View Full Version : IBEC ESB and Energy Costs
NeilMcD
30/01/2009, 8:30 PM
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0130/pay.html
IBEC have been showed up to be bluffers on this issue. The ESB like any profit making organisation has given the increases just like any other profit making firms in IBEC. IBEC are not involved in a major back tracking. In relation to the pay talks all the media have concentrated on the unions but it is IBEC whose members have us in the situation we are in and they are the ones trying to call the shots and hold the country to ransom and the journalists are letting them away with it.
NeilMcD
10/02/2009, 4:05 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/onetoone/
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/esb-wildcats-go-walkabout-1632459.html
pineapple stu
10/02/2009, 4:10 PM
High energy costs are a key issue under discussion today at the social partnership talks in Government Buildings.
Amazing how the Government can debate such a thing, given they raised prices themselves because no-one would come into the market to compete at the rate when only the ESB were around. Sums up my derision of "pro competition" arguments in general really. An awful lot of privatisation seems to have been about taking things away from Governments to make a select few individuals very rich. Course, no-one will address this real issue.
NeilMcD
10/02/2009, 4:11 PM
You have hit the nail on the head there stu. Well said.
pineapple stu
10/02/2009, 4:13 PM
Are posts like that allowed in this forum? :p
My dad works in the ESB; drives him mad the amount of bull**** that's spouted on this topic.
Just imagine how mad he'd be if he worked in the football business
pineapple stu
10/02/2009, 4:26 PM
I kind of work in the football business, and am completely mad. :)
Do we actually have any competition in electricity generation or supply?
I presume the ESB will maintain the network as can't really have multiple network suppliers. I know there are other companies that generate electricity in Ireland & a few business targetted retailers.
72k average ESB salary sounds a lot but not much compared to 500k+ salary for CEO. If there was alternative to the ESB the company can pay its staff all it likes but when no real choice all wage increases are going to feed into customers bills.
ESB CEO doing great job (http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22346316_ITM)
PROBLEMS with the cooling tower at an ESB power plant in Kerry have meant that 14 workers have been turning up for work every day for the last five months, but have nothing to do.
Battery Rover
10/02/2009, 5:53 PM
Do we actually have any competition in electricity generation or supply?
People getting their power through Bord Gas get a 10% discount so at least there is a small piece of competition
dahamsta
10/02/2009, 6:33 PM
Airtricity have a "10% off ESB prices" offer at the moment too. I emailed to ask if there's a minimum term; they didn't reply. So they can bite me.
adam
NeilMcD
10/02/2009, 10:20 PM
ESB has 40 per cent of the total market. Other companies are not really interested in the domestic market and they want to make their money purely from the commercial market. I do not think they are interested in supplying electricity to someone in West Kerry or North Donegal.
People getting their power through Bord Gas get a 10% discount so at least there is a small piece of competition
I believe one market they have targeted is apartment complexes (I suppose they qualify as business) so we will probably move to them.
dahamsta
11/02/2009, 12:27 AM
I do not think they are interested in supplying electricity to someone in West Kerry or North Donegal.Location has no bearing, their competitors have no infrastructural requirement. They're just resellers. Unless I'm missing something, which happens quite often.
pineapple stu
11/02/2009, 8:35 AM
ESB has 40 per cent of the total market. Other companies are not really interested in the domestic market and they want to make their money purely from the commercial market. I do not think they are interested in supplying electricity to someone in West Kerry or North Donegal.
Spot on. There are six electricity suppliers in Ireland. Although this -
Location has no bearing, their competitors have no infrastructural requirement. They're just resellers. Unless I'm missing something, which happens quite often.
- is a slight correction on your post. It's not location, it's quantity that the "competitors" are interested in, which is why the other five suppliers are almost exclusively in the corporate market. The ESB was also forced to sell electricity at an artificially low price to competitors, who could then re-sell it at a price which undercut the ESB, all in the name of competition. Absolutely ridiculous.
NeilMcD
11/02/2009, 9:42 AM
Just put the location in to bring home a point thats all. Its like private bus companies only wanting to run the Dublin City Centre to Swords route etc.
pineapple stu
11/02/2009, 10:02 AM
Technically, location is less important with electricity as isolation doesn't really increase costs much; the bus analogy isn't exactly accurate as there's extra costs in sending a bus out to Enniskerry at 1pm and then finding no-one wants to use it, whereas the electricity network is already set up.
I believe we all pay something called "public service levy" or similar to subsidise the provision of electricity to hermits living half way up mountains. Something like that anyway.
I could only laugh when I heard the ESB claim they are not allowed to reduce their prices. AFAIK the ESB make their price change submissions to the Regulator & he tells them how much of a change they are allowed. If the ESB really cared about reducing prices they would just submit a request to the Regulator & when he refuses they could just point the finger at him.
Now some level of competition from Bord Gais & Airtricity it really doesn't matter what the ESB do with their wages.
Airtricity look interesting but as said above nothing mentioned about the 10% reduction term. That said they have a good pricing section much better than the other suppliers. Once I make a decision I will definitely move from the ESB - their recent "estimated" bills have been huge. It is supposed to be easy to switch & no locked in contracts but with estimated readings seems like a bit of hassling changing too often.
dahamsta
26/02/2009, 9:29 PM
If the ESB really cared about reducing prices they would just submit a request to the Regulator & when he refuses they could just point the finger at him.Yeah pete, semi-state bodies do that all the time. Politics be damned, job suicide rocks.
soccerc
26/02/2009, 9:36 PM
I could only laugh when I heard the ESB claim they are not allowed to reduce their prices. AFAIK the ESB make their price change submissions to the Regulator & he tells them how much of a change they are allowed. If the ESB really cared about reducing prices they would just submit a request to the Regulator & when he refuses they could just point the finger at him.
Now some level of competition from Bord Gais & Airtricity it really doesn't matter what the ESB do with their wages.
Airtricity look interesting but as said above nothing mentioned about the 10% reduction term. That said they have a good pricing section much better than the other suppliers. Once I make a decision I will definitely move from the ESB - their recent "estimated" bills have been huge. It is supposed to be easy to switch & no locked in contracts but with estimated readings seems like a bit of hassling changing too often.
A few points:
If the ESB are allowed by regulator to reduce prices the competitors will still have enough margin to undercut them due to the price structure the ESB must sell energy to the new entrants.
We have artificial market competition so the incumbent generator and provider, the ESB are at a distinct competitive disadvantage with the likes of Bord Gais and Airtricity.
As for your meter reading, no matter who you use ESB Networks will still be reading it as neither BG or Airtricity have anyone on the ground so to speak.
Oh for the record I've moved to Bord Gais
pineapple stu
27/02/2009, 11:23 AM
I could only laugh when I heard the ESB claim they are not allowed to reduce their prices. AFAIK the ESB make their price change submissions to the Regulator & he tells them how much of a change they are allowed. If the ESB really cared about reducing prices they would just submit a request to the Regulator & when he refuses they could just point the finger at him.
They did do this latter. In the press release which was read on the news article announcing Bord Gáis' entry to the market, the ESB said that they couldn't reduce prices because they were set by the regulator. They had some FG politician on to point this out as well, but 90% of the article was given over to the Bord Gáis cost saving. Awful journalism as per usual for this country.
soccerc's points are spot on. But most people won't look into the reality of the situation and will just boggle at the cheek of the ESB. They just want something to moan about. The best thing for electricity prices in this country would be to go back to having the ESB as sole provider and feck any pretence of competition.
dahamsta
27/02/2009, 12:12 PM
If the ESB are allowed by regulator to reduce prices the competitors will still have enough margin to undercut them due to the price structure the ESB must sell energy to the new entrants.That doesn't seem to make sense soccerc, unless you're saying that ESB Networks has to sell energy to the new entrants for less than it can to EBS Supply?
adam
pineapple stu
27/02/2009, 12:16 PM
The ESB must sell electricity to competitors for less than it charges retail. So, to make up figures, if the ESB charge E100 for x amount of energy, they must sell that to a competitor for E80, who will happily charge E90 to redirect it and pocket the difference, having done practically no work at all.
Dodge
27/02/2009, 12:36 PM
I think dahamsta's point is that if ESB netwroks and ESB customer supply are really split, surely networks can sell electricity to customer supply for the same price they sell to Bord gais
Is seems ESB Networks is just the infrastructure. This means ESB Supply must run the Power Stations.
Who do Bord Gais get thier energy from?
I know Airtricity mainly generate their own via win farms.
pineapple stu
27/02/2009, 12:55 PM
Is seems ESB Networks is just the infrastructure. This means ESB Supply must run the Power Stations.
Basically.
Interesting that wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Supply_Board) notes that "Prices and margins are regulated by the Commission for Energy Regulation with ESB Customer Supply restricted at the moment from discounting from the prices set by the Commission for Energy Regulation unlike competitors due to its significant market operator status." So basically, once enough people switch over, the ESB can start to compete on price again. Which means people will switch back to the ESB, which means they'll get more of a market share, which means their prices will have to go back up, which means...
dahamsta
27/02/2009, 3:00 PM
ESB Networks manages all infrastructure.
ESB Generation generates electricity and sells it to Eirgrid.
Eirgrid buys electricity from ESB Generation, wind farms, etc and sells it to ESB Supply, Bord Gais and Airtricity.
ESB Supply sells energy at retail level.
The ESB has to go to the Regulator for approval if it wants to adjust it's prices. It can only do this twice a year.
Now, there's the facts, I've saved ye both ye and the journalists doing some actual research. Now ye're qualified to comment.
adam
pineapple stu
27/02/2009, 3:21 PM
Links? :p
I'm not sure how important the exact structure of the ESB is in the overall picture; it seems to equate more or less to "the ESB sells to customers", with the various stages broken down.
Either way, as per my post #23, I think your post #22 is broadly what happens. Including the bit where you say it doesn't make sense.
dahamsta
27/02/2009, 3:28 PM
Links? :pSee post #26! :)
I'm not sure how important the exact structure of the ESB is in the overall picture; it seems to equate more or less to "the ESB sells to customers", with the various stages broken down.It's very important. If the ESB wasn't broken up into these separate entities it would be anti-competitive by design. As it stands, assuming proper regulation, it should work perfectly well. Assuming proper regulation, which is something we just don't do in Ireland.
At the moment it's neither here nor there though, so to put a final nail in the coffin one assertion being made right now, here's a final fact: As of now, the ESB can't lower it's prices to match Board Gais or Airtricity.
adam
It's very important. If the ESB wasn't broken up into these separate entities it would be anti-competitive by design. As it stands, assuming proper regulation, it should work perfectly well. Assuming proper regulation, which is something we just don't do in Ireland.
I suppose Eircom should have broken into similar model.
Not sure of exact purpose of Eirgrid aside from ensuring ESB Supply separated from the other ESBs. Can Irish suppliers buy their power from abroad?
dahamsta
27/02/2009, 3:59 PM
I suppose Eircom should have broken into similar model.Absolutely. Before the selloff.
Eircom is actually split internally into wholesale and retail divisions, and the regulator is supposed to ensure that there's no unofficial communication between the two. However the comms regulator has essentially been captured (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture) by Eircom and is without a shadow of a doubt the worst regulatory body in Ireland.
And make no mistake, Irish regulators are bad. They're generally jobs-for-the-boys outfits run by industry insiders or wannabe Eurocrats, and they're generally funded almost entirely by the industries they're supposed to be regulating.
adam
Will be interesting to see how works in practice but energy supplier change supposed to be quick & easy. There is also a reference number (not customer number) which you use to change which does not allow ESB Networks know who your supplier is i.e. have to treat everyone the same. Something similar for telephone landlines would be good.
No idea what like in other countries but the amount of charges & taxes on standard bill is crazy. The government takes a large chunk through standing charges, public service levys & VAT... :(
pineapple stu
27/02/2009, 4:09 PM
See post #26! :)
Doh!! :o
At the moment it's neither here nor there though, so to put a final nail in the coffin one assertion being made right now, here's a final fact: As of now, the ESB can't lower it's prices to match Board Gais or Airtricity.
adam
Can't because it's too inefficient or can't because it's not allowed?
dahamsta
27/02/2009, 8:57 PM
The latter. See #27.
pineapple stu
01/03/2009, 5:03 PM
Yeah, thought that. This thread is confusing me; it's just four or five of us sitting round a virtual table with virtual pints nodding sagely at each other. Don't recall so much agreement here ever!
I personally think focussing on the regulation misses the point. It is ideologically driven FF that created this mess - whats the point of competition if it actually increases price and reduces service?
Also how long before ESB goes into the gas market, so two state companies can undercut each other...
pineapple stu
02/03/2009, 9:05 AM
whats the point of competition if it actually increases price and reduces service?
Rich businessmen can get even richer creaming large profits (and actually calling what profits they want), instead of it going to countries.
osarusan
05/03/2009, 9:31 AM
Going off on a tangent, has anybody switched from ESB to Bord Gais? Savings of 10% are pretty sweet if there is no disruption of service or hidden costs (such as ESB charging some fee for the use of the power cables etc).
If you have, are there any questions I should be asking before the switch? Any points I really need to go over?
dahamsta
05/03/2009, 9:38 AM
Don't just jump on the latest-advertised bandwagon, do some research first. There's a horse of a thread on Boards.ie, but you'll need to read the full thing to understand the details. Just skim past the idiots jumping for joy and/or spouting rhetoric about the ESB, they haven't a clue what they're talking about.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055491651
Look out for the posts by that dahamsta fella, it looks like he actually did some reading...
adam
So the ESB to bring down prices by 10% next month. Bord Gais & Airtricty going to copy. I see Airtricty are guaranteeing the rate until next January.
Aside from issue of reading meter the fact there is no minimum contract means in theory can switch as many times as you like...
Dodge
05/03/2009, 11:38 AM
Aside from issue of reading meter the fact there is no minimum contract means in theory can switch as many times as you like...
You'd imagine that companies wouldn't put barriers in the way of new, or returning, customers but some may bring in minimum contracts
You'd imagine that companies wouldn't put barriers in the way of new, or returning, customers but some may bring in minimum contracts
I am sure there may be a flaw in the system but it seems the way it is setup there should be no reason for minimum contracts as it is really just an electronic billing change. Not everyone will have access to their meter so that might indirectly add a 6 month minimum for them. I don't have access to my meter but might be able to get to if I try...
osarusan
05/03/2009, 2:34 PM
Don't just jump on the latest-advertised bandwagon, do some research first. There's a horse of a thread on Boards.ie, but you'll need to read the full thing to understand the details. Just skim past the idiots jumping for joy and/or spouting rhetoric about the ESB, they haven't a clue what they're talking about.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055491651
Look out for the posts by that dahamsta fella, it looks like he actually did some reading...
adam
Cheers Adam, that was well worth looking at.
Like that hamster fella, I'll wait and see before making any decision.
It was funny to read the people whose basis for switching was mainly to "give 2 fingers to the ESB", without realising their some of money will still be going to the ESB anyway.
Moved to Airtricity. Have no noticed a different in electricity quality so far...
dahamsta
18/06/2009, 10:01 AM
Moved to Airtricity. Have no noticed a different in electricity quality so far...You wouldn't, it's the same electricity, from the same power stations, supplied over the same network.
You wouldn't, it's the same electricity, from the same power stations, supplied over the same network.
I think he was kidding dahamsta...
dahamsta
18/06/2009, 5:13 PM
Given his previous posts, I wouldn't be so sure. ;)
Given his previous posts, I wouldn't be so sure. ;)
Don't be trying to back out of it now ;)
I could have suggested I was getting power cuts on the better summer days (less win)....
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