A Pessimistic outlook for the National Team - long post beware

[Kevin77]

Firstly let me say that I am not talking long term here. By long term I mean three to four years plus. I am talking about the present and the immediate future for our national team. Things are not looking good. Obviously we have started the qualification campaign for the 2010 World Cup as reasonably as could be expected and have a very experienced manager which is a step up from the shambolic Staunton reign but the signs are not good.

Let’s look at the form of the players we currently have at our disposal. Anyone that has been watching players that qualify to play for Ireland this season will know that there is one player head and shoulders above all the others and perhaps in line to be Man City’s best performer of the season. He may even be in line to take out the young player of the year award. But sadly for us, for whatever reason, Stephen Ireland has decided that playing for his country is not in his own best interests. This is a crushing blow for a team that badly needs all the quality it can get, particularly in the middle of the park. Regardless of the argument that Trappatoni does not see Andy Reid as part of the equation as a luxury midfield player and therefore may not want to accommodate Ireland, comparing Reid with Ireland is fairly facile. Ireland is consistently performing at a level that Reid has rarely if ever reached. It could be argued that if Ireland were available, Trappatoni would be compelled to find a place for him in his Irish team. Anyway, Ireland is not available and what should be one of the shining lights in what is proving to be a season of underperformance for Irish players is a moot point.

The Andy Reid argument has raged on and it is probably a shame that this has proved to be such a source of irritation as Trappatoni continues to do a job that appears increasingly difficult. Ignoring the paucity of alternatives in the midfield, the reality is that Andy Reid rarely starts for a lower mid table side in the Premier League and when he does it has often been in a wide role. Further to this, this has now occurred under two managers at Sunderland. His current situation mirrors his patchy return at Tottenham (injuries considered) and it was really only at Charlton in the second tier of English football that he consistently performed. He is essentially a very good first division player and possibly an average performer at the lower end of the Premier League. He has not fulfilled his undoubted potential (or perhaps our Irish rose tinted glasses wish that his talent is greater than the reality?). So until he nails down a first team berth at Sunderland and starts becoming the heartbeat of that side, perhaps the criticism of his exclusion is really unwarranted.

Continuing with our options in the middle of the park, yet another long term injury to Stephen Reid has exacerbated the need for quality in the middle of the park. His dynamic muscular presence is sorely missed and it is very difficult to factor him into the equation for the foreseeable future, if at all.

Trappatoni’s recent preference for Darron Gibson of Man Utd and Glen Whelan of Stoke has caused a fair amount of consternation. The reality is that Darron Gibson is a young player developing at Manchester United. He has been on the bench a number of times this season for Utd (the Premier League now permitting seven players on the bench has to have helped him there) and has started regularly in the League Cup. The jury is still out on him. At best we can say that he is there or thereabouts at Old Trafford and still has time. If we are to be critical we can say that in a season where Utd have not settled on a first choice midfield combination, if he was good enough he would have seen a lot more playing time in the Premier League.

Glenn Whelan started the season as a regular unused sub on the bench at Stoke. Thankfully he is now starting regularly and at least regular exposure to Premier League action will see him battle hardened for coming action. The reality however is that Stoke are likely to be back in the Championship next season and Whelan hasn’t done enough to warrant a move to stay in the top flight. He is a steady player, but once again not going to set the world on fire.

In terms of other options in the middle of the park, the continuing absence of Lee Carsley from Irish squads has baffled a lot of people. Once again the stark reality paints a grim picture of Irish footballs current plight. Carsley is 35 years old and performing well in a side chasing promotion to the top flight. He is not one for the future and even at present he would be little more than a stop gap.

After those already mentioned we are talking about journeymen players like Keith Andrews at Blackburn and Stephen McPhail at Cardiff. If we are to look at players with potential, we are talking about players like James McCarthy at Hamilton who is still a teenager or Owen Garvan at Ipswich. There is no doubt that these players have potential, but as a word of caution so did players like Jason Gavin, Stephen Elliott and Richie Sadlier. Nothing is guaranteed.

One player that we have come to rely on for consistent excellence over the years has been Shay Given. Is his move from one club in turmoil to another a good move? It’s hard to know if Given has jumped from the frying pan into the fire. It may take him time to settle and he will be scrutinised thoroughly at Man City.

On the whole it has been a pretty poor year for our strikers. Robbie Keane’s move to Liverpool (and bizarre subsequent return to Tottenham) was an unmitigated disaster. In returning to Spurs, he has ensured that there is no fairytale redemption and as at his time with Inter Milan, his reputation is tarnished. Keane has always been a player that needs to play every game. To have the confidence of his manager. In almost any spell where he has been rotated or forced to sit on the bench his form and confidence have dipped. The only silver lining from an Irish perspective is that he is now likely to get an extended run in a team and he will have the added motivation of proving Rafa Benitez wrong. Jermaine Defoe’s injury may make his passage to first team football slightly easier.

It might seem bizarre to say that Kevin Doyle is having a poor season however whilst he has scored a fair total of goals to date , his recent record of 2 goals in 11 games is disappointing for a striker with ambitions of gracing the Premiership again. Even more worrying is that it repeats the trend of last season when his barren run in the second half of the season coincided with Reading’s slump to relegation. Ireland cannot afford to have their only genuinely decent strikers going through such poor patches of form. Also worth considering is that his goals tally this season comes in the second tier of English football. Other players to score freely in this division are players like Marlon King, Alan Lee and Clinton Morrison. Hardly names to strike fear into the Italians.

Almost alarming from striking point of view is the significant decline in quality behind our first choice front two. Twelve to eighteen months ago there seemed to be a queue of young and exciting striking talent queueing up behind Keane and Doyle to make the breakthrough. The marginalisation of Darryl Murphy at Sunderland whilst not shocking has been disappointing. The failure of Shane Long to become anything other than a bit part player at Reading has frustrated. Stephen Elliott disappearing off the radar (of football entirely) until scoring a brace for Preston recently. Andy Keogh’s peripheral participation at Wovles (and often out of position), similarly for Stephen Ward. Anthony Stokes failure to live up to the hype. All of these names echo situations similar to those previously encountered by players like Sean Thornton in years gone by. Names we all hoped we would be chanting in years to come, more out of hope than any genuine belief that they were truly blessed.

The decline of Damien Duff has been sad to witness. From the free spirit that enthralled us all at under age world cups to the effective front man at Japan and Korea and one of the attacking sparks of Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea he now looks a spent force. Newcastle fans now can’t believe he is still in what is a very poor side. He has lost his pace, his spark and confidence. Obviously injury has played a massive part but the sad reality is that he is only a shadow of the player he once was.

Contd next post:

[Kevin77]

A couple of years ago, Aiden McGeady was being spoken of as some kind of Irish Ronaldinhio. Whilst he is still performing well in Scotland, he has not progressed to the extent we would all have hoped. Instead of being the Irish Messi or Ronaldo he is probably more akin to the Irish Aaron Lennon.

Possibly one of the most disappointing performers of the season has been Richard Dunne of Man City. A rock at the back and regular player of the year for Man City for season after season his performances have dipped significantly as part of City’s overall decline this year. At 28 years of age he should now be approaching his finest years as a centre half and last year there was realistic expectations that he could form part of a top four teams centre back pairing. Now there have been rumours of him going to Sunderland or clubs offering 5 million GBP for him. The fact that a defensively suspect City would even countenance selling him is worrying. For Ireland it’s even worse given the dearth of class centre half alternatives. Trappatoni has favoured a partnership with O’Shea that has been serviceable against lesser nations however worryingly despite O’Shea’s versatility he has rarely, especially of late played there for Man Utd. So our first choice central defensive partnership is one out of form player and another stop gap player who has not played centre half regularly in a long time.

All in all, I have been an optimist over the past six or seven years since the real decline started. Like many of us I have watched as young players like Joey O’Brien or Stephen Kelly break into their respective clubs first teams, but have also seen them fail to make it at the top grade.

The reality is that we have generally had twenty odd players as first choice at the top flight in England and prior to that plenty of star players in the top teams. Now we have few automatic choices and even fewer players with form. Our best players are either unavailable, coming to the end of their career, out of favour at club level or underperforming. The next set of players are Championship players at best. And the young players are just like their counterparts in the past, they are just hope.

So, can we make the World Cup in 2010 with what we have? Undoubtedly we have some genuine class, but the reality is that we need players like Shay Given, Richard Dunne, John O’Shea, Stephen Reid, Stephen Ireland, Damien Duff, Aiden McGeady, Robbie Keane and Kevin Doyle fit, available, motivated and playing at their very best. We also need some of the players that fall into the ‘potential’ category (Noel Hunt, Owen Garvan, Jamie McCarthy etc) to really deliver. We really need a few players to make the transformation Stephen Ireland has made over the past eighteen months. We also need to reverse the negative trends that our best players seem to have been trapped in over the same period.

[theworm2345]

It might seem bizarre to say that Kevin Doyle is having a poor season however whilst he has scored a fair total of goals to date , his recent record of 2 goals in 11 games is disappointing for a striker with ambitions of gracing the Premiership again. Even more worrying is that it repeats the trend of last season when his barren run in the second half of the season coincided with Reading’s slump to relegation. Ireland cannot afford to have their only genuinely decent strikers going through such poor patches of form. Also worth considering is that his goals tally this season comes in the second tier of English football. Other players to score freely in this division are players like Marlon King, Alan Lee and Clinton Morrison. Hardly names to strike fear into the Italians.

A.) Marlon King is playing in the Premier League with Boro and has been the whole year (though with Wigan and Hull for the first part)
B.) He's Jamaican
C.) No way I'm reading all that :)

[bwagner]

I hate to agree on this , we have 1 player in the top 6 ...says a lot

[donalmcdonagh]

Well done Kevin77, what was the point in that, are you trying to depress everyone. That like something your man Curtis from the Sunday world would write. You would have been better off not bothering...

[Den Perry]

Well done Kevin77, what was the point in that, are you trying to depress everyone. That like something your man Curtis from the Sunday world would write. You would have been better off not bothering...


I hate Roy Curtis...his style of journalism has tio be the worst ever. I rem a thread on this lad somewhere. how do I find old threads?

[hunt4the]

getting away from dismal club situations to the irish set up should be a breath of fresh air to them all so, were sorted.

I dont agree with bs about duff he was our best player against cyprus had a brilliant game and should of got the goal his game deserved

[Supreme feet]

Looking back to our last major championship, our defence was as poor then as it is now; were Breen and Staunton really better as a partnership than O'Shea and Dunne? Was Harte better than Kilbane at left-back? In 2002, we played with a midfield of Gary Kelly, Holland, Kinsella and Kilbane. Then, as now, a defensive midfield, with the emphasis on protecting the fragile back four. We had Duff playing as a makeshift striker. Yet we dominated a very good Cameroon team and ably competed against Germany and Spain. I would say now, with Doyle and McGeady added to Duff and Keane, we have more attacking potential than we did back then. Whelan and Andrews are at about the same level as Holland and Kinsella, who we so badly missed in recent years. I would be worried about our lack of options as back-up in defence, but we have enough players coming through in midfield and attack to be reasonably satisfied.

In the short-term, we need a few players to come back into form, and for Whelan and Andrews to get more experience and further improve themselves. If Steven Reid comes back fully fit, we could have quite a strong team, and squad, by the time the playoffs come around. Don't forget, if Wolves and Reading get promoted, we'll have Doyle, Hunt, Hunt, Long, Ward, Keogh and Foley all playing Premiership football. It'll look a bit better then, won't it?! Football can change very quickly - the Poland game was disappointing, and you're only as good as your last game, I suppose; but two (very achievable) wins in the next two games, and we're sitting pretty again.

[drummerboy]

Jaysus he forgot to mention the recession

[donalmcdonagh]

getting away from dismal club situations to the irish set up should be a breath of fresh air to them all so, were sorted.

I agree with the above, a lot of our players international roles are different from their club role. Our players are a different proposition in the international fold, take S. Hunt for example, I think he is yet to perform to his level with Ireland. Take O'Shea, he is bit part but consistent for Man U, for Irealnd he is often our best performer. So basically club and country form differ for the majority of our players.


[quote=hunt4the;1097754]I dont agree with bs about duff he was our best player against cyprus had a brilliant game and should of got the goal his game deserved


I agree with you...... Duff has been one of Newcastles best performers this term, I think he is improving match by match. People wrote him off on her and frankly that was stupid, tabloid comments. He is still doing what a winger shud do, supply plenty of quality crosses and track back well.

We can also consider the positive side of our other players (as opposed to Kevin 77's pessimistic view)......
Gibson- best run of form in his senior career, getting some recognition and games, and only 20??
Whelan- getting games at the top level regularly and performing well in a very defind role (some people think every mid fielder should be like Lampard or Gerrad)
Keane- to look at the stats Keane had the same number of goals and assists as Kuyt and Torres until the chelsea game, I admit he is underperforming but this is not too bad for a player off form.
Dunne- Yes is in mediocre form in the city team but where is cities defensive strategy...It doesnt help!!!! He will be soild as ever for us....mark my words
Andrews- It wud be benitez like to criticise him..he has done fantastically well to get where he is, and he is performing well in a very defind role..
Doyle- Yes Kevin77, it is bizarre to say Doyle is having a poor season, he is top scorer in the division, the fact that readings form has dipped with his shows how important he is to them....EVERY players from varies during a season, he is still playing good football
McGeady- slowly getting back to form, doing ok. Will probably do the same agasint Georgia.

Its not all doom and gloom.....and its not a matter of taking the positives its a matter of looking at the reality of the situation...

[RogerMilla]

excellent post kevin77 , your outlook is very realistic indeed but i think donalmcdonagh is right to say we have to look at the positives too , were we to put georgia and bulgaria way then i think we will be heading to italy in a much better frame of mind,

[Royal rover]

I take alot of the criticism's on board - some extremely valid points - but i wouldn't go down the route that it's a doom and gloom - i'll stand by my opinion that international football management has more to do with motivation techniques and tactics - all you need to do is look at Greece 2004-i believe if a group of players have a bond , a good work ethic on the field and believe in the tactics/tasks they are asked to perform then anything is possible - all you need to do is look at the recent examples such as the North - and as one pointed out correctly our current team is every bit as good as what we had during 2002 (minnus roy)- with possibly better attacking options - i spoke to a guy recently and said about how many of our lads would make the england set up 12 months ago - he agreed duff, keane,given, dunne and possibly finnan (liverpool) not that it's anything to go by, but really i do believe the current crop potentially is the best since the days of Charlton , as i have said before trapp has done it all - and it's far to early to start been critical of his decisions - and he knows more about football than any of us!

[Metrostars]

Kevin is right. At the moment we have a good back bone of a team with Given, Dunne, O'Shea(yes, him), Stephen Reid(when fit), Keane and Duff. But what about in 4-5 years time when they're all retired? There isn't a lot coming through at the highest level i.e. Prem. Yes, we have some good prospects at Championship level but we don't really know how they will pan out or if they can make it to Premiership level.

Since the start of the Premiership, clubs have been giving less and less chances to younger local players as in the past mainly due to the cut throat league it has become. It is easier and safer for them to buy some non British/Irish older, more experienced, skillful, athletic player than to take a chance on younger local players. It's hurting the English and Irish national teams.

I've be saying for years around here that we think that soccer doesn't exist outside of England. Instead of letting English clubs develop all our players, perhaps we should be looking to Europe and leagues like Holland and France where they place more of an emphasis on developing young players. Or God forbid, that we actually develop something ourselves in our own country.

[Noelys Guitar]

Here is the team that played Iran away 2001 and most of these played in WC2002
Republic of Ireland: Given, Finnan, Breen, Staunton, Harte, McAteer, Kinsella, Holland, Kilbane, Robbie Keane, Connolly.

Given, Finnan, Kilbane, Dunne and O'Shea surely better than WC2002 defense. The present midfield and forward line for me is about the same quality as 2002's

[Uncle_Joe]

At least Marlon King would have brought some Positive Jamaican vibrations.

IRIE!!!!

[elroy]

Jaysus he forgot to mention the recession

Well you know Eamon Dunphy's theory of poor hard working class economies......produce the best footballers apparently ;)

One point worth noting which I was only thinking about and i believe could be a catalyst for future Irish success is that the likelihood is that Ireland will at least make the finals of a major tournament every four years from 2016, this can only be a good thing for Irish football and will know promote and encourage more young kids to play football. I grew up in the golden age of the late eighties/early 90s and there is no doubt in my mind that we need that sort of attention/success again to encourage the next generation to succeed at the highest level for Ireland.

Finally in reference to our current crop of players, we never (bar maybe 1988-90) have had a team/squad full of top flight players. In fact if you compare man for man the team that qualified in 2002 versus the team now there isnt a whole lot of difference talent wise (excluding Roy obviously). In the 1994 world cup, we had tommy coyne of motherwell up front!!
The level of competition in the premiership is alot higher than it was back then, the influx of foreign players has meant that a number of British and Irish players that ten years ago wouldve played full time in the top division now ply their trade a division lower. I guarantee you that if you looked at the number of players that were in say the `94 squad that were playing with clubs in the top division at the time and placed them in todays current environment in the premiership, not all of them would hold their place in the top flight.

[Paddy Garcia]

Whelan and Andrews are at about the same level as Holland and Kinsella,


I really don't think they are - both captained teams in the top english division, over a fair number of years and were very frequent MOTM winners. Whilst clearly not in the class of Keane they were head and shoulders above Whelan and Andrews - a few dozen appearances in the top flight between them (if that) & always looking over their shoulder to see if they will retain their place.

Both Holland & Kinsella were fairly skilful players, who could hold their own in the top flight with ease (once given the opportunity- accept late developers both).




One point worth noting which I was only thinking about and i believe could be a catalyst for future Irish success is that the likelihood is that Ireland will at least make the finals of a major tournament every four years from 2016, this can only be a good thing for Irish football


Agree this would be great - curious though what makes you think this is a likelihood ? Tend to agree with Kevin - the future does not look bright.

[Cymro]

I think elroy's referring to the planned expansion of the European Championships to 24 teams from 2016. Whether or not that means teams like Ireland (and Wales?) will qualify regularly is questionable though.

[as_i_say]

At least Marlon King would have brought some Positive Jamaican vibrations.

IRIE!!!!

He's

a)not Irish
b) sh1t
c) a scumbag. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/hullcity/3706077/Premier-League-footballer-Marlon-King-arrested-over-nightclub-attack-on-woman.html

Next

.

[RiffRaff]

In relation to points made about our players being championship standard, the gap seems to have closed somewhat in the last couple of years between that and the premiership. The 3 promoted teams from last season are making a good fight of it this season and andrews had come up 2 divisions and not looked out of place. Its true we dont have many superstars any more but that might not necessarily be a bad thing. I think the careers of people like Garvan, O'Toole and McCann may well prove to have benefited from not being at premiership clubs and I think all 3 could at this stage fit into a mid table premiership side. I believe we have the makings of a good side if we get a good system and are organised. I'm just not sure Trap will be the man to do it because I think pettyness and stubborness is influencing his team selection.

[Stuttgart88]

I think the fact that a good portion of our team is in the Championship isn't that big a deal. What standard of football are the Bulgarian or Georgian squads playing?

International football outside the top 10 or 12 sides in the world is pretty much that standard anyway.

I think a lot of what Kevin says is true but despite the length of the post it doesn't say much beyond what we've known for ages: if we had a good midfield we'd actually be a good team. With the midfield we have it'll always be hit & miss.

[irishfan86]

I don't think things are as glum as you profess.

Keane is a quality striker that should probably have been 3rd choice at Liverpool behind Gerrard and Torres. Liverpool score most of their goals in the last 30 minutes, and he was rarely allowed to participate in that part of the game. No footballing fan can honestly believe that Ngog and Kuyt are better options than Keane as cover. Yes he had a few bad misses, but I honestly think he was mistreated and misused by Benitez- contrast Keane's treatment to how Berbatov was looked after by Ferguson. Berbatov was given the chance to settle in, and wasn't dropped despite a less than wonderful start to the campaign. Ferguson's excellent man management versus Benitez's borderline handicapped handling of Keane is why the Reds will never win an English title under Rafa's leadership.

Doyle is the leading goalscorer in the Championship- Yeah he's having a real stinker of a season man!

This is Duff's first season in about two years where he has been consistently healthy. He isn't the player he was in the 2002 World Cup, but he is still our best winger and has performed well in this qualifying campaign, and is performing at a good level for a struggling Newcastle side.

McGeady has had a poor season in contrast to his player of the season year last year, but is still capable of moments of magic. He can be frustrating at times, but once he settles in the team I think he can become one of our most crucial players.

Whelan has fought his way into the Stoke starting XI and been part of a number of fantastic team performances over the past few weeks. He is not as good going forward as some of the elite box-to-box midfielders, but he is playing a defensive role with us and in that role he has excelled with his club team in the last while.

Andrews has managed to keep his place, despite a change in manager. He has been part of a Blackburn side that has been undefeated in 8 matches after having a horrible start to the year.

Gibson is probably a player more for the future than now, and I'm not too sure how confident I am in him playing for us in the big games. I think he can do a job against Georgia, but I'd be very worried against the likes of Italy.

Kilbane will be a first choice left back at Premiership level now, which isn't something we've had for a while.

O'Shea is getting first team football at a top Premier League club. Yes, this is because of injury, but we cannot ignore the fact that he has been part of a back four that has not conceded in over 10 matches.

Dunne is having a bad year, and his recent sending off was a moment of idiocy I find hard to comprehend. Despite this, I know he has the quality to bounce back. I feel with De Jong now in the City midfield, Dunne may not be as exposed and may perform better in the second half of the season.

At right back I'm not really sure what's going on.

I don't want McShane there, and Finnan is probably not going to be match fit by the time the Georgia match comes around.

Yet, nobody else has really established themselves as a better option. I realize Foley is playing wonderfully at Wolves, and I would probably pick him ahead of McShane, but I'd be worried about throwing in a player like that into a qualifier without some recent involvement in the team (Poland would have been the ideal blooding ground).

The key thing for me is that we seem to have a genuine group mentality for the first time since the WC2002 campaign. We have a system, a vision, and a goal.

I don't agree with everything Trap has done, but at least it seems to have a logic and direction.

Now let's get behind the lads, and GIVE IT A LASH TRAP, NEVER NEVER SAY NO

[theworm2345]

He's

a)not Irish
b) sh1t
c) a scumbag. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/hullcity/3706077/Premier-League-footballer-Marlon-King-arrested-over-nightclub-attack-on-woman.html

Next

.
I'm a fan of King's but I agree there wouldn't be "positive Jamaican vibes" off him.

There was that incident, a fight with Dean Windass not long before that, and as I recall he was banned by the JFF for two years and didn't represent Jamaica for those two years.

Clint's part Jamaican so he can bring those vibes :D

[Razors left peg]

I don't think things are as glum as you profess.

Keane is a quality striker that should probably have been 3rd choice at Liverpool behind Gerrard and Torres. Liverpool score most of their goals in the last 30 minutes, and he was rarely allowed to participate in that part of the game. No footballing fan can honestly believe that Ngog and Kuyt are better options than Keane as cover. Yes he had a few bad misses, but I honestly think he was mistreated and misused by Benitez- contrast Keane's treatment to how Berbatov was looked after by Ferguson. Berbatov was given the chance to settle in, and wasn't dropped despite a less than wonderful start to the campaign. Ferguson's excellent man management versus Benitez's borderline handicapped handling of Keane is why the Reds will never win an English title under Rafa's leadership.

Doyle is the leading goalscorer in the Championship- Yeah he's having a real stinker of a season man!

This is Duff's first season in about two years where he has been consistently healthy. He isn't the player he was in the 2002 World Cup, but he is still our best winger and has performed well in this qualifying campaign, and is performing at a good level for a struggling Newcastle side.

McGeady has had a poor season in contrast to his player of the season year last year, but is still capable of moments of magic. He can be frustrating at times, but once he settles in the team I think he can become one of our most crucial players.

Whelan has fought his way into the Stoke starting XI and been part of a number of fantastic team performances over the past few weeks. He is not as good going forward as some of the elite box-to-box midfielders, but he is playing a defensive role with us and in that role he has excelled with his club team in the last while.

Andrews has managed to keep his place, despite a change in manager. He has been part of a Blackburn side that has been undefeated in 8 matches after having a horrible start to the year.

Gibson is probably a player more for the future than now, and I'm not too sure how confident I am in him playing for us in the big games. I think he can do a job against Georgia, but I'd be very worried against the likes of Italy.

Kilbane will be a first choice left back at Premiership level now, which isn't something we've had for a while.

O'Shea is getting first team football at a top Premier League club. Yes, this is because of injury, but we cannot ignore the fact that he has been part of a back four that has not conceded in over 10 matches.

Dunne is having a bad year, and his recent sending off was a moment of idiocy I find hard to comprehend. Despite this, I know he has the quality to bounce back. I feel with De Jong now in the City midfield, Dunne may not be as exposed and may perform better in the second half of the season.

At right back I'm not really sure what's going on.

I don't want McShane there, and Finnan is probably not going to be match fit by the time the Georgia match comes around.

Yet, nobody else has really established themselves as a better option. I realize Foley is playing wonderfully at Wolves, and I would probably pick him ahead of McShane, but I'd be worried about throwing in a player like that into a qualifier without some recent involvement in the team (Poland would have been the ideal blooding ground).

The key thing for me is that we seem to have a genuine group mentality for the first time since the WC2002 campaign. We have a system, a vision, and a goal.

I don't agree with everything Trap has done, but at least it seems to have a logic and direction.

Now let's get behind the lads, and GIVE IT A LASH TRAP, NEVER NEVER SAY NO

Excellent post, very well said

[eirebhoy]

At the moment we have a good back bone of a team with Given, Dunne, O'Shea(yes, him), Stephen Reid(when fit), Keane and Duff. But what about in 4-5 years time when they're all retired? There isn't a lot coming through at the highest level i.e. Prem. Yes, we have some good prospects at Championship level but we don't really know how they will pan out or if they can make it to Premiership level.
Still though McCann, Scannell, Garvan, S.Quinn, O'Toole, Foley and McCarthy are all U21 players that have been linked with moves to the premiership in recent months. We're never going to have loads of players coming through at premiership level at once. Keane and Reid themselves came through at a lower level.

[Razors left peg]

Still though McCann, Scannell, Garvan, S.Quinn, O'Toole, Foley and McCarthy are all U21 players that have been linked with moves to the premiership in recent months. We're never going to have loads of players coming through at premiership level at once. Keane and Reid themselves came through at a lower level.

If there are 1 or 2 lads breaking through every year thats enough

[elroy]

I think elroy's referring to the planned expansion of the European Championships to 24 teams from 2016. Whether or not that means teams like Ireland (and Wales?) will qualify regularly is questionable though.

Correct, cant speak for Wales but from an Irish point of view, we wouldve qualified for the vast majority of the recent Euro Championships with the exception of probably Euro 2008.

[SkStu]

I've be saying for years around here that we think that soccer doesn't exist outside of England. Instead of letting English clubs develop all our players, perhaps we should be looking to Europe and leagues like Holland and France where they place more of an emphasis on developing young players. Or God forbid, that we actually develop something ourselves in our own country.

nail on head - until then we can have no real issues with irregular qualification and bad qualification group standings/results.

on a more positive note, i think that Kev's post is very applicable right now but most of his comments are on the form, as opposed to the ability, of our pool of players which means that the outlook could be quite different within a month or two. In the short term and bearing in mind my first sentence, this campaign is actually going quite well, even if Trappatoni is a lazy sod.

[Wolfie]

Georgia are playing a worse standard, but then Georgia are pretty crap.

They may well be - but we were all glad to hear the final whistle when we played them in Germany.

I'd assume nothing against these lads. They could push us very close and may well still resent having had to play us in Germany at all.

If we happen to concede a goal against anyone - we're woefully set up to rescue a game at the moment.

[geysir]

Pessimism for the Dutch would be 'we won't get further than the q/f with this team/coach/squad'.
Pessimism is connected to expectations.

The first question here is, what are our expectations.
Mine are a 2nd place and win a play off. Those expectations are a bit higher than what standard the team are currently managing.
But we are playing better as a team and the team can play better.
There have been plusses since Trap took over.
Players are much better prepared and confident to do whatever he expects according to the game plan
We are in a good position now to move on.

[Stuttgart88]

Exactly Geysir. It's like when everyone used to bemoan not having world class players. What do you need world class players for when it can be unainimously agreed that qualification would be a result?

Some really good posts above - it ain't so bleak.

[Cymro]

Correct, cant speak for Wales but from an Irish point of view, we wouldve qualified for the vast majority of the recent Euro Championships with the exception of probably Euro 2008.

I think you would have done it in Euro 2008, based on the fact you finished third, and there were 7 groups. So the 16 qualifiers of 2008 would have been joined in this hypothetical scenario by the 7 third-placed teams and the best fourth placed team.

However, in future when this gets implemented, they'll probably make more groups of lesser numbers of teams to avoid the scenario of four teams qualifying from one group. It'll probably be something like ten groups of five, with the winners and runners-up to be joined by the hosts and two play-off winners. So I wouldn't be taking qualification for granted. A typical group would likely contain at least one top team along the lines of England/France/Netherlands/Germany/Italy/Portugal/Spain etc. and one decent team such as one of Scandinavian countries, or Switzerland/Greece/Turkey/Ukraine or the like.

In my view this would not represent a significantly easier qualification route than the present system. Of course, this is all speculation. I have no idea what FIFA/UEFA have planned for 2016 onwards, or even whether the expansion is actuially confirmed as going ahead yet.

edit: just for fun, here's what the 2016 groups might plausibly look like based on current FIFA Zonal rankings (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html#confederation=27275&rank=177)

A
Spain
Scotland
Finland
Austria
Moldova
B
Germany
Czech Republic
Belgium
Belarus
Georgia
C
Netherlands
Sweden
Northern Ireland
Iceland
Armenia
D
Italy
Poland
Republic of Ireland
Albania
Montenegro
E
Croatia
Ukraine
Lithuania
Norway
Estonia
F
England
Switzerland
Slovakia
Latvia
Luxembourg
G
Russia
Bulgaria
Hungary
Wales
Kazakhstan
H
Turkey
Greece
Serbia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Azerbaijan
San Marino
I
France
Israel
FYR Macedonia
Slovenia
Malta
Andorra
J
Portugal
Romania
Denmark
Cyprus
Liechtenstein
Faroe Islands

Bearing in mind you have to finish top two to qualify (allowing for a couple of play-off spots, depending on the number of hosts), I don't think it's much different to what we have now. The main difference is that runners-up will qualify automatically rather than face a play-off, but I still assert that finishing second in any of those groups would be a pretty decent challenge.

[elroy]

I think you would have done it in Euro 2008, based on the fact you finished third, and there were 7 groups. So the 16 qualifiers of 2008 would have been joined in this hypothetical scenario by the 7 third-placed teams and the best fourth placed team.

However, in future when this gets implemented, they'll probably make more groups of lesser numbers of teams to avoid the scenario of four teams qualifying from one group. It'll probably be something like ten groups of five, with the winners and runners-up to be joined by the hosts and two play-off winners. So I wouldn't be taking qualification for granted. A typical group would likely contain at least one top team along the lines of England/France/Netherlands/Germany/Italy/Portugal/Spain etc. and one decent team such as one of Scandinavian countries, or Switzerland/Greece/Turkey/Ukraine or the like.

In my view this would not represent a significantly easier qualification route than the present system. Of course, this is all speculation. I have no idea what FIFA/UEFA have planned for 2016 onwards, or even whether the expansion is actuially confirmed as going ahead yet.

edit: just for fun, here's what the 2016 groups might plausibly look like based on current FIFA Zonal rankings (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html#confederation=27275&rank=177)

A
Spain
Scotland
Finland
Austria
Moldova
B
Germany
Czech Republic
Belgium
Belarus
Georgia
C
Netherlands
Sweden
Northern Ireland
Iceland
Armenia
D
Italy
Poland
Republic of Ireland
Albania
Montenegro
E
Croatia
Ukraine
Lithuania
Norway
Estonia
F
England
Switzerland
Slovakia
Latvia
Luxembourg
G
Russia
Bulgaria
Hungary
Wales
Kazakhstan
H
Turkey
Greece
Serbia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Azerbaijan
San Marino
I
France
Israel
FYR Macedonia
Slovenia
Malta
Andorra
J
Portugal
Romania
Denmark
Cyprus
Liechtenstein
Faroe Islands

Bearing in mind you have to finish top two to qualify (allowing for a couple of play-off spots, depending on the number of hosts), I don't think it's much different to what we have now. The main difference is that runners-up will qualify automatically rather than face a play-off, but I still assert that finishing second in any of those groups would be a pretty decent challenge.

Fecking hell, you gave us a tough group there Cymro to say the least. :eek: Bit kinder to yourself i see. Hope they never put you in charge of the draw.

[jbyrne]

Here is the team that played Iran away 2001 and most of these played in WC2002
Republic of Ireland: Given, Finnan, Breen, Staunton, Harte, McAteer, Kinsella, Holland, Kilbane, Robbie Keane, Connolly.

Given, Finnan, Kilbane, Dunne and O'Shea surely better than WC2002 defense. The present midfield and forward line for me is about the same quality as 2002's

the real difference between now and WC02 is the lack of a real target man up front. when quinn retired we were without a target man for the 1st time possibly since stapletons career started. for example quinns time on the pitch during the finals was very very limited yet he set up robbies goal v germany and won the pen against spain. i believe we will always struggle until we get someone of quinns target man ability back in the sqaud. this may seem to be a very basic view and may upset those who want us to play fantastic attacking football but the affect that our target men had over 15 yrs cannot be under estimated

[boovidge]

Clint's part Jamaican so he can bring those vibes :D

I'd prefer Scannell

[donalmcdonagh]

the real difference between now and WC02 is the lack of a real target man up front. when quinn retired we were without a target man for the 1st time possibly since stapletons career started. for example quinns time on the pitch during the finals was very very limited yet he set up robbies goal v germany and won the pen against spain. i believe we will always struggle until we get someone of quinns target man ability back in the sqaud. this may seem to be a very basic view and may upset those who want us to play fantastic attacking football but the affect that our target men had over 15 yrs cannot be under estimated

Doyle wins about 90% of his headers, he is unbelievably strong in the air....I don think we suffer in that dept too much. Also, Mick McC's side didnt rely on a target man..we played a simple passing game. I would argue that a midfield presence is what we have lacked. And since WC02 we havent had a manager who could match a system to our strengths and thus we havent succeded. I think maybe the next few years coul dbe a high point for this group of players...our senior pro's are playing good football and most are in their prime, this coupled with the talented youth we have hopefully will give us a good blend.

[donalmcdonagh]

the real difference between now and WC02 is the lack of a real target man up front. when quinn retired we were without a target man for the 1st time possibly since stapletons career started. for example quinns time on the pitch during the finals was very very limited yet he set up robbies goal v germany and won the pen against spain. i believe we will always struggle until we get someone of quinns target man ability back in the sqaud. this may seem to be a very basic view and may upset those who want us to play fantastic attacking football but the affect that our target men had over 15 yrs cannot be under estimated


the real difference between now and WC02 is the lack of a real target man up front. when quinn retired we were without a target man for the 1st time possibly since stapletons career started. for example quinns time on the pitch during the finals was very very limited yet he set up robbies goal v germany and won the pen against spain. i believe we will always struggle until we get someone of quinns target man ability back in the sqaud. this may seem to be a very basic view and may upset those who want us to play fantastic attacking football but the affect that our target men had over 15 yrs cannot be under estimated

Doyle wins about 90% of his headers, he is unbelievably strong in the air....I don think we suffer in that dept too much. Also, Mick McC's side didnt rely on a target man..we played a simple passing game. I would argue that a midfield presence is what we have lacked. And since WC02 we havent had a manager who could match a system to our strengths and thus we havent succeded. I think maybe the next few years could be a high point for this group of players...our senior pro's are playing good football and most are in their prime, this coupled with the talented youth we have hopefully will give us a good blend.

[DeLorean]

A
Spain
Scotland
Finland
Austria
Moldova
B
Germany
Czech Republic
Belgium
Belarus
Georgia
C
Netherlands
Sweden
Northern Ireland
Iceland
Armenia
D
Italy
Poland
Republic of Ireland
Albania
Montenegro
E
Croatia
Ukraine
Lithuania
Norway
Estonia
F
England
Switzerland
Slovakia
Latvia
Luxembourg
G
Russia
Bulgaria
Hungary
Wales
Kazakhstan
H
Turkey
Greece
Serbia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Azerbaijan
San Marino
I
France
Israel
FYR Macedonia
Slovenia
Malta
Andorra
J
Portugal
Romania
Denmark
Cyprus
Liechtenstein
Faroe Islands


Very interesting post. I think the trick will be to get into that group of 2nd seeds and that should make life a lot easier for ourselves. Qualifying for SA should do that I'd imagine.

[jbyrne]

Doyle wins about 90% of his headers, he is unbelievably strong in the air....I don think we suffer in that dept too much. Also, Mick McC's side didnt rely on a target man..we played a simple passing game.

i dont doubt doyles ability in the air but hes not an out and out target man. have a look at our WC02 qualifying and you'll see how often quinn was used as an outlet. robbies goal v germany was a classic target man assisted goal by quinn (for example)

[Cymro]

BarelyLegal - Some of the third and fourth seeds are decent too, though. Teams like Norway, Slovenia, Austria etc. from the fourth pot and Finland and Serbia from the third pot (among others) would all be giving some headaches.

And elroy - yeah, I did the draw randomly, but nonetheless that is a bitch of a group that Ireland got.

[DeLorean]

BarelyLegal - Some of the third and fourth seeds are decent too, though. Teams like Norway, Slovenia, Austria etc. from the fourth pot and Finland and Serbia from the third pot (among others) would all be giving some headaches.

True enough I suppose, actually those 2nd seeds look fairly ordinary except maybe The Czechs, Ukraine, Romania and maybe Sweden. I can't believe Switzerland are there and hopefully Bulgaria won't be there for much longer.

[elroy]

Very interesting post. I think the trick will be to get into that group of 2nd seeds and that should make life a lot easier for ourselves. Qualifying for SA should do that I'd imagine.

I doubt qualification would guarantee a second seed. I presume the seeds for 2016 qualifying will be based more on our qualifying performances for Euro 2012 and WC 2014.

[DeLorean]

I doubt qualification would guarantee a second seed. I presume the seeds for 2016 qualifying will be based more on our qualifying performances for Euro 2012 and WC 2014.

Of course, I got well ahead of myself there.:rolleyes:

[FahyForever]

Good original post Kevin, it´s great to see someone make the effort to write something coherant, legible and structured, rather than the half-arsed attempts you often get. Whatever your views on the post (and I think most of it´s spot on) it´s refreshing to see something which could easily be taken from a feature in a national paper. I know I will only get slagged for being pedantic, but I think it would be a real bonus to this forum if people made the effort to make their posts more readable. I´m aware some posts are just short and sweet and that some people have not got the time/inclination/education to render their submissions correct to the utmost point, but the barrage of cliched, misspelt, anti-punctuated and grammatically incorrect posts and responses on the forum is overwhelming.

If you have something to say, why not say it in your own voice instead of adopting the sickeningly familiar mantle of football cliche? We´re all victims of exposure to this genre from listening to pundits who had more brains in their feet than they do in their heads. Even in Kevin´s offering, which was miles above standard, you´ll find them creeping surrepititiously in; `frying pan into the fire´, ´reputation is tarnished´, `set the world on fire´, ´unmitigated disaster´ etc.

I´m not talking specifically about posters in this thread or any other, I would just like to see more well-informed, well written posts and less guff.

[Den Perry]

Good original post Kevin, it´s great to see someone make the effort to write something coherant, legible and structured, rather than the half-arsed attempts you often get. Whatever your views on the post (and I think most of it´s spot on) it´s refreshing to see something which could easily be taken from a feature in a national paper. I know I will only get slagged for being pedantic, but I think it would be a real bonus to this forum if people made the effort to make their posts more readable. I´m aware some posts are just short and sweet and that some people have not got the time/inclination/education to render their submissions correct to the utmost point, but the barrage of cliched, misspelt, anti-punctuated and grammatically incorrect posts and responses on the forum is overwhelming.

If you have something to say, why not say it in your own voice instead of adopting the sickeningly familiar mantle of football cliche? We´re all victims of exposure to this genre from listening to pundits who had more brains in their feet than they do in their heads. Even in Kevin´s offering, which was miles above standard, you´ll find them creeping surrepititiously in; `frying pan into the fire´, ´reputation is tarnished´, `set the world on fire´, ´unmitigated disaster´ etc.

I´m not talking specifically about posters in this thread or any other, I would just like to see more well-informed, well written posts and less guff.

Hear hear

[geysir]

At last, a poster that can spell "hear hear".

[Razors left peg]

Good original post Kevin, it´s great to see someone make the effort to write something coherant, legible and structured, rather than the half-arsed attempts you often get. Whatever your views on the post (and I think most of it´s spot on) it´s refreshing to see something which could easily be taken from a feature in a national paper. I know I will only get slagged for being pedantic, but I think it would be a real bonus to this forum if people made the effort to make their posts more readable. I´m aware some posts are just short and sweet and that some people have not got the time/inclination/education to render their submissions correct to the utmost point, but the barrage of cliched, misspelt, anti-punctuated and grammatically incorrect posts and responses on the forum is overwhelming.

If you have something to say, why not say it in your own voice instead of adopting the sickeningly familiar mantle of football cliche? We´re all victims of exposure to this genre from listening to pundits who had more brains in their feet than they do in their heads. Even in Kevin´s offering, which was miles above standard, you´ll find them creeping surrepititiously in; `frying pan into the fire´, ´reputation is tarnished´, `set the world on fire´, ´unmitigated disaster´ etc.

I´m not talking specifically about posters in this thread or any other, I would just like to see more well-informed, well written posts and less guff.

At the end of the day it is still a top top forum with some quality comments on the day to day of football both on and off the pitch.Heres hoping that next week the Irish lads will give 110% against a very difficult team because there are no easy games in international football.Even though it probably wont be sexy football I predict that Aiden McGeady will set the world on fire with some silky skills and the rest of the lads will run themselves into the ground for the team

Oh yeah......... ole ole ole

[Noelys Guitar]

At the end of the day it is still a top top forum with some quality comments on the day to day of football both on and off the pitch.Heres hoping that next week the Irish lads will give 110% against a very difficult team because there are no easy games in international football.Even though it probably wont be sexy football I predict that Aiden McGeady will set the world on fire with some silky skills and the rest of the lads will run themselves into the ground for the team

Oh yeah......... ole ole ole

Were's de sic parrot?

[tetsujin1979]

Were's de sic parrot?
I think you'll find that it's an ex-parrot now....

[Crosby87]

[quote=FahyForever;1099943]Good original post Kevin, it´s great to see someone make the effort to write something coherant, legible and structured, rather than the half-arsed attempts you often get. Whatever your views on the post (and I think most of it´s spot on) it´s refreshing to see something which could easily be taken from a feature in a national paper. I know I will only get slagged for being pedantic, but I think it would be a real bonus to this forum if people made the effort to make their posts more readable. I´m aware some posts are just short and sweet and that some people have not got the time/inclination/education to render their submissions correct to the utmost point, but the barrage of cliched, misspelt, anti-punctuated and grammatically incorrect posts and responses on the forum is overwhelming.

If you bought a paper and it was bad, would you keep reading it? If you bought a terrible book, would you keep reading? Why keep going on a site if you dont like it?
As for "Pedantic" shouldnt you translate for your slower readers?