Taxi Driver Protests

[pete]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0309/breaking47.htm)



A report on the taxi industry has recommended that a moratorium should not be placed on the issuing of new licences.

The Goodbody report entitled Economic Review of Small Public Service Vehicle (SPSV), published by the Taxi Regulator Kathleen Doyle today, said the current regulatory structure in the taxi industry was “the most appropriate and successful model and should be continued.”

Earnings in the taxi industry have not collapsed and while drivers have to work harder to meet their income expectations, there is evidence that demand still exceeds supply at peak times, the report found.


Bit of blow for taxi drivers looking to stop other people enetring their industry. Would be crazy for a government to stop people joining that trade with current unemployment numbers.

[Bald Student]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0309/breaking47.htm)



Bit of blow for taxi drivers looking to stop other people enetring their industry. Would be crazy for a government to stop people joining that trade with current unemployment numbers.

True but I wouldn't trust those consultant reports. From what I can gather, they're mostly used to add 'independent' verification to whatever decision has already been made.

[brianw82]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0309/breaking47.htm)



Bit of blow for taxi drivers looking to stop other people enetring their industry. Would be crazy for a government to stop people joining that trade with current unemployment numbers.

The Gov seem to like this as an easy answer.

Unemployed? No problem! Just start driving a taxi, that'll sort you out!

I'd like to know where their 'evidence' comes from. Everyone I know is always saying how easy it is to get a taxi now after a night out.

[OneRedArmy]

The taxi drivers deserve no sympathy. They resisted:
1) any increase in taxi numbers at all for years, even when you had to wait hours for a taxi during business hours
2) the Aircoach service - and blocked the coaches for a few days when it started
3) minimum standards in relation to size and age of car - is a 15 year old hatchback really a taxi?

Glad to see them feel the pain.

[John83]

True but I wouldn't trust those consultant reports. From what I can gather, they're mostly used to add 'independent' verification to whatever decision has already been made.
I have no confidence in these reports either. I've been looking for it on the internet, to see what they did. It's here (http://www.taxiregulator.ie/files/publications/Economic_%20Review%20_09_03_2009.pdf).

[John83]

I have no confidence in these reports either. I've been looking for it on the internet, to see what they did. It's here (http://www.taxiregulator.ie/files/publications/Economic_%20Review%20_09_03_2009.pdf).
The numbers are based on a telephone survey of 1022 people and show a big increase on 2005 - 28 million journeys to 40 million in Dublin alone (Fig. 3.3). I'd be a little suspicious of the statistical value of a thousand people (especially in a telephone survey).

I wonder did anyone consider that their Fig 3.4 is distorted by the time of day and the day of the week they phone people? (I really doubt they were ringing people at 2am on a Sunday morning.) It's not a big deal since the changes in the percentages are the important bit. Thing is, they've shown that the total number of trips has changed substantially, and then they start comparing percentages of different numbers. That's retarded. You have to start multiplying numbers to see what's going on.

Take for example the period 1-3am. The percentages of journeys taken in that window are:
2005: 28%
2008: 21.7%

But total journeys:
2005 77M
2008 100M

Multiplying the numbers gives almost exactly the same answer.

Anyway, I'm not going to spend any more time reading this. I'm left with the feeling that whoever wrote this scraped a pass in statistics in his business course.

[Bald Student]

Anyway, I'm not going to spend any more time reading this. I'm left with the feeling that whoever wrote this scraped a pass in statistics in his business course.

Are the mistakes directed towards a particular conclusion or is it simple incompetence?

[dahamsta]

The taxi drivers deserve no sympathy.Absolutely. The "we're all starving" rubbish wore thin a long time ago, these guys need a lesson in basic market forces: If you can't afford to live on the revenue, get out of the business and leave it to people who can. After a while, the market will settle and everyone'll be better off. Apart from them obviously, because they'll just find something else to bitch about, obviously.

[John83]

Are the mistakes directed towards a particular conclusion or is it simple incompetence?
No bias that I saw, but I only read a portion of it thoroughly.

[Ringo]

Absolutely. The "we're all starving" rubbish wore thin a long time ago, these guys need a lesson in basic market forces: If you can't afford to live on the revenue, get out of the business and leave it to people who can. After a while, the market will settle and everyone'll be better off. Apart from them obviously, because they'll just find something else to bitch about, obviously.

I have little sympathy for Taxi drivers after the way they bullied people & still continue to. I’m sick of listening to “we live in a democracy” crap. These guys have openly said their going to close down the city. We have a right to be able to get to work & a right to earn a living. These guys are just thugs trying to intimidate people into giving in to them. The Gardai need to enforce the law to them as to anyone else. Last weeks protest saw them breaking the law & nothing happening. Parking at ranks while not available for work, driving in bus lanes while not available for work. This needs to be nipped in the bud now.

[Macy]

3) minimum standards in relation to size and age of car - is a 15 year old hatchback really a taxi?
I thought that was one of the taxi drivers complaints about the new entrants?


The Gov seem to like this as an easy answer.

Unemployed? No problem! Just start driving a taxi, that'll sort you out!
There appears to be cases where Social Welfare are giving supports to people to get licences.

I do have a degree of sympathy for some of the drivers. I know a lad who used to work with the missus who took a massive loan to buy a plate and gave up the day job to be a taxi driver, and is probably still trying to pay it of now (even though since deregulation it's worthless). However, some of the real old school ones who facilitated the "cosying" method of ripping off the young guys I have no sympathy for. However, I would say it doesn't really make me comfortable thinking of guys doing stupid hours driving around all day and all night - at the very time the RSA is running ads about driving when tired.

If it can be shown that you can't make a living whilst being in compliance with the working time directive, then imo it is reasonable to ask for a halt on numbers of licences.

btw, No report is ever independent. By definition, whoever comissions it has an agenda, and that inevitably comes through in the final report. The ones that don't follow that, never get published.

[pete]

Taxi driving is an unskilled trade so I am unsure how much they expect to earn. It is also an almost exclusively cash only business so I wouldn't trust their declared incomes. Even before deregulation their decalred incomes were a joke. Just like working in a bar the busy times are unsocialable hours so taxi drivers need to accept that.

It should be remembered that taxi drivers caused deregulation by trying to stop the Minister issuing 300 new plates but the courts ruled Minister could not restict numbers in any way. Given the way they behaved up to that point I don't have any sympathy for the collective.

While I don't favour a cap on numbers there should be a big improvement in minimum standards of vehicles etc...

[noby]

I don't know the full story, and haven't read the report, but on the news lastnight they said applications for licences have dropped from 250ish for March '08 to 33 for Feb '09, so they didn't see the point in a moratorium, when there just isn't a big demand there any more.
It was also mentioned that a taxi driver now has to work 52 hours a week to come out with the same money (whatever that is), which, if you ask any other self-employed person, seems fair enough.

[Macy]

It was also mentioned that a taxi driver now has to work 52 hours a week to come out with the same money (whatever that is), which, if you ask any other self-employed person, seems fair enough.
I'm not self employed, but surely depends on the business. Isn't the limit for transport drivers 48 hours a week, due to increased dangers to themselves and other road users of fatigue?

btw you could look at it another way, if demand is so low, a stop on issuing them would also matter little.

[noby]

Isn't the limit for transport drivers 48 hours a week, due to increased dangers to themselves and other road users of fatigue?


I have no idea. Is that 48 hours driving? If it is, I wonder how much of the taxi drivers' 52 hour week is spent at ranks.



btw you could look at it another way, if demand is so low, a stop on issuing them would also matter little.

True.

[dahamsta]

I'm not self employed, but surely depends on the business.Of course it does. Al Pacino is self-employed, and he hardly has to work the same hours as the local window cleaner.

[Billsthoughts]

I agree with Macy. a bit of common sense with no pre ordained agenda wouldnt go astray at the moment in relation to taxis. we cant return to the situation of a few years back but the situation at the mo is ridiculous. I read during the week that there are more taxi licences in dublin than new york. a walk down the street any nite will tell you there are tons of them knocking around. I actually stayed after hours in a bar last weekend only to come out to a row of taxis at 6 in the morning..!!!

[Mr A]

Anybody who has a demonstrated knowledge of their area and a car that meets decent standards should get a license.

I have damn all sympathy for the taxi drivers, but there's people using bangers as taxis and who don't even know where whole areas of Galway are, never mind estates within them.

[Lionel Ritchie]

a walk down the street any nite will tell you there are tons of them knocking around. ...except, as this report stated, supply still isn't meeting demand at peak times.


I actually stayed after hours in a bar last weekend only to come out to a row of taxis at 6 in the morning..!!!

In fairness the night is just about over at 6am and most drivers would be getting ready to head home. If you'd been looking for one 2-3 hours earlier you may not have had such ready access.

Here in Limerick there does indeed appear to be over-supply during the day. But I encountered problems recently trying to get one after midnight on a friday. Also -over the Christmas holidays it was apparent that they're also still cherry-picking the fairs they'll pick up.

Friends of mine who live in Clonlara (six miles from Limerick) were told at 3.30AM they should call back at 5AM as they'd not get anyone to take them out of the city centre at that time. They were deadly serious -expected people to stand around in the sleet for an hour and a half.

Slap it up 'em if that's their attitude.

As for standard of cars etc... the cars should be clean, NCT'd and subject to inspection. I've no time for this nonsense that cars should be under seven or six years old or whatever it is. Frankly I'm more concerned about the standard of driver -which has a wide degree of competence and compliance at present I reckon.

[mypost]

Absolutely. The "we're all starving" rubbish wore thin a long time ago, these guys need a lesson in basic market forces: If you can't afford to live on the revenue, get out of the business and leave it to people who can. After a while, the market will settle and everyone'll be better off. Apart from them obviously, because they'll just find something else to bitch about, obviously.

I was in two well-known South Dublin coastal suburbs a few weeks ago, in the centre of them, and there were 0 taxis. There's plenty of work available if the drivers look hard enough for it.

Some Senator pointed out in the Seanad last week, that when he was in a taxi with a non-national driver, the driver attempted to drive up Grafton Street!! Basic geography knowledge should be expected of someone wanting to get into the taxi business.

[pete]

Thre is definitely money for some taxi drivers f they are willing to work the peak hours.

Got a taxi last year in a lovely full leather nearly new Merc - definitely not the cheapest Merc. As we drove past the Audi showroom we commented on the R8 sportscar & then he said he was looking at getting a new Audi A6. :eek:

[Billsthoughts]

...except, as this report stated, supply still isn't meeting demand at peak times.
.

disagree. get a fair bit of taxis in dublin and never have too much issue with them. At 6 oc clock the nite is over so you would expect there to be fewer taxis stil around. instead there was ques of them. I dont know what it is like in limerick but in dubliun there is lenty of taxis.

[NeilMcD]

I agree with Bill on this. Since my injury I have had to get more taxis than usual and I have noticed there is loads about nearly all the time. I think getting rid of the nightlinks during the week will help them a little bit maybe. Not that I agree with the policy of cutting back on nightlinks.

[John83]

I agree with Bill on this. Since my injury I have had to get more taxis than usual and I have noticed there is loads about nearly all the time. I think getting rid of the nightlinks during the week will help them a little bit maybe. Not that I agree with the policy of cutting back on nightlinks.
Why on earth would you cut effective public transport that's well used and force people to take private transport that costs far more?

[Dodge]

Why on earth would you cut effective public transport that's well used and force people to take private transport that costs far more?

Well Dublin Bus say the midweek nightlinks weren't profitable

[John83]

Well Dublin Bus say the midweek nightlinks weren't profitable
Really? That's pathetic. I sometimes think that company could make a loss if they were... hmm, since the fall from grace of the banking industry, who qualifies as the bullet-proof money-spinner now? The pharmaceutical industry? OPEC?

[Bald Student]

Really? That's pathetic. I sometimes think that company could make a loss if they were... hmm, since the fall from grace of the banking industry, who qualifies as the bullet-proof money-spinner now? The pharmaceutical industry? OPEC?

There's more to the nightlinks than is immediately obvious. Dublin Bus fired a bunch of drivers and only reinstated them on condition that they work late shifts from Friday to Monday. Chopping the midweek nightlinks is probably a part of a similar industrial relations move.

[dfx-]

Well Dublin Bus say the midweek nightlinks weren't profitable

I heard that too. Since they were largely running them for pure profit and that it only takes about 10-15 people on a nightlink to break even for that bus supposedly, I find it difficult to believe the rationale for completely removing them. Especially when certain nightlinks had people left sitting on the stairs for lack of seats (not because they couldn't climb them..)

[Lionel Ritchie]

disagree. get a fair bit of taxis in dublin and never have too much issue with them. At 6 oc clock the nite is over so you would expect there to be fewer taxis stil around. instead there was ques of them. I dont know what it is like in limerick but in dubliun there is lenty of taxis. ...which again is in line with the report -which states it is taking the taxi drivers longer to make the return or derive the income they've come to expect ...not that the income isn't there to be made.

[Billsthoughts]

...which again is in line with the report -which states it is taking the taxi drivers longer to make the return or derive the income they've come to expect ...not that the income isn't there to be made.

come on!!!
legally all bars / clubs must close at 230 in dublin. So your saying that ques of them still on the streets at 6 is a sign that they are just taking a little longer than usual to make the money?

Would be a sign of desperation to me.

I dont need a report to tell me what I see with my own eyes.

There are way too many taxis in Dublin.

[NeilMcD]

Why on earth would you cut effective public transport that's well used and force people to take private transport that costs far more?

Read my post again please.

[Lionel Ritchie]

come on!!!
legally all bars / clubs must close at 230 in dublin. So your saying that ques of them still on the streets at 6 is a sign that they are just taking a little longer than usual to make the money?

Would be a sign of desperation to me.

I dont need a report to tell me what I see with my own eyes.

There are way too many taxis in Dublin.

No it may well be taking a lot longer to make the money they've come to expect. But the very fact that they're remaining on the rank at six in the morning means that, unless they're complete morons, they have a reasonable expectation that the queue is going to tip away and they'll get a fare. Otherwise a quick bit of maths would tell them they'd be better off at home in bed.

I was out here in Limerick last night and there was indeed plenty of taxis about, as there should be, but they were getting fares handily enough. The days of the 50 yard queue of people waiting for a cab that may well then cherry pick it's fares are gone for the most part (see my 2nd previous post) but so they should be as well.

[Macy]

It seems to me the intention of the regulator is to facilitate the race to the bottom. I'm not sure what people's problem is with people making a decent living? Having it a low paid job does nothing for the quality of service or the security of the travelling public. There's a awful lot of bitterness about people earning an alright living around at the moment. Maybe it's jealousy, I don't know. All handy for the Government and their pals as the focus is still away from their millions...

Problems with there still being demand at peak times says more about our stupid licencing laws than anything to do with taxi's.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Problems with there still being demand at peak times says more about our stupid licencing laws than anything to do with taxi's. Absolutely agree here. Our licencing laws create havoc in any number of ways and the taxis are a victim of them here too. Which also means stats about Dublin having more taxis than New York have to be taken in context and with a pinch of salt as all the pubs, clubs and late night hostelries don't similtaneously slam the shutters down at the same time there. But this is what we're stuck with.


I'm not sure what people's problem is with people making a decent living? Having it a low paid job does nothing for the quality of service or the security of the travelling public. There's a awful lot of bitterness about people earning an alright living around at the moment. . I've certainly no problem with them earning a fortune if they can. But as I see it the taxi industry is there to provide a service to the public -not the public being there to provide a cornered market for the taxis.

The system, as it pertained for eons -with people standing in queues for hours, late at night and in all weather had to stop. Supply was simply nowhere near demand and the industry opposed all attempts to rectify the situation.

Things being as they are - I think part time/peak time drivers (either driving those times by choice as is now or by restrictive licence which may be a way forward) will have to be part of the mix as that's when the demand is there.

[Billsthoughts]

No it may well be taking a lot longer to make the money they've come to expect. But the very fact that they're remaining on the rank at six in the morning means that, unless they're complete morons, they have a reasonable expectation that the queue is going to tip away and they'll get a fare. Otherwise a quick bit of maths would tell them they'd be better off at home in bed.

Wasnt a taxi rank. They were obviously driving around at 6 in a desperate attempt to make a living.
Agree with Macy. People seem to begrudging other people a living.
What you are seeing now is a lot of drivers who just dont have the knowledge to be taxi drivers.
Having licences for certain peak times would just be unmanageable and uneforceable. How many people do you know that are still driving around on provisionals eventho it was supposed to eb zero tolerance to them?

[pete]

Introducing standards so that all vehicles are wheelchair accessible & the qualities of vehicles is improved (no vans) would be one way of indirectly reducing the numbers of taxi drivers. If someone wanted to enter the business it would require reasonable investment so would discourage 1 day a week drivers. If the Unions approached from that angle they would get more support.

The problem with limiting numbers is who decides the number?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Wasnt a taxi rank. They were obviously driving around at 6 in a desperate attempt to make a living.
Agree with Macy. Doesn't make a difference whether it was rank or not. Thye still had a reasonable expectation of picking up a fare. I've relatives in this biz by the way and I can tell you they frequently don't call it a night til after seven on a saturday night-sunday morning and that's working a hinterland much smaller than Dublin.


What you are seeing now is a lot of drivers who just dont have the knowledge to be taxi drivers. Annecdotely their appears to be something to this ...but that comes down to this country being awash with guidelines and recommendations and being direly short of some hard and fast rules that are enforcable or enforced.



Having licences for certain peak times would just be unmanageable and uneforceable. How many people do you know that are still driving around on provisionals eventho it was supposed to eb zero tolerance to them?

See my previous. But I will say that with a bit of imagination the thing could be tightened up. Part of the problem with driver quality at the moment appears to come from the practice of renting out plates.

As for inability to police peak time drivers
-Make all full time PSVs respray the cars egg yellow ...mandatory.
-stop issueing plates/licences for the forseeable.
-create a peak time licence and make all peak-time PSVs respray tarmac jacket Orange and only allow them work from 9pm-9am thurs-sun and named holidays. I also think this'd be an excellent opportunity to review the class of vehicle that's required for this work. There's no reason to my mind why peak time PSVs can't be Puntos, Clios, electric 2 seaters in built up areas. Cheaper to run, better for the environment.

[tetsujin1979]

Was out in Dublin last night and the previous night. Every ranked I passed was packed with taxis, should have been no problems getting home.

Just a thought, is this another side effect of the recession - less money to spend = less people going out at night = less people for the same number of taxis so drivers have to work longer hours for the same number of fares?

[pete]

-create a peak time licence and make all peak-time PSVs respray tarmac jacket Orange and only allow them work from 9pm-9am thurs-sun and named holidays. I also think this'd be an excellent opportunity to review the class of vehicle that's required for this work. There's no reason to my mind why peak time PSVs can't be Puntos, Clios, electric 2 seaters in built up areas. Cheaper to run, better for the environment.

Who decides which taxi driver gets the peak & off peak plate? I guess no driver will want a 9am-9pm plate?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Who decides which taxi driver gets the peak & off peak plate? I guess no driver will want a 9am-9pm plate?

Well unless cause to revoke licences arises you can't take a licence off someone so you'd be looking at a moratorium on full time plates/licences and only making peak time ones available for new applicants.

I'm guessing the peak time one would be commensurately cheaper so it might not be an unattractive option.

oh ...and that was 9PM to 9AM Pete ...just to be clear.

[Ringo]

*PROTEST* * A protest will take place tomorrow (Fri 20th) from 8am onwards. Two separate convoys of slow-moving vehicles will travel from the Liffey Valley Shopping Centre, and the Airside Retail Park in Swords into Fitzwilliam Square and O’ Connell St. in the city centre. * A separate group of protestors will gather in the vicinity of Parnell Square, O'Connell Street and College Green area. A group of slow-moving vehicles will drive in a continuous convoy up and down O’ Connell St. * Motorists should be aware of possible delays and allow extra time for any journeys. The protest is expected to finish by 2pm.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/

Great , just what we need on a Friday.:mad: Really winning the public over with these protests:rolleyes:

[Dodge]

Thanks for that Ringo, didn't realise this was happening

[pete]

No sign of them on the quays at 9.45.

[Dodge]

No sign of them on the quays at 9.45.

They got there an hour later, having left Liffey Valley at 8am

[Macy]

They got there an hour later, having left Liffey Valley at 8am
It was just the route they took.

[pete]

It was just the route they took.

They probably did not know the directions :D

[sligoman]

Isn't there a law for driving too slow? Can't the gardai do something about all their 'slow moving vehicles' causing delays?

[Macy]

They probably did not know the directions :D
I was more thinking they treated it as if they had tourist fare in the back.

[Ringo]

on a serious note :mad:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/daffodil-day-hit-by-strike-1679731.html


PLANNED protest by taxi drivers will go ahead today despite widespread public appeals for it to be cancelled -- because it clashes with the Irish Cancer Society's Daffodil Day fundraiser.

Up to 2,500 drivers will take to the streets to demand change in the industry from 8am to 2pm tomorrow, despite a poll by RTE Radio 1's 'Liveline' yesterday, which found that over 6,000 of some 7,000 respondents wanted the protest called off.

Frank Byrne, public relations officer for Taxi Drivers for Change, said the organising committee "didn't realise" the protest clashed with Daffodil Day, adding "it's probably too late to call it off".

Jill Clark, head of fundraising with the Irish Cancer Society said: "If the public is concerned about the strike's impact on Daffodil Day, then the Irish Cancer Society is also concerned."

[Dodge]

Don't think its that relevent tbh. The majority of people in Dublin City centre on a Friday would come in regardless of taxi action.

Came in at normal time this morning, and no major delays...