The Standard

[Angus]

Morning all - esoteric question.

My buddies in Ingerlund regularly ask me how the standard here compares to there.

My thinking is:

Our best sides (Bohs, Pats, Drogs, Cork) are top half of League 1.

Our mid table sides are (Sligo, Hoops, Bray etc) are bottom half of League 1

The rest, including our fizzy league are League 2

In terms of Scotland, outside the old firm, our best sides are relegation strugglers in the SPL but would do OK in Scottish Div 1

Am I completely mad ?

[Keen2win]

Morning all - esoteric question.

My buddies in Ingerlund regularly ask me how the standard here compares to there.

My thinking is:

Our best sides (Bohs, Pats, Drogs, Cork) are top half of League 1.

Our mid table sides are (Sligo, Hoops, Bray etc) are bottom half of League 1

The rest, including our fizzy league are League 2

In terms of Scotland, outside the old firm, our best sides are relegation strugglers in the SPL but would do OK in Scottish Div 1

Am I completely mad ?

A bit!

[Sheridan]

It's impossible to compare across national systems, and an indication of our post-colonial hangover or maybe just our infantile awe of bright lights that people consistently try to do so. Not only are there Premier Division clubs who would struggle in those two-bit English leagues named after heroes of classical antiquity, but there are first-teamers at our top clubs who wouldn't make it in those leagues. Equally, there are players in the LoI who could hold their own in the English Premier League.

The joy of the League of Ireland is that, if nothing else, it's unique. Let's celebrate it for what it is and leave the rest to the armchair fans.

[thischarmingman]

My thinking is:

Our best sides (Bohs, Pats, Drogs, Cork) are top half of League 1.



You're about a year out on this one...and you forgot us in that group. ;)



The joy of the League of Ireland is that, if nothing else, it's unique.

Exactly, I'd like to think the top clubs could hold their own in the Championship but it's virtually impossible to determine.

[Rovers Maniac]

To be honest you may as well include the top 7 or so teams as i believe there is nothing beteen must of the premier league this year. I would say the league is on par with top of division 2 maybe bottom of division 1

[gustavo]

The rest, including our fizzy league are League 2


:confused:

[Dodge]

It's impossible to compare across national systems, and an indication of our post-colonial hangover or maybe just our infantile awe of bright lights that people consistently try to do so. Not only are there Premier Division clubs who would struggle in those two-bit English leagues named after heroes of classical antiquity, but there are first-teamers at our top clubs who wouldn't make it in those leagues. Equally, there are players in the LoI who could hold their own in the English Premier League.

The joy of the League of Ireland is that, if nothing else, it's unique. Let's celebrate it for what it is and leave the rest to the armchair fans.

Top post

[A face]

You're about a year out on this one...and you forgot us in that group. ;)

I wouldn't be writing us off this year at all. Not saying we'll take silverware evren before a ball is kicked but we will be there or there abouts this year i think.

[TheBoss]

The Bottom half of League 1, and whole of League 2 and the best conference sides are very similar.

[5ForKeeps]

Being honest the only club the LOI who would fare well would be Derry City IMO...

Besides St. Pats, Derry's style of play would grace the Championship...Bohs would do well in top half of League One and possibly Sligo Rovers under Paul Cook would do well as he has good knowledge of the lower leagues in England.

After that most of the clubs would be League 1 or 2 obscurity.

[Dodge]

Recently been watching a lot of the Championship. There is no style. Birmingham in 2nd play awful football.

[soccerc]

Birmingham in 2nd play awful football.

Football, you call that football? :D

[noby]

Sligo Rovers under Paul Cook would do well as he has good knowledge of the lower leagues in England.



You're really over-thinking this.

[Réiteoir]

Being honest the only club the LOI who would fare well would be Derry City IMO...

Besides St. Pats, Derry's style of play would grace the Championship...Bohs would do well in top half of League One and possibly Sligo Rovers under Paul Cook would do well as he has good knowledge of the lower leagues in England.

After that most of the clubs would be League 1 or 2 obscurity.

So - a team which won the Double and only lost 2 League games the whole of last season whilst conceding the least amount of goals in the League for decades would fare worse than a team which thinks the League Cup is a serious competition?*

I'll have what he's smoking - seems to do the job nicely....


(* - Apologies to Derry fans - was the first thing I could pluck out of the air to summarise yourselves)

[Celdrog]

So - a team which won the Double and only lost 2 League games the whole of last season whilst conceding the least amount of goals in the League for decades would fare worse than a team which thinks the League Cup is a serious competition?*

thought that was a bit mad myself, that and the Drogs being one of our top sides now:D

[Dodge]

Football, you call that football? :D

yes, soccerc

;)

[KevB76]

In terms of Scotland, outside the old firm, our best sides are relegation strugglers in the SPL but would do OK in Scottish Div 1



Just so happens I was at Hearts v Aberdeen last weekend (my first Scottish football experience), and was quite surprised how little difference there is between them and our better premier sides. Some of their play in the first half would have had us groaning in dismay at Jackman Park, I kid you not.
I think Hearts are 3rd or 4th in SPL at the moment.

[A face]

Just so happens I was at Hearts v Aberdeen last weekend (my first Scottish football experience), and was quite surprised how little difference there is between them and our better premier sides. Some of their play in the first half would have had us groaning in dismay at Jackman Park, I kid you not.
I think Hearts are 3rd or 4th in SPL at the moment.

I have seen a fair bit of the SPL now, admittedly not any of the old firm though and we are definitely on par with them. And i base that on having seen games live over there.

[Hairy Bowsie]

It's impossible to compare across national systems, and an indication of our post-colonial hangover or maybe just our infantile awe of bright lights that people consistently try to do so. Not only are there Premier Division clubs who would struggle in those two-bit English leagues named after heroes of classical antiquity, but there are first-teamers at our top clubs who wouldn't make it in those leagues. Equally, there are players in the LoI who could hold their own in the English Premier League.

The joy of the League of Ireland is that, if nothing else, it's unique. Let's celebrate it for what it is and leave the rest to the armchair fans.

Spot on. I don't understand why people still felt the need to answer the original question after reading this post. You CANNOT compare and it poxy pointless in trying.

[A face]

It's impossible to compare across national systems, and an indication of our post-colonial hangover or maybe just our infantile awe of bright lights that people consistently try to do so. Not only are there Premier Division clubs who would struggle in those two-bit English leagues named after heroes of classical antiquity, but there are first-teamers at our top clubs who wouldn't make it in those leagues. Equally, there are players in the LoI who could hold their own in the English Premier League.

The joy of the League of Ireland is that, if nothing else, it's unique. Let's celebrate it for what it is and leave the rest to the armchair fans.


Spot on. I don't understand why people still felt the need to answer the original question after reading this post. You CANNOT compare and it poxy pointless in trying.

I think every LOI fan would agree with that. Its chalk and Chinese, you cannot compare ..... but it will always will be, and most bar stoolers seem to think that LOI is conference level and no higher. They dont go to games in either country and will never find out for themselves.

[pete]

Recently been watching a lot of the Championship. There is no style. Birmingham in 2nd play awful football.

It might be a cliche but the Championship from what I have over the last few years is long ball i.e. little passing in midfield.

Based on recent season the LOI Premier would range from League One to Conference standard. By 'n large we probably play more passing football.

[Angus]

I agree when folks say that this is a pointless exercise - abislutely correct - it serves no other purpose than barstooling and is in the same vein as "the Man U team of 99 would beat the Liverpool team of 79" etc etc

However, there is some method to my whatever

If we get a ballpark consensus of the level - let's assume it is League 1, there is then a valid comparison to be made around attendances and fundamentally how one attracts more people to the LOI

I am convinved that attendances at LOI is only partially related to quality and is in fact down to other "non football" factors

Hartlepool, Lincoln, Northampton all have attendances that LOI clubs would kill for - and if we are saying the quality is about the same, then the natual next step is to figure out what else keeps people away in their droves.

Assume somethign ridiculous (among a growing list of ridiculous things in this post) - if the LOI became Championship quality tomorrow, would attandances increase materially ? I don't think so - I think they would increase all right but not to the same degree as, say, Leinster, in the fizzy league in the p***ing rain.

So, where I end up is that there is a limited appetitie in ireland for a "fan" culture i.e. tipping up every week - we love events, we love Waterford hurling and Dublin football but they only play 5 meaningful games a year.

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/englandcontent.htm

so, yes I am going completely mad....

[BohDiddley]

Spot on Angus. Great post.

[Pablo Escobar]

we love Waterford hurling and Dublin football but they only play 5 meaningful games a year.

That line sums up the general Irish sporting public!

[oriel]

100% agree, we just love to cherry pick our sporting highlights, from interviews with alex ferguson on irish morning radio to around 10 big gaa football games every summer, to only big irish international football games, and the less than 5 big home rugby international games - to the champs lge final - a great chat at work about english football - then all major golf finals (but only the final day - same for wimbledon) to the grand prix season - actually anything but committ to supporting a club and going week in week out.

This is why we will never compete with the wonderful fans of the clubs mentioned above like Northampton, Hartlepool and Lincoln, etc whatever their position and previous result, they will still pull in 5,000 + week in/week out

Fickle.ie

[noby]

Hartlepool, Lincoln, Northampton all have attendances that LOI clubs would kill for - and if we are saying the quality is about the same, then the natual next step is to figure out what else keeps people away in their droves.



Fair enough points being made, but in relation to England, and specifically the three examples given, you would have to take population into consideration. They seem to range from 100K to over 200k population.

[peadar1987]

Looking at League 2, Braford have the highest attendance, at 13000 average, from a metropolitan area of 500,000, the greater Cork area has a population of about 400,000

Looking down the league, the Luton area has a population of about 230 000, and they average 6000, Port Vale are located in Stoke-on-Trent, with a population of about 350 000, and have to compete with Premier division Stoke City, who draw 26000+ each week, they get crowds of about 5500. It goes on like this

All of these clubs have to compete with far stronger teams in their own country, sometimes just up the road, and they are in the fourth tier of the national league. The LOI Premier averages what, about 1300?

The main point is, Irish fans are ridiculously fickle. In the 2002 World Cup Campaign, we would have filled Croker 3 times over for the Cyprus games, now we're not winning, everyone is a rugby supporter. If we lose at that, they'll support bogball.

[osarusan]

Fair enough points being made, but in relation to England, and specifically the three examples given, you would have to take population into consideration. They seem to range from 100K to over 200k population.


This is a question I and another Limerick fan were asking each other a while ago.

What is considered a good percentage of the catchment area to get going to a game? I know that being in a higher division and having support bases overlapping means that fans can and do travel to support teams much farther away than their local team, but there must be a number that clubs should aim for.

In a town/city of say, 50,000 people, with another 50,000 outside the city in the surrounding areas, how many fans can a club reasonably expect to get on a consistent basis?

I mention this because sometimes on foot.ie there is talk of a glorious future where we all get crowds of 5 / 7 / 8 - 10 thousand for games, but I always think that is an impossibly high percentage of the number of people in the catchment areas of some clubs.

[noby]

In a town/city of say, 50,000 people, with another 50,000 outside the city in the surrounding areas, how many fans can a club reasonably expect to get on a consistent basis?



5% would be a great, but very optimistic, target to have.
2% should be more achievable.

Waterford city has a population of around 50K, the county is the same. If we were to get 2% of the city and 1% of the county that would be 1.5k per game. We were closer to that level a few years ago.

[osarusan]

5% would be a great, but very optimistic, target to have.
2% should be more achievable.


They seem realistic enough. Are those targets just your ideas? Or did you get them somewhere?

[noby]

Straight from the top of my head. Impressed?

[osarusan]

Impressed?
Very much so.

Would I be right in saying that in your opinion at least, crowds of 2,000 consistently would be as good as Waterford could really hope for?

[Sumac]

Also rememebr that in the UK most clubs have a strong local following - even in the lower divisions that is a few thousand a week. That is because that is the no.1 spectator sport in th UK.
In Ireland the no.1 spectator sport is the GAA - That is why you will get those few thousand a week going to league games with the sunshine supportes out in force for the Championship games.
The problem we have with the league of Ireland is that we do not have these few thousand to go weekly. You have a limited amount of committed sports fans in any country and they generally will follow only 1 sport strongly (ie. go week in week out).
Therefore the standard is pretty irrelevant - You will generally get the same supporters anyway

[noby]

Very much so.

Would I be right in saying that in your opinion at least, crowds of 2,000 consistently would be as good as Waterford could really hope for?

If it was consistent I would be delighted.
Maybe not as good as we could hope for (never say never), but something to aim for. It may seem a world away from recent crowds, but in the last ten years we were regularly topping 1000, even in the first division.

Of course you get to 2k, then you start thinking about 2.5k etc. etc.

[peadar1987]

Just a rough stab at catchment areas, from the census website-

Cork- ~200 000
Shams- ~200 000
UCD- ~175 000
Bohs- ~165 000
Pat's- ~165 000
Fingal- ~150 000
Galway- ~145 000
Derry- ~135 000
Shels- ~125 000
Bray- ~120 000
Limerick- ~115 000
Waterford- ~100 000
Kildare- ~100 000
Tralee- ~90 000
Drogheda- ~85 000
Castlebar- ~80 000
Sligo- ~70 000
Dundalk- ~60 000

I just looked at the towns themselves, then at any towns within about a 15km drive, not closer to any other clubs. Shels got a little screwed over because they're sandwiched between Bohs and the sea!

In the UK, there is a culture that you go and watch your local team on a Saturday afternoon. It comes from back in the industrial era when there was literally nothing to do but watch the football when you got out of the pit/factory. We don't have that culture, for whatever reason, probably because we didn't have the industrial drudgery or urban lifestyle that would generally spawn loyal following of a local team. The GAA doesn't help though!

[pete]

Attendance levels are a pointless waste of of time when trying to compare standard of leagues.