, unlike the FAIFS, they regularly played England and Scotland, which were huge games, which would have been a prestigious "shop window" for ambitious young club players. They also possibly had more money than the FAIFS, which might have filtered down to the players in better arrangements and match fees etc. Also, there will inevitably have been less arduous travelling etc involved in IFA games (i.e. within the UK), whereas the FAI more frequently played on the Continent.
And the FAIFS's opponents will often not have been so "glamourous" as they would be today. For example, Netherlands football was amateur or maybe semi-pro in those days and not of a very high standard.
Plus, as mentioned earlier, the IFA did appear to make an effort with Southern players - possibly in order to make a point?

Finally, there is always the possibility of "local" factors. For instance, Southern players playing for Irish League clubs were, I think, paid better than in the LOI, so their clubs may have steered them towards the IFA. Ballybofey man Jimmy Kelly certainly played for a number of IL clubs, in particular Derry City. It might therefore have been simpler for him to play in Belfast than Dublin, or in GB than on the Continent.
As for those players who played in England, I've seen reference (Farquharson?) to pressure being put on them by the Football League not to represent the FAIFS, since they (FL) were in dispute with them (FAIFS) for a period.
And I'd guess the other three "Home" Associations backed the IFA were they could.

And finally, of course, personal considerations may have come into it. For example, players will occasionally have fallen foul of selectors and "Blazers" etc at one or other of the Associations. Or there may have been more venal factors, such as the Shamrock Rovers rumours you allude to - who knows?

It's certainly fertile ground for further proper research.

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 1:28 PM

Good stuff, lads plenty of good info. You know your stuff alright.
Maybe this isn't the thread for it and I'm sure we covered it before(with gspain clearing up many things that time as well) but one way to solve the Ireland name thing..... olympic team.
I think it would be a good time to try something with the London olympics in a couple of years would be ideal.
It wouldn't have to be a preamble to an all Ireland league or team if people didn't sway that way. Just a thought.
No harm, DTR, but that suggestion would be opening a separate can of worms and pouring them all over the already difficult issue of a single Irish team generally.

For there is a huge dispute already in the UK over participation in the Olympic football in 2012. After decades during which the four Home Associations have shown no interest in Olympic football (indeed were somewhat hostile), pressure from the Government, the London organisers and IOC, plus financial rewards, means it has been decreed there MUST be a "Team GB" [sic] in 2012.
The FA has been smoozed into organising it (they've got a huge debt for Wembley still to pay back), but the SFA, FAW and IFA are dead set against getting involved.
This is because they fear that if other countries see a combined UK team entering the Olympics, they will demand the same for the World Cup etc, thereby leading to the end of the four nations' separate identities.
Worse still, that weasel Sepp Blatter has changed his mind over this at least three times, with his latest pronouncement being that it will threaten our independence.
So as I said, there will be a "Team GB", but the SFA/IFA and FAW will undoubtedly prevent their players from taking any part, so it will be 11 Englishmen only.
There is also an active supporters' campaign against this team, with the full backing of Supporters' Organisations in all four countries, i.e. including England fans (FSF).
Of course, such a campaign has nothing like the resources and PR machine of the 2012 organisers, but in conjunction with the other 3 Associations, they have managed to embarrass Lord Coe et al:
www.noteamgb.com
See also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3to7MoGHBE

Denis The Red

25/03/2009, 2:19 PM

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

Yes, I know the criteria for it, is that FIFA or IOC sanctioned qualification?
My point is why not experiment with it. I understand what Ealing Green was saying about people's reservations but if it is understood to be a once off in this particular olympics what harm is it?
Maybe in a utopian world.

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 3:34 PM

I understand what Ealing Green was saying about people's reservations but if it is understood to be a once off in this particular olympics what harm is it?

No offence, but I don't think you have the first idea what I mean.

Quite simply, if we in NI (IFA and fans) do not want an all-UK team for 2012 for the reasons outlined in www.noteamgb.com etc, why on earth would we want an all-Ireland team in 2012 (especially since no-one in the UK has given a flying one about Olympic football for over three decades)?

If there is even the slightest risk that such a team would cause people in FIFA to question why we should have two separate teams e.g. in the World Cup, when we had only one team in the Olympics, then everyone who cares about the NI team will be absolutely dead set against it.

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

third policeman

25/03/2009, 6:09 PM

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

Referring back to some previous threads, I am not really sure that this is about what football diehards want. I have said it before but football identities on this island are becoming increasingly polarised. I saw the TV interview with young Real IRA sympathisers in Derry wearing RoI football shirts, and its about as depressing as the sectarian posturing of some of NI away support on recent European jaunts. Compare and contrast with last Saturday's scenes at Cardiff or even the broad and inclusive support enjoyed by Ireland's World Cup cricket team.

I would be quite content to see my team disappear along with its flag and anthem if an All-ireland team was a means of building better cross community and cross border relationships. I totally understand and respect why some Unionists would be wary of such a move, but in my experience most of the people I talk to from that tradition are more than willing to give it a go. It's about more than football and football fans should not have a veto on it. I would love to see the some proper independent research on the proposition. If most people in the North were against it, then that's fine, but if it turned out that there was majority public support North and South for it then why not try it out in competitions like the Olympics and the Celtic Cup?

Denis The Red

25/03/2009, 6:21 PM

No offence, but I don't think you have the first idea what I mean.

Quite simply, if we in NI (IFA and fans) do not want an all-UK team for 2012 for the reasons outlined in www.noteamgb.com (http://www.noteamgb.com) etc, why on earth would we want an all-Ireland team in 2012 (especially since no-one in the UK has given a flying one about Olympic football for over three decades)?

If there is even the slightest risk that such a team would cause people in FIFA to question why we should have two separate teams e.g. in the World Cup, when we had only one team in the Olympics, then everyone who cares about the NI team will be absolutely dead set against it.

For whilst some ROI fans might be content to see their own team disappear, that is not something which any NI fan wants for his/her own team, whether for an all-UK or an all-Ireland replacement.

Clear enough?

Whoa, who rattled you cage?:eek:
First, I care about my national team as much or perhaps even more than you do yours, it's identity, history and it's future.
Second, I already said this would be a once off with no basis for a permanant amalgamation with a British team or an all Ireland one. Never mind what Blatter said or what FIFA want. If you're worried about the idea, which you clearly are, then don't support it. Like I said it's only a thought.
Third, I would like to see us represented in the olympics and the only way that would happen would be one Ireland with both associations on board.
I wouldn't lose sleep if it didn't happen.
But anyway don't fret too much as I don't see it come to fruition.

Dodge

25/03/2009, 6:25 PM

Denis, the Olympic qualifying competition is the UEFA Under-21 championship. Since no All-Ireland team competes in that, none can qualify for the Olympics.

Well thats not strictly true. AFAIK that the Republic u21s do attempt to qualify through the Euro u21 qualifiers but so far haven't. You'll probably remember the 1988 qualifiers where a LOI selection attempted to qualify. This team, like the u21s was administrated by the FAI

In general Olympic terms the official name of the GB team does not include the "& Northern Ireland" the comes after GB in athletics terms. Athletes from the 6 counties are generally free to decide whether they wish to represent Ireland or GB. Several examples in several sports last year. Coleraine rowing club had rowers represent both countries.

Theorethically if both countries have teams in the 2012 Olympics, under the agreement between the Olnpic Council of Ireland and the British Olympic Association, footballers could choose. In reality I'd imagine the FAI and OCI wouldn't rock the boat, and would select only from the ROI panel. Whether any NI footballers are good enough for the GB olympic team remains to be seen, but I'd imagine the manager/selectors would have no qualms in picking them.

Sheridan

25/03/2009, 6:31 PM

Well thats not strictly true. AFAIK that the Republic u21s do attempt to qualify through the Euro u21 qualifiers but so far haven't.
Yeah, I know, that's kind of what I was saying. There is no All-Ireland team in the qualifiers, so there can be no All-Ireland team in the finals. But there could be a Republic of Ireland side.

Incidentally, the Olympic football tournament is administered by FIFA. Eligibility is the same as for any FIFA tournament. Officially, the games are just Under-23 (FIFA) internationals.

Dodge

25/03/2009, 6:43 PM

With 3 overage players. Suppose we'll never find out as we (Ireland) will never get there

The closest example of the British team coming together solely for Olympics is hockey where a unified irish team compete on the world stage with Wales, Scotland and England. However for Olympic hockey it is GB who plays (they must qualify as themselves though as England's (or the rest) results do not count towards their qualification (The Ireland results do count...)

Ireland only recently started to attempt to qualify as the Northern union had previously blocked attempts to qualify as they had supplied players to the GB side (and several have won medals).

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 8:51 PM

Referring back to some previous threads, I am not really sure that this is about what football diehards want.I wasn't referring only to "diehards", rather the wider NI football "family". And having followed the NI team for nigh on 40 years, I've hardly met one who actively would want a single team. Some might be prepared to accept it in certain circumstances, but the vast majority are opposed, to varying degrees. (And btw, that includes fans from a Cathoic/Nationalist background, since if you think about it, any such football fans who do prefer a single team are these days much more likely to support the ROI anyhow, not NI!)

I have said it before but football identities on this island are becoming increasingly polarised. I've no doubt you are correct. However, that mitigates against there being a genuinely united team, not for one.

I saw the TV interview with young Real IRA sympathisers in Derry wearing RoI football shirts, and its about as depressing as the sectarian posturing of some of NI away support on recent European jaunts.I find it wearisome to be told about such matters from someone who appears to get his information from 2 minute newsclips and YouTube etc.
I could just as easily draw a detrimental picture of ROI fans from similar sources, but I don't, because despite having little first hand experience of them, I am prepared to accept that the vast majority are entirely agreeable, with a very small minority being "muppets". Just like NI, in fact.

Compare and contrast with last Saturday's scenes at Cardiff or even the broad and inclusive support enjoyed by Ireland's World Cup cricket team.
Puh-leese! :rolleyes: Rugby and Cricket are completely different games, with completely different supporters etc. There is no useful comparison which may be made (imo).

I would be quite content to see my team disappear along with its flag and anthem if an All-ireland team was a means of building better cross community and cross border relationships.There are many much more important things than football which I would be prepared to forego, if I thought it would bring about such an outcome.
But if you honestly think that creating a single team over the heads of the fans etc would lead towards that, then you are extremely naive. It is like suggesting that if e.g. Celtic and Rangers were merged into "Glasgow United", that you still wouldn't have Catholics and Prods hating each other from their respective ghettos.
Or do you imagine that a single Irish football team would cause the politicians, prelates and paramilitaries etc to set aside their differences etc? If there are political problems connected to football on this island, it is because these are the product of those differences, not the cause of them.

I totally understand and respect why some Unionists would be wary of such a move, but in my experience most of the people I talk to from that tradition are more than willing to give it a go. I am a Unionist myself, until I put on my emerald green shirt, when I become a football fan. As such, I no more welcome Unionist politicians (and non-football fans) from poking their nose into the game, than I do Nationalists politicians etc, thanks very much.
(And btw, I don't know who you mean by "most of the people I talk to from that tradition", but I consider your implication that a majority of Unionists are "willing to give it [i.e a single Irish football team] a go" to be entirely risible)

It's about more than football and football fans should not have a veto on itNo it bloody isn't and Yes we bloody should! :mad:
Why should people who have no interest in a sport, or are even actively hostile to it, have the final say over our game?
If, for example, a (majority) coalition of GAA, Rugby and Horse-racing fans in the Republic were to decide that football in Ireland should be re-united by abolishing the FAI and reverting to the status quo which existed pre-partition i.e. governed by the IFA from Belfast, with the majority of games played there etc, would you be happy to accept that?
Or if e.g. the general Dublin public got fed up, say, with hooliganism amongst fans of St. Pats/Bohs/Shams etc and demanded the three teams be amalgamated into one, would that be OK? (A hypothethetical example, btw, with no desire to besmirch fans of the three clubs)
And why stop at football? If a majority coalition of Protestants and non-churchgoing people in NI were to tell the Catholic Church that they will not be allowed their own (segregated) schools, and must instead integrate them into the State system, would that be fair? Should the RC veto not be allowed?

I would love to see the some proper independent research on the proposition. If most people in the North were against it, then that's fine, but if it turned out that there was majority public support North and South for it then why not try it out in competitions like the Olympics and the Celtic Cup?Why not ask all football fans in the Republic, including barstoolers, event junkies and fans of English and Scottish clubs, would they like to see the Eircom League and its clubs abolished entirely, to see them replaced with two Irish-based franchise teams, one each in the EPL and SPL?
That might just achieve a majority, if you researched widely enough; are you happy for "democracy" to prevail closer to home than NI?

I must say, you're one strange football fan. First you declare your willingness to see your team abolished, next you advocate the general disenfranchisement of football fans over the game they follow.

Why not do us all a favour and start supporting GAA...:rolleyes:

EalingGreen

25/03/2009, 9:11 PM

In general Olympic terms the official name of the GB team does not include the "& Northern Ireland" the comes after GB in athletics terms. Athletes from the 6 counties are generally free to decide whether they wish to represent Ireland or GB. Several examples in several sports last year. Coleraine rowing club had rowers represent both countries.

Theorethically if both countries have teams in the 2012 Olympics, under the agreement between the Olnpic Council of Ireland and the British Olympic Association, footballers could choose. In reality I'd imagine the FAI and OCI wouldn't rock the boat, and would select only from the ROI panel. Whether any NI footballers are good enough for the GB olympic team remains to be seen, but I'd imagine the manager/selectors would have no qualms in picking them.
It is not possible to draw examples from other Olympic sports and apply them to football.
This is because FIFA only allows football in the Games under strict conditions, which explains why, for instance, football is the only Olympic sport which has age restrictions (FIFA will not permit open-age players, for fear that the Games would come to compete with the World Cup etc).
It also explains why FIFA insists the Olympic football competition be organised by the appropriate local Association on behalf of the host nation. Obviously for London, this is the (English) FA, acting on behalf of the UK. However, should the FA seek to pick players from Scotland, Wales or NI, I have no doubt they will be told to p1ss off by the SFA, FAW and IFA.
Similarly, should the FAI ever attempt to select players for an ROI Olympic team, who are already tied to the IFA, then I have no doubt the IFA would tell them to p1ss off, too.

Dodge

25/03/2009, 11:38 PM

Football is not the only sport organized by local affiliate. It follows the same route as all sports in the olympics. Rules and qualifying criteria set by sports governing body and games run by local association and host Olympic committee

Obviously I take your point that football is unique, but then the Ireland/GB thing is unique too. As I've said I don't foresee it ever coming up

Denis The Red

26/03/2009, 2:11 PM

Well this debate could all be irrelevant now anyway.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7961907.stm