View Full Version : Can the eL ever be fully pro?
Having read Dermot Keelys piece in todays sun, he seems to reckon that the Ireland will never be able to sustain a fully professional league, stating that "in reality we are an amatuer league". His comments are a follow on from the difficulties Shels, Bohs and Shams are currently having.
Is he correct to poo poo the leagues aspirations of a full time set up, or are these the ramblingsof a bitter twisted little man whose own obvious failing to adapt to a more professional set up has left him feeling inadequate?
Please vote.
I think that for the coming season that only ourselves, Bohs and Shels will be capable of being fully pro. Pats have an outside chance.
The following season I would hope we would have 5 fully pro teams... the 4 metioned above and Longford.
I think that we will have a fully professional league before the end of the decade. To say that we won't is short sighted, defeatist talk and Keely is only spouting this rubbish because he knows he is finished in el football.
TommyT
09/12/2003, 7:55 PM
Longford have a good side but they're almost all part-timers. The 6 city clubs could be full-time it simpossible to see any of the others sustaining it. Though Sligo, Galway and Waterford could get to what Pats currently have.
A face
09/12/2003, 7:55 PM
He is dead right ........ Never
The way it is now .... but the league is getting better all the time, if you keep looking at the bad then fair enough. But there a load of positives from the year gone alone. And with the standard improving all the time then hopefully we'll (every club in the league, first included) be recruiting more fans all the time.
Keely is a bitter twisted FAILURE who walked out on Derry and nearly left them up the creek. He cannot be trusted and i'll never listen to a word he says. He has already show his character ..... and that is one that gives in easily ..... the league is better off with out him.
So that how he earns a crust now .... trying to rubbish the league in some rag for a couple of quid.
That dirty yellow bástard !!
Oh yeah .... i voted YES
While I think that certain clubs would be able to sustain themselves as a professional business, I don't think the league will ever be fully professional.
agreed too many clubs out there that arent as progressive as Rebel Army and in time we will leave them all behind.. so teams / clubs imo will remain semi pro / amateurish.. while prob City, the big club, the money Club and the homeless shud be able to sustain a fulltime setup..the rest as it stands now would need a dramtic change around.
long-term i'd love to see it.. short term aint gona happen though..but definately every club should be striving towards it as we are
Pat Dolan said at the start of the season he only wants professionals at Cork City. He explained what he ment, the model I think all clubs should all follow;
A Club being run in a fully professional manner off the pitch which all the backing and behind the scenes people there. Underage structures etc. Progress is being made on this thanks to the Uefa Licencing
Players who are 100% committed to give their best every week for Cork City, players who have the P & P.
Some players may have other jobs. Billy Woods sells cars afaik and plays football. He has two jobs, but he's a professional player. John O'Flynn plays football professionally full time but also works for Puma by promoting their boots.
Denmark won the European Championships with 7 part-time players in their squad. The fella who scored the winning goal was a school teacher. Nobody can argue that they werent professional whilst they might not have been full time.
tiktok
09/12/2003, 10:10 PM
think it's possible but only in the longer term, we have a long way to go
A face
09/12/2003, 11:30 PM
You'll all have to admit, there are a number of club have really come into their own in a short space of time.
All the work that is being done at the moment is all done with little or no support from the media, the government and the general public.
If we ever reel in the armchair supporters .... the league will really take off. If it can do this well without their support, imagine it with their support.
To turn around and say it will never take off, is completely off the wall and narrow minded.
City are seeing a good patch at the moment, but if every club was that progressive then lads, people will sit up and pay attention, no doubt about it. To say otherwise is wrong.
IMO no, it can never be fully pro. Shels and particularly Bohs have shown it's not sustainable (very few clubs have the non-match related income streams of Bohs). To early to say at Cork whether it will work or not, but it will good to drag this thread up in 2 years time if it doesn't.
The most sustainable model is the one that Pats are doing (Scandanavian originally), where they have negogiated 2 mornings a week off for the players from their jobs. They train 2 week day mornings and Sunday morning, and then evenings 3/4 times a week.
The reason it is not sustainable is because we don't have the support of the general sporting public, and therefore don't have the income stream. Cork maybe the exception, but when you take the actual crowd figures rather than your boasts I have my doubts.
we are unlikely to have a completely professional league, but we should have a completely professional organisation. We blame the 'media' (sometimes quite rightly) for not giving us enough attention, but we have to ask what can we do ourselves.
In France last season (don't know about this year) the LPF ran a TV ad campaign to get prople interested in the League. They tried to market 'Ligue 1' as a well packaged product. The LPF was basically trying to give ownership of the French league to the French people, alot of whom follow the Premiership, Serie A.
One thing we could start to do is put a large, visible eL logo outside a prominent part of each ground. This would give the league a better identity in the minds of the general public. This could also include the next home fixture.
From Unison/Irish Indo
Teams still over-spending in search for success (http://www.unison.ie/sportsdesk/stories.php3?ca=12&si=1091088)
The best paid player in the Eircom League is reported to be on an annual salary of €80,000, which works out at over €1,500 per week.
A lot of the full-time professionals are earning between €800 and €1,000 and there is at least one part-timer taking home €1,000 per week with a few others on €600.
There is one First Division player on €900 a week with another year of his contract to run. Other players in that lower division, where only a few hundred usually turn up to watch, are earning €400 to €500 per week.
A representative of an English Division Two side recently admitted that clubs in the Nationwide League were struggling to compete financially with Irish clubs.
"We are offering players £400 per week to play in England and they're heading to Ireland because they can get double that amount," he said.
So we're out paying the English 2nd Division, and people think a fully pro league is viable!
Actually also articles in the Indo about Kilkenny (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1091043&issue_id=10142) and Shels (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=94&si=1090962&issue_id=10142)
For once even Oily makes a good point about the Desmonds, Magniers, McManus' and Courtneys of this country...
some interesting figures from the Guardian... July 31, 2003 (http://football.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,9753,1009392,00.html)
23 In 1992-93 the average wage for a Premiership player was £75,000 per year. In 2001-02 the average wage for a Premiership player was £600,000.
24 In 1992-93 the average wage for a First Division player was £50,000 while in 2001-02 it was £200,000. Over the same period, the Second Division average wage went from £20,000 to £70,000 and the Division Three average wage increased from £15,000 in 1992-93 to £42,000 in 2001-02.
34 Average First Division attendance was 15,000 in 2001-02 and the Second Division average was 7,200. The Third Division average attendance was 4,345
If were paying second division standards we're a long way from their attendances... might be a case of apples and pears tho...
Originally posted by Xlex
34 Average First Division attendance was 15,000 in 2001-02 and the Second Division average was 7,200. The Third Division average attendance was 4,345
If were paying second division standards we're a long way from their attendances... might be a case of apples and pears tho...
On top of that, we're a good bit of their admission prices as well even if a club was matching that average attendance....
Sheridan
10/12/2003, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Xlex
If were paying second division standards we're a long way from their attendances... might be a case of apples and pears tho...
Here are the top non-league averages this season, which would appear to be a more reasonable target.
1 Hereford United (Nationwide Conference) 3799
2 Shrewsbury Town (Nationwide Conference) 3720
3 Aldershot Town (Nationwide Conference) 3291
4 Exeter City (Nationwide Conference) 3078
5 Chester City (Nationwide Conference) 2954
6 Woking (Nationwide Conference) 2343
7 Accrington Stanley (Nationwide Conference) 2191
8 Stevenage Borough (Nationwide Conference) 2070
9 Telford United (Nationwide Conference) 1991
10 Burton Albion (Nationwide Conference) 1975
There's no fooking way I'd settle for a league of conferance standard, which is why I completely reject a more reasonable target such as the examples provided below when a representative of an English Division Two side recently admitted that clubs in the Nationwide League were struggling to compete financially with Irish clubs.
Sheridan
10/12/2003, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Xlex
There's no fooking way I'd settle for a league of conferance standard, which is why I completely reject a more reasonable target such as the examples provided below when a representative of an English Division Two side recently admitted that clubs in the Nationwide League were struggling to compete financially with Irish clubs.
No-one's suggesting that there's any direct correlation between attendances and standards of play. Realistically, however, if Dublin City are pulling in Aldershot-style averages next season, I'll be happy...
TommyT
10/12/2003, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Sheridan
No-one's suggesting that there's any direct correlation between attendances and standards of play. Realistically, however, if Dublin City are pulling in Aldershot-style averages next season, I'll be happy...
You won't be.
That said could someone in Longford explain to Hanley that there are more supermarkets in Dublin than in places like Longford.
This guy seems to have lost the run of himself. Fair play to Longford for what they've achieved in recent years but it has to be remembered that Finglas alone has the same population as Co Longford.
pineapple stu
10/12/2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Sheridan
Here are the top non-league averages this season, which would appear to be a more reasonable target.
1 Hereford United (Nationwide Conference) 3799
2 Shrewsbury Town (Nationwide Conference) 3720
3 Aldershot Town (Nationwide Conference) 3291
4 Exeter City (Nationwide Conference) 3078
5 Chester City (Nationwide Conference) 2954
6 Woking (Nationwide Conference) 2343
7 Accrington Stanley (Nationwide Conference) 2191
8 Stevenage Borough (Nationwide Conference) 2070
9 Telford United (Nationwide Conference) 1991
10 Burton Albion (Nationwide Conference) 1975
Most of those clubs are fully-pro - eleven fully-pro teams in the Conference now, with Burton Albion looking to go pro in the next couple of years.
I think the Premier CAN be fully pro (a lot different from saying it definitely will get to that stage). The First Division is a different story though...
Originally posted by TommyT
This guy seems to have lost the run of himself. Fair play to Longford for what they've achieved in recent years but it has to be remembered that Finglas alone has the same population as Co Longford.
One comment and he's lost the run of himself? Hardly compares with Oily, Fat Pat, Keely etc etc
btw All I think he was suggesting is that it isn't really a national league at the moment. However, IMO it's up to the country clubs to change that on the pitch not through messing with the structures....
Seanie
10/12/2003, 12:38 PM
I don't believe that the eL can ever go fully pro simply because of the size of this country. Fully pro means that the entire premier division would consist of full-time professionals - but I don't think this country could support ten full-time clubs.
Despite what you hear, the GAA cannot afford to go pro. Rugby has only four pro entities in the provinces.
If the eL did go full-time pro, then I believe we would end up with a situation where three or four clubs would only survive while the others would be left fighting for their mere existence.
BTW - I think it's slightly unfair to compare Irish and English attendances. Going to a match on Saturday afternoon is an age long tradition in England. Attendances don't flutter to the extent that they do here when the entertainment or form slips. Just because 3,000 watch a conference game and 300 watch a first division game here doesn't mean the conference is 10 times better. I totally believe that the eL premier is on a par with the second division while the first div wouldn't be far behind the third div. BUT in Ireland we unfortunately don't have the SATURDAY AFTERNOON PILGRIMMAGE.
aye, we have pilgrimages alright, to the fooking pub on a Sunday for Ford Super Sunday... :rolleyes:
pineapple stu
10/12/2003, 12:45 PM
Is the Norweigan league fully pro??
Slightly off the point, but I agree with Seanie on the standard of the league. I watched Accrington v. Huddersfield and Burton v. Hartlepool on the BBC in the FA Cup - the standard of both games was woeful. Not just in terms of excitement or anything you could put down to the occasion, but in terms of general control, ability to play passing football, etc.
TommyT
10/12/2003, 1:00 PM
Originally posted by Macy
One comment and he's lost the run of himself? Hardly compares with Oily, Fat Pat, Keely etc etc
I'm basing it on the times article after the cup win aswell. Also WTF was Mathews on going on about clubs having gates as 12% of turnover even Shels aren't that bad.
Originally posted by pineapple stu
Slightly off the point, but I agree with Seanie on the standard of the league. I watched Accrington v. Huddersfield and Burton v. Hartlepool on the BBC in the FA Cup - the standard of both games was woeful. Not just in terms of excitement or anything you could put down to the occasion, but in terms of general control, ability to play passing football, etc.
i was at the FA Cup game last saturday between Swansea and Stevenege Boro, good game and while the swansea stadium was crap (looked like tolka only with much much less seats), and the crowd prob only 5kish, i thought the standard of play was of a higher level from most of what i have seen from EL clubs last season, players were faster, first touch much better..
and that irish striker for swansea.. Lee Trundel, fupping great player.. ala georgie..
Schumi
10/12/2003, 1:34 PM
Some of the figures Macy quoted above are nuts! A first division player on €900 a week is insane. That's €47,000 a year, at least a quarter of the gate receipts for the season for one player!
Haylock is on a fair auld slice...
McHugh must be too, to have stayed at Harps...
pineapple stu
10/12/2003, 4:48 PM
Originally posted by Schumi
Some of the figures Macy quoted above are nuts! A first division player on €900 a week is insane. That's €47,000 a year, at least a quarter of the gate receipts for the season for one player!
Standard wage at Bohs is a grand a week, tax free for most of them.
Don't think the whole league can. I think a 16 team premier of pro teams would be sustainable, with 2 or 3 regional feeder leagues instead of the first division, but there's no way all the clubs in the league as it is now could.
I don't understand any of this arguement. The same people that say the league can't go full time pro are the ones saying want the 10 team league extended. Its going to be really hard to advance the league which is why its easier to do with 10 teams than 14 or 16.
IMO the league may never have 16 full time pro teams but 10 has a lot bettrer chance of progressing.
Rovers chairman was on radio the other day & said their weekly expenses are 300% their revenues. Shel$ were fleecing Rovers for 4k per match at Tolka (not incl Security).
I have no sympathy for $hel$ cos they have continued to buy success by enticing players from other clubs with large pay packets. More sympathy for Bohss but their average wage bill is too high. Fair enough paying crowe & Hunt good money but most of the rest of their squad are average players that they don't need to entice with money. €900 in the 1st division is insane money!
Changes needed immeadiately.
- League to agree a total wages cap to a percentage of turnover.
- Clubs to negotiate more realistic wages with players based more on promotion, relegation, competition wins etc... e.g. If club relegated if player stays got to take 30% cut in wages etc...
- Dublin clubs to seriously look at ground sharing. Its so expensive for land, labour etc... that IMO be impossible for 4 Premier standard grounds in Dublin!
- FAI to help clubs that help themselves.
- FAI to have a plan to progress the league - Genesis 2? i.e. more than just glib comments about "club making CL group stages in 5 years"
If the league can' aspire to professional clubs (as opposed to fulltime players) than we might as well all give up.
tiktok
11/12/2003, 7:50 PM
on an earlier point 900euro a week probably doesn't correlate with 47000euro a year, i'm sure that'd only be over the course of the season....having said that, still too much considering what the clubs earn.
Duncan Gardner
13/12/2003, 9:54 AM
Pete- a fair point, but there's a balance between cutting the number of 'elite' clubs to those that can sustain full-time football, and avoiding a closed shop. The IL has reverted to 16 teams this term- and no-one's suggesting Limavady United can salary everyone- or anyone- full time.
I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.
There is no closed shop & its called relegation/promotion.
I've seen a lot of highlights of IL football & eL premier is a lot better in recent years. I would not group the IL & EL Premiers together. Even heard suggestions at the weekend that IL 16 team division has been a huge failure cos not enough quality.
Duncan Gardner
15/12/2003, 8:19 PM
Sorry, didn't explain fully. if the League of Ireland was fully profesional (ie, all squads full-time), I agree with you that it would have a relatively small number of teams. Maybe less than the present ten.
But...if this did happen, the gap between them and the rest would be huge, maybe unbridgeable. Like the rugby union premier in England, there would be pressure to abandon relegation-whether openly or effectively. Thus, a closed shop.
The reason I'm so confident about the higher standard at English conference level is down to the full-time status of most teams there. The players are fitter, so they'd usually beat Irish teams.
The Irish League won't gain more quality from expanding per se. But that last year's champions, the second best supported team, are in the bottom half in December* doesn't suggest the standard has fallen?
* I know, points deduction. But they'd still be miles behind the Ports anyway...
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I watch a lot of non-League around London. Both Irish premier divisions are probably at a level slightly below the Conference.
How can you explain Bohs beating a Bate Borisov team packed full of internationals? I'd like to see a conference team do something like that. Don't think there are any current internationals playing there either.
Of course the el can go full time pro, it boils down to money.
But I always respect Keely's point of view.
A face
15/12/2003, 9:15 PM
Most of the arguments here are based on the current status of the league.
To be honest, if the standard improves, you'd hope that the attenence, sponsorship and interest would follow suite.
Originally posted by A face
Most of the arguments here are based on the current status of the league.
To be honest, if the standard improves, you'd hope that the attenence, sponsorship and interest would follow suite.
Possibly, but bohs haven't managed that route successfully. Chicken and egg, but I think you have to have the financial side in place before going full time - speculating hasn't worked for Bohs and Shels.... I still think Pats are prehaps taking the right route copying the Danish model - mixture of morning and evening training, with players having a couple of mornings off work a week - including Sunday morning 3 morning sessions, 3 evening... More of a half way house between our idea of semi-pro and full time...
TommyT
16/12/2003, 11:55 AM
Duncan one the IL Premier is way behind the EL Premier. I'd expect Harps, Dublin City and Limerick to beat Cliftonville
Duncan Gardner
16/12/2003, 6:24 PM
Anyone watch BOTH LoI and IL, as it's hard to compare otherwise?
As for an Irish team beating Borisov, I don't think you can go on from this to assume they'd flourish in the English Conference or D3. As I said, full-time training and thus fitness are crucial.
Dr.Nightdub
16/12/2003, 10:43 PM
Macy, as far as I know, only two of the Pats squad at the start of last season had that arrangement re getting off work to train, the rest were full time. I'd imagine Delaney came back in on the same kind of arrangement as the other two (I presume you know about the PWC connection).
The fact that he wanted to hold onto his day job and not go full-time was apparently one of the reasons why Liam Kelly was let go.
Originally posted by Dr.Nightdub
Macy, as far as I know, only two of the Pats squad at the start of last season had that arrangement re getting off work to train, the rest were full time. I'd imagine Delaney came back in on the same kind of arrangement as the other two (I presume you know about the PWC connection).
The fact that he wanted to hold onto his day job and not go full-time was apparently one of the reasons why Liam Kelly was let go.
Wasnt there an article and posts on the Pats board saying that ye had only 6 full timers, the otheres got time off work??
TommyT
17/12/2003, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Anyone watch BOTH LoI and IL, as it's hard to compare otherwise?
As for an Irish team beating Borisov, I don't think you can go on from this to assume they'd flourish in the English Conference or D3. As I said, full-time training and thus fitness are crucial.
I've watched games in both leagues (both divisions in the case of down south), I stand over my statement.
The Irish team that beat Borisov is full-time. I think Bohs could beat any of the bottom 30 of the Football League, but like Irish players who go over they'd find the 46 game season against physically stronger opponents very wearing and would fall away in a 3rd division title race or have great difficulty staying in the 2nd
Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Wasnt there an article and posts on the Pats board saying that ye had only 6 full timers, the otheres got time off work??
That's what I thought - everyone was shocked that you weren't nearly all full time. It even had Collins talking about the model he was following, saying they couldn't afford to go full time...
joeSoap
17/12/2003, 2:30 PM
Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Denmark won the European Championships with 7 part-time players in their squad. The fella who scored the winning goal was a school teacher. Nobody can argue that they werent professional whilst they might not have been full time.
John Jensen and Kim Vilfort scored in the final....I thought both were fully pro. Jensen at the time with Brondby and later Arsenal, and Vilfort who spent his entire career at Brondby??? I could be wrong though...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.