Good article on Trap in todays Guardian

[Noelys Guitar]

With direct quotes from Brady and Zola.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/21/football-italian-managers

[Scram]

With direct quotes from Brady and Zola.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/21/football-italian-managers

"It wasn't so long ago that Glenn Hoddle and Kevin Keegan were managing England without having gained any qualifications. That's not to say they could not do a good job, but it indicates how much more serious the Italians are about educating their coaches. It is ultra professional."

Don't know why I thought of Stan when reading this :D

[Saint Tom]

to say our last three attempts at qualification were "feable" is totally unfair. bar last one - we have not played a qualification game where we couldn't qualify since the 80's. a remarkable achievement for a nation of only 4+ million people

[elroy]

to say our last three attempts at qualification were "feable" is totally unfair. bar last one - we have not played a qualification game where we couldn't qualify since the 80's. a remarkable achievement for a nation of only 4+ million people

I would tend to agree. I still look back at the Euro 2004 campaign in particular and think what a huge opportunity was missed there. We were first seeds in a group where we really shouldve qualified. Despite a terrible start, it was the home draw with Russia that where we really let it slip. If we had qualified there, we would probably have been first seeds for the WC 2006, again making things easier for ourselves.

I think the final game of Kerr's reign was one of the most feeble performances Ive seen from an Irish team. A win wouldve got us a playoff (at least) that night and we never showed the heart like we could do. The less said about the following campaign the better. So for arguably the first time since summer 2002, i really feel as a team we're on the up again.

[Scram]

I think the final game of Kerr's reign was one of the most feeble performances Ive seen from an Irish team.

A win wouldve got us a playoff (at least) that night and we never showed the heart like we could do. The less said about the following campaign the better. So for arguably the first time since summer 2002, i really feel as a team we're on the up again.

Ian Harte had a free header two feet in front of goal in that game, Kerr can't be blamed for that miss. It was a bad performance and notable for the attitude of tossers like Stephen Carr gesticulating to Mattie Holland etc., definitely some of the worst team spirit seen in an Irish team. This has improved vastly under Trapatonni but the next two games will be the proof of the budino.

[Razors left peg]

Ian Harte had a free header two feet in front of goal in that game, Kerr can't be blamed for that miss. It was a bad performance and notable for the attitude of tossers like Stephen Carr gesticulating to Mattie Holland etc., definitely some of the worst team spirit seen in an Irish team. This has improved vastly under Trapatonni but the next two games will be the proof of the budino.

We ended that game though with Gary Doherty and Steven Elliot up front after substituing Robbie and Clinton Morrison, that was Kerrs fault and I was happy to see him sacked after it... total lack of balls to go for it when it was needed

[tetsujin1979]

We could still be playing that game and we wouldn't have scored! There was no drive from the manager, what was the point of still playing 4-4-2 in the second half when the Swiss were never going to leave their own area? Why not take off Carr and keep Robbie up front? Or even Holland?
I supported Kerr for the majority of his tenure, but the Cyprus away 1-0 win was the straw that broke the camel's back, and he had to go after the Swiss game.
I don't think he's ever really forgiven the FAI for it, and there's a lot of bile coming through in the tone of his articles in the Times since then

[Stuttgart88]

to say our last three attempts at qualification were "feable" is totally unfair. bar last one - we have not played a qualification game where we couldn't qualify since the 80's. a remarkable achievement for a nation of only 4+ million peopleThe last one was feeble as you say.

The 2004 Euro qualifiers started badly, got back on track with some decent results (but certainly the very least we'd have expected - not to mention an appalling home display against Albania) but which ended limply.

The next WC group was actually quite competitive. Say what you like about the dropped points against Israel but while management and players were very culpable, jaysus, we could have expected to have ridden our luck too.

I have to agree with Tets & Razor - I too had had enough - but I thought the way the media dealt with Kerr was savage and unforgivable, no matter what went on behind the scenes.

[Scram]

We ended that game though with Gary Doherty and Steven Elliot up front after substituing Robbie and Clinton Morrison, that was Kerrs fault and I was happy to see him sacked after it... total lack of balls to go for it when it was needed

Yes, preposterous but Harte's miss before all this was a shocker. After that we definitely didn't deserve to win the game. 15 minutes to go it should have been caution to the wind but NOOOO !

No the worst of his tenure though, that was losing the 2-0 lead v Israel because of the ridiculous substitution when Robbie went off.

[Razors left peg]

Yes, preposterous but Harte's miss before all this was a shocker. After that we definitely didn't deserve to win the game. 15 minutes to go it should have been caution to the wind but NOOOO !

No the worst of his tenure though, that was losing the 2-0 lead v Israel because of the ridiculous substitution when Robbie went off.

ah yeah Hartes miss was shocking but that can happen in football.As you said the substitutions in the Isreal game were awful too. I think we most of us will agree that between the Isreal and Switzerland home games it was Kerrs ultra conservatism that cost us the chance of qualifying and I thought in the way the man became so bitter after his sacking he further let himself down

[eirebhoy]

I think an awful lot of managers would have made the substitution Kerr did against Israel. I remember at the time thinking Mourinho almost certainly would have. Elliott hadn't played in about a month and a half before the Israel game. He had 1 friendly cap to his name. That substitution didn't lose us the 3 points. I'm not at all superstitious but it was just bad luck. 10 minutes before Keane went off Israel were just as dangerous as any time after Keane went off (they created their best chance of the game in that period actually). And not many players score headers from outside the box. For all the critisisms of Kerr I wish people would drop the Israel match. We deserved to win it about 5-0 or 5-1. Probably their heaviest drubbing in the whole campaign and they still got a point away from home.

[tetsujin1979]

I think an awful lot of managers would have made the substitution Kerr did against Israel. I remember at the time thinking Mourinho almost certainly would have. Mourinho usually exchanged like for like, and made 2 changes (at most) to the side with a substitution. Also, Mourinho has his squad for the whole season, plenty of time to go over alternative formations, players in different positions, etc. Kerr (and any international manger for that matter) have 7 days at most to drill the players with the formation they want, set plays, etc, very little time to go over alternatives.
Elliott hadn't played in about a month and a half before the Israel game. He had 1 friendly cap to his name. That substitution didn't lose us the 3 points.
It wasn't just that it was one substitution, it was 3 changes that effectively changed the left side of the team.

Kavanagh came on for Keane, and went into central midfield
Kilbane moved to left midfield (where Duff had been running riot)
Duff moved up front, to partner Morrison (had they ever been a partnership before??)

If Kerr was not convinced about Elliott's fitness after a week of training, what happened in the intervening 4 days to convince him to start Elliott on the following Wednesday?
Later in the same game, he brought off Reid, for Doherty. What was the point in bringing on a target man if he was taking off the best passer on the team?

Granted, we suffered an amount of bad luck with Andy O'Brien sent off for not punching their goalkeeper, and a header from outside the area going in, but Kerr only made it worse with those changes.

[Razors left peg]

Mourinho usually exchanged like for like, and made 2 changes (at most) to the side with a substitution. Also, Mourinho has his squad for the whole season, plenty of time to go over alternative formations, players in different positions, etc. Kerr (and any international manger for that matter) have 7 days at most to drill the players with the formation they want, set plays, etc, very little time to go over alternatives.

It wasn't just that it was one substitution, it was 3 changes that effectively changed the left side of the team.

Kavanagh came on for Keane, and went into central midfield
Kilbane moved to left midfield (where Duff had been running riot)
Duff moved up front, to partner Morrison (had they ever been a partnership before??)
If Kerr was not convinced about Elliott's fitness after a week of training, what happened in the intervening 4 days to convince him to start Elliott on the following Wednesday?
Later in the same game, he brought off Reid, for Doherty. What was the point in bringing on a target man if he was taking off the best passer on the team?

Granted, we suffered an amount of bad luck with Andy O'Brien sent off for not punching their goalkeeper, and a header from outside the area going in, but Kerr only made it worse with those changes.

Fair play, u summed up everything I wanted to say about that perfectly

[eirebhoy]

I've had more than enough debates on this so I'll leave it at this and we'll agree to this agree...

A good few minutes before Keane went off co-commentator Giles commentated on how Israel are starting to come into the game. Israel's best chance of the game was at 2-0 with Keane on the pitch.
We deserved to win the match by plenty of goals.

I don't think Elliott coming on for Keane would have put Ireland back on the front foot. I don't think it would have stopped Matt Holland conceding a foul on the half way line or Shay Given miskicking before O'Shea gave away the peno.

Freak result. It's rare we create so many chances and limit the opposition to so few without winning.

[tetsujin1979]

Fair enough eirebhoy, but how about this
The changes probably weren't the reason we conceded twice, but I reckon they're probably the reason we didn't score again