Trappatoni Selection Issues [article]

[geysir]

Although I love a good conspiracy, I just don't get the sense of how Don can manage to influence the thinking of Trap re the young players.
Don't you think that Trap has the nous to cop onto any cóck and bull story about someone and not hold it against a player who he sees can play well with his own eyes?

The Don conspiracy would mean than Don has the evil eye over Brady, Tardelli, as well as Trap.
There is enough "real" evidence to cast Don in the FAI hall of horrors for an eternity without actually fabricating stuff out of thin air to imply that we have a dark genius in our midst and make him the scapegoat of much of our misfortunes.

Any updates on the Andy Reid conspiracy?

[Stuttgart88]

I don't think it's a conspiracy, more that Trap has placed a lot of trust in Don and that Don's judgment isn't necessarily best relied upon. By "notions and agendas" I'm really just saying that I think he prefers to pick certain players over others not based so much on ability but maybe on character or on past incidents, also on a wrong premise of building players for the senior team, and not to mention outright poor judgment. I think his outbursts re-Ireland, McCann and others were probably well intentioned and founded on decency, but they also betrayed a lack of political or man-management savvy.

[Manc Irish Wolf]

However, though my preference is always to have the best youth challenging established players for their spot, I find it hard to complain about Foley & Ward's treatment. Foley is far closer to the Irish first XI but I'd be in no hurry to play either given that I think Kelly is a capable deputy for Finnan and Delaney is a capable deputy for Kilbane. In fact I'm pretty sure Delaney can be considered a respectable CB option given he played several seasons there for Hull. In any event Foley is in the squad so at least he's being recognised. Delaney was actually one of the successes of Trap's first 2 games and had made a good case to start in Germany vs. Georgia.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Kelly isn't a capable substitute, just that because of Foley's lack of involvement in previous friendlies we are now forced with a situation where we are having to rely upon a right back who, as someone mentions on another thread, has only played two games this season and couldn't even get into the Birmingham Squad. At the expense of a player who is without shadow of a doubt the best full back in the league and the 2nd best right back we have got (behind Finnan). Like we all do, we want to see the best players available in the team and this isn't possible due to a lack of foresight. The current squad selection is hardly a meritocracy.

[the doc]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Kelly isn't a capable substitute, just that because of Foley's lack of involvement in previous friendlies we are now forced with a situation where we are having to rely upon a right back who, as someone mentions on another thread, has only played two games this season and couldn't even get into the Birmingham Squad. At the expense of a player who is without shadow of a doubt the best full back in the league and the 2nd best right back we have got (behind Finnan). Like we all do, we want to see the best players available in the team and this isn't possible due to a lack of foresight. The current squad selection is hardly a meritocracy.

I'm with Mancs on this one, I've seen Foley a few times and he should be ahead of Kelly who has been poor when he's played this season.

You have to pick players in form, players like Foley should of been given lots of opportunities in friendlies/training camps etc with a view to play him, should someone drop out or not be playing regularly for their club.

Successful teams are built on competition for places, what we have here with Trapp are too many players in the comfort zone knowing that their place in the squad/team are secure regardless of their club form or lack regular 1st team football.

This just leads to mediocrity, and we deserve better than that!

[SkStu]

I'm with Mancs on this one, I've seen Foley a few times and he should be ahead of Kelly who has been poor when he's played this season.

You have to pick players in form, players like Foley should of been given lots of opportunities in friendlies/training camps etc with a view to play him, should someone drop out or not be playing regularly for their club.

Successful teams are built on competition for places, what we have here with Trapp are too many players in the comfort zone knowing that their place in the squad/team are secure regardless of their club form or lack regular 1st team football.

This just leads to mediocrity, and we deserve better than that!

100% agree with this and with Manc. Furthermore, in my opinion, Trap has taken the lazy approach to this job (in particular to the scouting and player assessment) and we will suffer the consequences in the next 2-4 years.

[geysir]

I don't think there is anything outstanding with our right full options after Finnan, definitely not enough to hang your hat on and claim Trap to be inept over.
It is not a lazy approach for a national team manager to go with competent experience in a defensive position.

[SkStu]

I don't think there is anything outstanding with our right full options after Finnan, definitely not enough to hang your hat on and claim Trap to be inept over.
It is not a lazy approach for a national team manager to go with competent experience in a defensive position.

agreed in the context of a starting berth in a qualifier. However, you cannot ignore the outstanding full back performer in the top team of the championship in preference to a dodgy centre-back and a player who has not played much all season. But that is my opnion.

My posts elsewhere outline where else Trap has been lazy and too reliant on second hand information regarding other players, which i wont go into now.

I have posted on Trap before and the long term impact of his approach. Mark my words.

[Scram]

so:

........................Given..................... .......

McShane/Kelly.... Dunne.... O'Shea.... Kilbane

McGeady.....Andrews...Whelan......Duff

.........Keane.........Doyle..................


A limited side but could produce, they wil have to work their @rses off, especially just outside the box, can't see any long balls working*

I nearly rather Kelly to McShane at Right back. McShane is a loose cannon.

O'Shea at center is a worry too.


* Probably guarantees a long ball from Given to Duff crossed in high to Doyle for a headed winner!

[Razors left peg]

so:

........................Given..................... .......

McShane/Kelly.... Dunne.... O'Shea.... Kilbane

McGeady.....Andrews...Whelan......Duff

.........Keane.........Doyle..................


A limited side but could produce, they wil have to work their @rses off, especially just outside the box, can't see any long balls working*

I nearly rather Kelly to McShane at Right back. McShane is a loose cannon.

O'Shea at center is a worry too.


* Probably guarantees a long ball from Given to Duff crossed in high to Doyle for a headed winner!

have u even seen Ireland play under Trappatoni??
O Shea has been one of most consistant performers and has been excellent for United recently

[FarBeag]

This is the best team he could have put out apart from McShane. He is bad enough when fit but if he could not play on Saturday there is no way he is 100%..It’s hard for me to understand why he plays someone who is clearly not a right back or even a football player for that matter instead of a natural right back in Foley who will be a premiership player next year.

[Scram]

have u even seen Ireland play under Trappatoni??
O Shea has been one of most consistant performers and has been excellent for United recently

So when was he playing at center for Man U?????? Read the posts.

And, go back and look at the Montenegro goal, and go back and look at the Swiss goal way back.

Where has anyone said he is not playing well for Man U? Kevin Doyle is playing well for Reading, let's play him on the left wing!!!

[Razors left peg]

So when was he playing at center for Man U?????? Read the posts.

And, go back and look at the Montenegro goal, and go back and look at the Swiss goal way back.

Where has anyone said he is not playing well for Man U? Kevin Doyle is playing well for Reading, let's play him on the left wing!!!

He has been playing well enough for Ireland to be nominated for player of the year recently

[irishfan86]

While I do have problems with some of the squad selections (i.e. support players), I don't have many problems with the actual team selection.

I honestly think that he's put out our best team, with the possible exception of McShane.

Even then, it can be argued that it's better to go with McShane's experience and familiarity with the team and its tactics in a qualifier over throwing a talented youngster like Foley into the mix after he's hardly had time to train with everybody.

Overall, I find that I usually disagree with a manager about some of their decisions, and for me to only be slightly upset about one selection (McShane) is pretty good, especially when you consider the situation in our last campaign!

[eirebhoy]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Kelly isn't a capable substitute, just that because of Foley's lack of involvement in previous friendlies we are now forced with a situation where we are having to rely upon a right back who, as someone mentions on another thread, has only played two games this season and couldn't even get into the Birmingham Squad.
In fairness it's a bit of an exaggeration to say he couldn't get into their squad. Fair enough, Kelly dropped to 2nd choice right back for Birmingham since the summer but has been injured most of the season. He played every minute of their premiership games last season though and was 2nd to Larsson for their POTY.

[NeilMcD]

So when was he playing at center for Man U?????? Read the posts.

And, go back and look at the Montenegro goal, and go back and look at the Swiss goal way back.

Where has anyone said he is not playing well for Man U? Kevin Doyle is playing well for Reading, let's play him on the left wing!!!

I am still looking for the Montenegro goal by the way I was at the game and could have sworn it was a nil all draw. In addition I dont think we have played Switzerland under Trap. People have been saying that O Shea has been very good at centre back for Ireland under Trap and his best performances for Ireland have been at centre back. Nothing you have said proves or even indicates otherwise.

[Colbert Report]

Granted, he really only plays as a left back or right back for Manchester United but I think his best performances in a green shirt have been at centre back. I doubt I'm alone in having that opinion.

[tetsujin1979]

go back and look at the Swiss goal way back.
Are you talking about the goal away to Switzerland in October 2003? I've done some reading up on that Swiss game, and the build up to it.
O'Shea wasn't part of the preferred centre-half pairing at the time. It was Breen and Cunningham for the vast majority of the campaign. O'Shea had been the starting left full in the qualifiers under Kerr until that game and wsaplayed there because Kenny was suspended after a second yellow in the previous game VS Russia.
In that game, there was no clear leader in defence. One of Cunningham's greatest assets to the side was his organisational ability. Beside him, successive partners in Breen and O'Brien produced excellent performances. He told them where to go, where to stand, who to mark, who to track, etc. Without him, the frailties of both players were exposed. Breen was a fantastic servant to the jersey, but he was no leader, and O'Brien's performances dipped after Cunningham's retirement when he was expected to fill the organiser role. IMO he only really returned to previous heights when Dunne returned to the starting XI as his partner.
According to all reports, O'Shea was clearly at fault for the opening Swiss goal. He never really recovered after a slack pass to midfield let Frei in for a clear run at Given. According to these stats from the telegraph - http://footballstats.telegraph.co.uk/PlayerStatInd.aspx?PlayerID=3389&league=50&type=career#stats - O'Shea's completed an average of four out of five passes in the past 3 seasons. For an even more recent comparison, according to the chalkboard on the guardian's site - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/ - he completed 65 of 70 passes in the last game against West Ham. Obviously this is an aspect of his game he's worked on and improved in the past 5 years.
As has been noted by other posters, the improvement in central midfield during Trapattoni's reign has been probably the most noticeable change in how the team is laid out. The two central midfielders tend to sit a little deeper than under previous reigns, but this allows the defence to make shorter, simpler passes, instead of having to aim for the half way line.
As a partnership under Trapattoni, Dunne and O'Shea have only conceded 4 goals in 6 games, and only 1 in 3 competitive games. In the last 2 home competitive games, a grand total of zero goals have been conceded.
Trapattoni has started them in the last 6 games in a row, barring injury or suspension there's no way he's going to change the partnership unnecessarily.
Going back to that Swiss game, with Cunningham suspended, O'Shea was moved in from left full (as he had been in the previous qualifiers) and Harte was restored to the full back berth. In effect, Kerr made two changes to the side when only one was needed. He made the same mistake against Israel two years later, and I've posted my thoughts on this before. I haven't seen enough yet from Trapattoni to suggest he's going to make the same mistake.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Are you talking about the goal away to Switzerland in October 2003? I've done some reading up on that Swiss game, and the build up to it.
O'Shea wasn't part of the preferred centre-half pairing at the time. It was Breen and Cunningham for the vast majority of the campaign. O'Shea had been the starting left full in the qualifiers under Kerr until that game and wsaplayed there because Kenny was suspended after a second yellow in the previous game VS Russia.
In that game, there was no clear leader in defence. One of Cunningham's greatest assets to the side was his organisational ability. Beside him, successive partners in Breen and O'Brien produced excellent performances. He told them where to go, where to stand, who to mark, who to track, etc. Without him, the frailties of both players were exposed. Breen was a fantastic servant to the jersey, but he was no leader, and O'Brien's performances dipped after Cunningham's retirement when he was expected to fill the organiser role. IMO he only really returned to previous heights when Dunne returned to the starting XI as his partner.
According to all reports, O'Shea was clearly at fault for the opening Swiss goal. He never really recovered after a slack pass to midfield let Frei in for a clear run at Given. According to these stats from the telegraph - http://footballstats.telegraph.co.uk/PlayerStatInd.aspx?PlayerID=3389&league=50&type=career#stats - O'Shea's completed an average of four out of five passes in the past 3 seasons. For an even more recent comparison, according to the chalkboard on the guardian's site - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/ - he completed 65 of 70 passes in the last game against West Ham. Obviously this is an aspect of his game he's worked on and improved in the past 5 years.
As has been noted by other posters, the improvement in central midfield during Trapattoni's reign has been probably the most noticeable change in how the team is laid out. The two central midfielders tend to sit a little deeper than under previous reigns, but this allows the defence to make shorter, simpler passes, instead of having to aim for the half way line.
As a partnership under Trapattoni, Dunne and O'Shea have only conceded 4 goals in 6 games, and only 1 in 3 competitive games. In the last 2 home competitive games, a grand total of zero goals have been conceded.
Trapattoni has started them in the last 6 games in a row, barring injury or suspension there's no way he's going to change the partnership unnecessarily.
Going back to that Swiss game, with Cunningham suspended, O'Shea was moved in from left full (as he had been in the previous qualifiers) and Harte was restored to the full back berth. In effect, Kerr made two changes to the side when only one was needed. He made the same mistake against Israel two years later, and I've posted my thoughts on this before. I haven't seen enough yet from Trapattoni to suggest he's going to make the same mistake.


All fair points although it was a bread and butter ball that O'Shea screwed up for that Swiss gola and came more from a lack of concentration in the first few minutes of a game rather then not having a leader beside him. Which is what O'Shea's problem has always been. I've been one of his biggest critics over the years for that reason but there is no question that he has been much improved under Trap and credit to him for that. Playing him at centyre half tonight is the correct decision and a no brainer for me, I just hope Dunne improves on his recent club form.

That Israel reference dragged up awful memories too! It was actually 3 changes Kerr made, Duff moved up front, Kilbane from centre mid to left wing and Kavanagh into centre mid instead of simply bringing Elliot on for Keane. That was the final straw for me for Kerr, so neagtaive when we had them on the rack and such a costly mistake.

[tetsujin1979]

That Israel reference dragged up awful memories too! It was actually 3 changes Kerr made, Duff moved up front, Kilbane from centre mid to left wing and Kavanagh into centre mid instead of simply bringing Elliot on for Keane. That was the final straw for me for Kerr, so neagtaive when we had them on the rack and such a costly mistake.
Yeah, it was effectively three voluntary changes instead of one forced change. My point was that Kerr had not learned from the mistake he made in Switzerland, the back four had a new full back and a new central defensive partnership. Against Israel we effectively had a new midfield (who presumably had little or no time playing together) and suffered for it. That was the point Kerr started to lose my support, it was gone after the Cyprus game.

Anyway, this is all getting away from the topic at hand. Trapattoni is not going to make 2 changes when all he needs is 1. Dunne and O'Shea will start at centre half. I'd be happier to see Kelly (a natural right back) in defence. McShane always gives the appearance of a centre half shoe-horned into a full back, like Dunne early in his career

[Stuttgart88]

I love it - blame a guy for conceding a goal in a 0-0 draw and a goal we conceded 5 and a half years ago!

Just shows what JOS is up against to get any kind of credit from some on this site. Just face it: whatever his flaws he's actually our best option to partner Dunne at CB and would be a very good full back option on either side if Dunne had a credible partner at CB.

Put it this way: if I heard JOS was injured I'd be disappointed.

[paul_oshea]

I love it - blame a guy for conceding a goal in a 0-0 draw and a goal we conceded 5 and a half years ago!

Just shows what JOS is up against to get any kind of credit from some on this site. Just face it: whatever his flaws he's actually our best option to partner Dunne at CB and would be a very good full back option on either side if Dunne had a credible partner at CB.

Put it this way: if I heard JOS was injured I'd be disappointed.

disappointed or worried?!

[Stuttgart88]

you could say worried, worried that an off-form McShane or Bruce might take his place.

By the way, I should add that I thought Bruce has looked solid but unspectacular any time I've seen him, it's just I'd be far more comfortable with JOS. I think he was caught cold just after he came on vs. Poland.

McShane has many attributes of Kevin Moran, but without the consistency or positioning.

[lionelhutz]

Granted, he really only plays as a left back or right back for Manchester United but I think his best performances in a green shirt have been at centre back. I doubt I'm alone in having that opinion.

Definitely. He's been rock solid longside Dunne in the competitive games under Trap. Before that, whether played at left back, right back or midfield he's been fairly average to poor.

[Qwerty]

While I do have problems with some of the squad selections (i.e. support players), I don't have many problems with the actual team selection.

I honestly think that he's put out our best team, with the possible exception of McShane.

Even then, it can be argued that it's better to go with McShane's experience and familiarity with the team and its tactics in a qualifier over throwing a talented youngster like Foley into the mix after he's hardly had time to train with everybody.

Overall, I find that I usually disagree with a manager about some of their decisions, and for me to only be slightly upset about one selection (McShane) is pretty good, especially when you consider the situation in our last campaign!

Trapp has been very consistent in his seletions, his first team seems to be:

Given

Finnan Dunne O'Shea Kilbane

McGeady Whelan Andrews/Gibson Duff

Keane Doyle

Impact sub: Hunt.

I think Reid should be in the squad as another impact sub. Trapp should bring him back for sure.

If Ireland was available I think he too would be an impact sub.

If Dunne or O'Shea are unavailabe he would play McShane in the center.

He's pretty much decided what his team and subs are. He has a 2 yr contract and I don't really see him bringing anybody else unless he feels the players he has right now are not doing the job and so far it's 3 wins and a draw results-wise but dodgey enough performances overall.

[backstothewall]

I'm happy enough for him to do everything to do what he can in the next two years and not take chances on young players. We had enough of bread today and jam tomorrow under Stan, and it didn't work.

For all the criticism of him being defensive, if anything i would prefer him to be more defensive. Hunt would offer more defensively than Duff in my opinion, and thats the change i would make. But as long as we keep wining who are we to critisise a man with his record.

[tricky_colour]

I'm happy enough for him to do everything to do what he can in the next two years and not take chances on young players. We had enough of bread today and jam tomorrow under Stan, and it didn't work.

For all the criticism of him being defensive, if anything i would prefer him to be more defensive. Hunt would offer more defensively than Duff in my opinion, and thats the change i would make. But as long as we keep wining who are we to critisise a man with his record.


Exactly we have the points on the table and are currently in a great position level with Italy, we would be hard pushed to miss out on second place (touch wood) and are in a position to have a crack at top spot.
None of the teams below us have got a win yet whilst we have three in the bag. Obviously a long way to go and tougher games to come, but so far so good.

[The Fly]

Just as an aside; who do people think, barring injuries of course, will make up the squad we bring to the World Cup - should we make it.

This is just under a year and half away.

As well as Trap's regulars, I think Marc Wilson might make it. O'Dea has an outside chance. Similarly Garvan, Foley and McCarthy. Anyone else?

(Hopefully Ireland comes back before this season is over and Steven Reid returns to fitness)

[tetsujin1979]

For all the criticism of him being defensive, if anything i would prefer him to be more defensive. Hunt would offer more defensively than Duff in my opinion, and thats the change i would make. But as long as we keep wining who are we to critisise a man with his record.
I think with Duff, we've a better chance of winning, and with Hunt, we've a better chance of not losing, if that makes sense.
Hunt would have been a first choice in a Houllier or England-under-Ericsson team, they knew exactly what they would get from him, and he would never be criticised by the press for lack of effort.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd say Trap will stay with the same ideas at home but I think we might see the first sign of change in the Italy and Bulgaria away games.

He has asked us to trust him and so far I do, just. I'd like to think he has a few more plans up his sleeve but maybe I'm being generous.

The Indo & The Irish Times have been a bit selective in their qoutes whereas The Examiner seems to pick up on the real themes of the press conferences and once you read a lot of what Trap says it's hard to argue with him.

[elroy]

A couple of the papers today have Trap quoted as saying he would love to stay in the Ireland job beyond the WC if hes wanted. Im a little surprised at this because I wouldve assumed considering his age his tenure was for one campaign only.

Bar a complete collapse in the second half of the campaign I for one would be happy for him to continue, wages may be an issue of course no guarantee the FAI would get a similar helping hand from Denis O'Brien or others but I would be all for the current mgmt team to continue into the next campaign. As one of the papers noted international football is all about results, results, results and on that count alone Trap has been nothing but a success.

On a separate note the papers continue to devote column inches to the SI issue, i for one am bored of it at this stage. I think the point of no return for this campaign probably passed last wed. Trap is clearly sick of answering Q's about him at this stage and really no more should be said of it unless SI changes his current stance!

[Stuttgart88]

elroy, not only do they continue to devote column inches to this total-and-utter red herrring but the Indo scurrilously & shamefully inserts headlines like "Trap bans Ireland From World Cup Bandwagon" (or whatever it was exactly). I know the effect: I know many people who glance at the stories & who'll come away with the wrong impression. The headline writers know this too.

On the Stephen Ireland theme:

(a) to the trained & interested eye there are so many other stories surrounding the national theme to report on
(b) what bandwagon? The hypothetical bandwagon that would happen if we were to qualify? That's all the story said - if we qualify it'll be too late for him. Funnily enough, the Indo is so critical that qualification seems a remote prospect anyway so can't they get their editorial stance straight? And,
(c) despite his pants, he's not superman. He has been involved in many of City's best moments this season and oozes class at times but he hasn't been able to drag them up a level when they're struggling. It's total nonsense to suggest all would be rosy with Stephen Ireland on board.

Anyway, you say you'd be happy for him to continue. For me the jury is out to a certain extent. Not because of results or even performances, but because I'm not convinced that he has explored enough alternatives to his Plan A. That said, maybe he HAS assessed the young fringe lads we harp on about. It's one thing to say he hasn't been imaginative enough but I'd prefer his pragmatic conservatism to the almost indiscriminate way in which Stan fielded young players. Judging by remarks on foot.ie today his judgment on young Gibson seems on the money. We complain about St. Ledger not being selected over Bruce or McShane but Foley and Damien Delaney (LB & CB) are selected, as is Kieren Westwood.

He didn't drive Stephen Ireland out & he didn't injure Steven Reid. My only real complaint is that I'm sure Andy Reid has something to offer even if only as part of a Plan B or C. On the plus side he has instilled on-pitch discipline and organisation and he has taken the pressure off the players by assuming sole responsibility. He said to them (and us) right at the start to trust him. It's too early IMHO to blindly say keep him on as the real test is how we fare from here, but so far so satisfactory.