The Final Premier Division Spot

[Bunny Kelly]

Who will this go to?

If Drogheda survive they are unlikely to get a Premier division licence but would Harps or Cobh get/want one given their current situation?

So out of Shelbourne or UCD what way should it go, surely Shels are more deserving of a top division spot given how poor UCD were last year but will they get the last spot?

[DmanDmythDledge]

So out of Shelbourne or UCD what way should it go, surely Shels are more deserving of a top division spot given how poor UCD were last year but will they get the last spot?
It will be offered to UCD if one of the other three teams don't get a Premier Division license.

[superfrank]

UCD are one of the few clubs who now how to live within their means.

With all the if's and but's to be ironed out, I think UCD should get any place that's up for grabs. They don't risk financial ruin by blowing money they don't have or taking on sugar daddies who could pull the plug if things don't go their way. All clubs should take note of how they manage their money.

That said, they probably wouldn't have much of a team to survive in the Premier.

[Bunny Kelly]

Going by the rule book I'd imagine UCD probably would get offered it but Shelbourne would be much more competitive & on sporting grounds the 2nd placed First Division side is more deserving than last placed Premier Division in my opinion

[GalwayRed]

Well Harps still qualify for a licence and theyre the highest ranked team out of themselves, cobh, ucd and ourselves so i think theyll take it even if they expect theyll be relegated next season, its still some extra money availible with more tv coverage and slightly larger crowds, theyll consider it worthwhile. So my money is on Harps.

[Saint_Charlie]

Looks like Fingal are getting ready for it.

Maybe they know something we don't...

[SMorgan]

I think the FAI or Licensing Committee will bottle it and allow Drogheda stay in the top flight if they are still in existence this time next week.

After all, Drogheda will ask why they should be relegate if Cork aren't. Unless they're relegated because United Park isn't up to standard.

[happydays97]

The final place will be offered to Finn Harps.

If they are in a position or not to take up the offer is another thing

[Sam_Heggy]

Well Harps still qualify for a licence and theyre the highest ranked team out of themselves, cobh, ucd and ourselves so i think theyll take it even if they expect theyll be relegated next season, its still some extra money availible with more tv coverage and slightly larger crowds, theyll consider it worthwhile. So my money is on Harps.

What he said. :)

We strive to play such world class opposition as Bray, but hey, we can only dream for now.

[sligored]

I hope Drogheda survive but if they dont i would like Shels to come up.

Please god not Harps or UCD

Whats wrong with harps?
A good regional club is what the top division needs.
Maybe we should put fingal and shels up and send galway and harps down and set up a league of dublin.
You started supporting league of ireland in 2007 and you need to examine the history of our league before you come on spouting rubbish and not giving a reason for harps not to be in the top league.
They are building a new ground which should be ready for the start of next season and have always played by the rules.

The rules stipulate that shels are fourth on the list of teams to get the spot should any premier league team not get a licence. The fai should set up an office next door to the high court if they were to follow your disturbed reasonings

By your twice posted small minded view on how the league should be re-organised and putting clubs like sligo rovers into the second division you have again shown a complete lack of knowledge of irish football. There are soccer towns on this island who work damn hard to compete at a high level and then you want to wipe this out with the stroke of a pen.

the best clubs will always survive in this league, not the best towns.

[happydays97]

I hope Drogheda survive but if they dont i would like Shels to come up.

Please god not Harps or UCD

Why should Shel's get the chance to come up????

[sligoman]

Why should Shel's get the chance to come up????Because it means Celtic Tiger can get to the game and still be home in time for bedtime:p.

[CSFShels]

Are you sure Harps ground will be ready for next season? they just started it!


And once again,i get slashed at for caring about the well being of irish football! Ridicoulous.

And once again i say,suggest your own ideas,id really like to see them
Shels coming up is hardly the wellbeing of Irish football. If Harps are actually worthy of a Premier licence they deserve the chance to go up. I think it'd be suicide to go up if they're dealing with the sort of debts they are, because if they're dealing with such a tiny budget and getting hammered every week, the fanbase will deteriorate and might take years to claw it back down in Division One. UCD are probably in the best position to take the offer.

[sligored]

Are you sure Harps ground will be ready for next season? they just started it!


And once again,i get slashed at for caring about the well being of irish football! Ridicoulous.

And once again i say,suggest your own ideas,id really like to see them

the league of ireland has been around a lot longer than your two years support.

the way football works worldwide is that each team finds its way to its level, and does all it can to improve year on year. that is why sligo dundalk and bray are top division teams.

maybe they should reform the english premier league and demote hull and stoke and replace them with leeds and forest. how do you think that would work.

in sport you can only gain sporting advantage by progressing via a well run club/franchise and mismanagement leads to trouble. Sport does not work by who should be successful.

the league cannot be rearranged to suit you so stop trying.

have you been to sligo in your 2 years and witnessed the passion and athmosphere at a sligo game? we are the 4th highest attended team in the league of ireland and you want to stick us in the 2nd division.

Even limerick fans know they have to earn the right to play top division football. there are standards both on and off the pitch to achieve a premier division licence and sligo have easily achieved both and play a quality brand of football that has been enjoyed by many this year.

its a soccer town. not like limerick , galway or some of the other first division teams you are advocating.

if you want my opinion on change, it has been a learning curve for some teams that have overspent but we are heading in the right direction . i dont also think that ifa teams apart from linfield and possibly glentoran have anything to add to our league and from their european results i think we may be better to leave the league as it is at the moment

[LeixlipRed]

UCD clearly deserve the place in the top division. They're the highest ranked financially stable club. After UCD, Shels would be next in line for me. But with the fudge coming, both UCD and Shels will be playing in the 1st Division next year.

[Bunny Kelly]

Part of my original point was would Harps or Cobh want to be in the top division given their financial problems, for the sake of one year would the extra revenue outweigh the negative affect it would have on their support if getting hammered every week. It's hard enough to get support in this league but who want to go watch their side losing heavily every week (part of the problem at Kilkenny) because this would surely happen with the budget either side will have to operate off.

[Sam_Heggy]

Part of my original point was would Harps or Cobh want to be in the top division given their financial problems, for the sake of one year would the extra revenue outweigh the negative affect it would have on their support if getting hammered every week. It's hard enough to get support in this league but who want to go watch their side losing heavily every week (part of the problem at Kilkenny) because this would surely happen with the budget either side will have to operate off.

I can't speak for Cobh but in Harps case, of course we want to be in the Premier Division.
Granted we will most likely have a young local side (mixed with a few more experienced guys) but how could we turn down the following:

1 - Two home games against, Rovers, Derry, Sligo and Dundalk - all of which bring a sizeable support to Finn park each time we play them.

2 - Guaranteed 3 live TV matches - extra revenue, roughly worth 10 to 12 grand.

3 - With a weekly preview of our games on MNS sponsorship will be much easier obtained than if we are in the graveyard with little or no national press.

4 - Our crowds throughout the seasons in the First Division have not picked up until the final 5 or 6 weeks in the season, and even then its only if we are challenging for promotion, so to suggest low crowds is not in consideration to be honest.

5 - I really don't think the gap will be as big this season, most sides seem to be letting players go rather than strengthening.

6 - Theres not a hope of promotion with the volume of money Fingal are throwing about.

7 - To sicken CelticTiger.

[KianD]

Are you sure Harps ground will be ready for next season? they just started it!


Of course its not going to be ready for next season. SligoRed never even implied that it would be :confused:

However, it IS under construction, unlike some other planned grounds.

[Sam_Heggy]

Hope it works out for you's.

To be honest i wouldnt be that bothered to have Harps in the Prem next season.I'd much prefer them than Ucd.

Its still Shels though for me,based on facilites and fanbase.

im pretty sure we had more Harps fans than Bray fans in YOUR ground when the teams last met.

Please don't preach about a Fanbase when you support Bray.

The new ground is still under construction and if all goes to plan we should be in for the start of 2011 season. The pitch needs over a year to properly bed in.

[forza rovers]

I want Finn harps to get it.

[osarusan]

And once again,i get slashed at for caring about the well being of irish football! Ridicoulous.

I don't doubt that you care about the well being of Irish football. The problem for me with your posts is that your argument seems to be "Lets have quality teams playing quality football in quality stadiums in front of lots of fans." Yes, this would be great, but a real solution is to work out how to get from where we are now to that position.

I've already asked you how you think we should go about doing this, but got no answer. You just said better facilities will lead to more fans, which I agree with, but again, where are you going to get the money from?


And once again i say,suggest your own ideas,id really like to see them
Prominent clubs need to forget about getting any further in Europe than we've been doing, and save enough money so they'll be alive in a few years. In fact, all clubs need to stop reaching for the respective stars, and use a bit of common sense when offering contracts and spending money in other ways.

The FAI needs to squeeze every inch of publicity they can out of wherever they can.

I'm guessing that this year the licencing will be a bit of a joke, and we just have to accept that some clubs probably won't get punished like they should. But the FAI need to make clear that this will be the last time there will be any leniency. From now on, every club needs to have their books examined by the FAI like they're looking for headlice. And the FAI need to have the courage to throw the book at any club that doesn't abide by FAI rules. Clubs have shown themselves unable or unwilling to budget sensibly for the longer term. (Not all clubs obviously, but enough to make such kind of regulation sensible in my opinion)

It's time for this league to take 2 steps back, not so they can take 3 steps forward, but so it can get away from the cliff it is currently teetering on.

[Sam_Heggy]

1.No,you did not have more than us,you know that.You had about 30 and we had 600-800,dont argue.

2.I know very well about our small fanbase,i never said we had a big fanbase.

3.From what i heard the new ground will hold 6,800 fans....True?

1. Don't argue :D Great arguement, you should be Cowens right hand man. No but seriously, 30 fans to 800 your drinking too much buddy.

2. Im glad you know it

3. Yes, why do you ask?

[KevB76]

Harps would be my preference to stay up.
Or UCD. Even Cobh.

...but not Shels, not this year, not after their fans message to the rest of us in the 1st division when they thought they were promoted.
They deserve another season down here for that.

[Candystripe]

Harps for me. An extra €30k at least in home gate money, a 35min trip up the road twice and the inevitable 12 points.

[Joey Killester]

Harps would be my preference to stay up.
Or UCD. Even Cobh.

...but not Shels, not this year, not after their fans message to the rest of us in the 1st division when they thought they were promoted.
They deserve another season down here for that.

Which would that be? Not that Im concerned, just curious.

[sligored]

Well,the Fai could well be investing far more than they are now.They have to pay 70million Euro for the development of Lansdowne,yet last season they put just 5million into the Loi.

Also,i think we need a new minister for sport,Cullen doenst care about the Loi,we need a new person who actually cares about club football here and not overseas.

So in a nutshell,the Fai need to be more commited to the League and the Government need to spark an interest aswell to really go forward.



It's time for this league to take 2 steps back, not so they can take 3 steps forward, but so it can get away from the cliff it is currently teetering on.

Yes, i agree,by doing 2 things...

1.Contracts must be shorter,and more realistic.

2. The 65% Wage cap must be seriously enforced.[/QUOTE]

the fai are strapped for cash as they are stuggling to build a stadium in times of recession and they are only making a pittance on matches in croker.
We all know that mistakes have been made at loi clubs but no worse than mistakes at state bodies banking and numerous other places where money has been overspent and has resulted in disasterous repercussions.

thats like saying the banks should not have being giving 100% finance and the developers were paying too much for land but it is easy to be wise after the event.

loi clubs will find their levels and shels this year is in the first division and if the people of larger towns (sorry to pick on fans of limerick waterford and to a lesser extent galway) start to come out and support their local teams then they will have a right to compete at the very highest level.

[Sam_Heggy]

Well,the Fai could well be investing far more than they are now.They have to pay 70million Euro for the development of Lansdowne,yet last season they put just 5million into the Loi.

Also,i think we need a new minister for sport,Cullen doenst care about the Loi,we need a new person who actually cares about club football here and not overseas.

So in a nutshell,the Fai need to be more commited to the League and the Government need to spark an interest aswell to really go forward.



It's time for this league to take 2 steps back, not so they can take 3 steps forward, but so it can get away from the cliff it is currently teetering on.

Yes, i agree,by doing 2 things...

1.Contracts must be shorter,and more realistic.

2. The 65% Wage cap must be seriously enforced.[/QUOTE]


Ah now I know, its all totally clear, your Jason Byrne in disguise in a new edition of anonymous, genius.
Not really keen on the show tbh, much better in stand up.

[GalwayRed]

...but not Shels, not this year, not after their fans message to the rest of us in the 1st division when they thought they were promoted.
They deserve another season down here for that.
What message was this youre reffering to?

[sligored]

The likes of Limerick,Galway and Waterford will come out in a more professional setup

if they cant progress in the current set up , that makes a mockery of your reform of the league.

I hate using this as an example but would you advocate sending leeds united back to the premiership as they are a big club with lots of fans and a great stadium.

[LeixlipRed]

...but not Shels, not this year, not after their fans message to the rest of us in the 1st division when they thought they were promoted.
They deserve another season down here for that.

What are you talking about? Did you not get enough salt in your chips that night? The pathetic reaction of your fans when you scored is something you should be more concerned about. Maybe when your club is more than two seasons old you can have rivalries with other clubs. It's really quite special, trust me :o

[bigmac]

if they cant progress in the current set up , that makes a mockery of your reform of the league.


Not really, as to progress in the current set up requires more than just a well run and well supported team. My argument runs as follows - feel free to disagree with whichever points you want.


Money has been the most important factor in the achievements of the successful clubs in the LOI over the last few years.
Bohs, Drogs, Cork, Shels & Pats all padded out their budgets with non-sustainable incomes from directors, land etc..
Without a comparable budget, it is impossible for another club to attain the same level of success.
Successful clubs attract more fans than when they're unsuccessful.
Therefore, the clubs that must rely on regular income streams (advertising, tickets etc..) are hampered in their growth. They need more fans to become more successful, but they can't attract those fans without more money.


What I would like to see happen is the wage cap very rigorously policed. While the bias would still be towards the wealthy teams, it would connect the wealth of a team directly to its fanbase through ticket sales and advertising revenue (more fans means bigger target audience, means more money...). Should this be the case, then it opens the door for the clubs such as Limerick, Galway and Waterford who have no competition for fans and removes the bias towards the Dublin clubs introduced by soaring property prices in the capital (Shels' adventures could not have been financed to the same extent by a similar deal had they held a long term lease on Turners Cross or some other ground outside Dublin).

[Mr A]

Not really, as to progress in the current set up requires more than just a well run and well supported team. My argument runs as follows - feel free to disagree with whichever points you want.


Money has been the most important factor in the achievements of the successful clubs in the LOI over the last few years.
Bohs, Drogs, Cork, Shels & Pats all padded out their budgets with non-sustainable incomes from directors, land etc..
Without a comparable budget, it is impossible for another club to attain the same level of success.
Successful clubs attract more fans than when they're unsuccessful.
Therefore, the clubs that must rely on regular income streams (advertising, tickets etc..) are hampered in their growth. They need more fans to become more successful, but they can't attract those fans without more money.


What I would like to see happen is the wage cap very rigorously policed. While the bias would still be towards the wealthy teams, it would connect the wealth of a team directly to its fanbase through ticket sales and advertising revenue (more fans means bigger target audience, means more money...). Should this be the case, then it opens the door for the clubs such as Limerick, Galway and Waterford who have no competition for fans and removes the bias towards the Dublin clubs introduced by soaring property prices in the capital (Shels' adventures could not have been financed to the same extent by a similar deal had they held a long term lease on Turners Cross or some other ground outside Dublin).

Spot on.

[sligored]

Not really, as to progress in the current set up requires more than just a well run and well supported team. My argument runs as follows - feel free to disagree with whichever points you want.


Money has been the most important factor in the achievements of the successful clubs in the LOI over the last few years.
Bohs, Drogs, Cork, Shels & Pats all padded out their budgets with non-sustainable incomes from directors, land etc..
Without a comparable budget, it is impossible for another club to attain the same level of success.
Successful clubs attract more fans than when they're unsuccessful.
Therefore, the clubs that must rely on regular income streams (advertising, tickets etc..) are hampered in their growth. They need more fans to become more successful, but they can't attract those fans without more money.


What I would like to see happen is the wage cap very rigorously policed. While the bias would still be towards the wealthy teams, it would connect the wealth of a team directly to its fanbase through ticket sales and advertising revenue (more fans means bigger target audience, means more money...). Should this be the case, then it opens the door for the clubs such as Limerick, Galway and Waterford who have no competition for fans and removes the bias towards the Dublin clubs introduced by soaring property prices in the capital (Shels' adventures could not have been financed to the same extent by a similar deal had they held a long term lease on Turners Cross or some other ground outside Dublin).

a well run team will adhere to the salary cap- i dont see what the difference is that you dont agree with me bigmac. a well supported team will have a higher income and therefore a higher salary cap as a percentage of income.

i cant figure where your opinion varies from mine.

nobody is disputing that mistakes were made in the past by clubs and the fai.

[pineapple stu]

a well run team will adhere to the salary cap
But the badly run teams won't adhere to it, will win everything in the short term, stunting the growth of the well run clubs who won't spend as much.

As an example, every club bar us and Shamrock Rovers had some sort of financial problem last year, be it asking players to take wage cuts, not paying bills, massive cut backs for 2009, etc. As a result of all this (and other factors too), we couldn't compete financially, finished last, and now our team will be completely broken up and we've been set back at least a couple of years on the pitch.

If those clubs hadn't overspent, we'd have gotten a couple of extra players, clubs would have been part-time instead of full-time and some players wouldn't have come back to Ireland at all, and so we'd have been much more competitive. Short term, it looks great that we're doing well in Europe, etc, but long term, Bohs, Drogs, Shels, etc have regressed rather than progressed, and the properly progressive clubs have also regressed.

[A face]

As a result of all this (and other factors too), we couldn't compete financially, finished last, and now our team will be completely broken up and we've been set back at least a couple of years on the pitch.

But Stu, ye are UCD. There are loads of students willing to kick a ball around once they have their homework done like? ;)

[pineapple stu]

Just like there's loads of students willing to go to games, yeah?

[BonnieShels]

What message was this youre reffering to?

I think he's referring to the point just before John Phelan walked out of the club shop with a banner at the end saying the Phoenix has risen or something along those lines.

or maybe this one...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/3018867217_bf643b4033.jpg

[holidaysong]

Ah, I remember those banners.. :D

[KevB76]

Which would that be? Not that Im concerned, just curious.


What message was this youre reffering to?


Just coming towards the end of the match, when it looked like ye's were going up, the fans in the stand at the far end held up a large banner which read "**** THEM ALL"

No big deal really, just made our equaliser taste all that sweeter. Thought ye were too good for the 1st division, turned out ye werent (well for another year anyways). :)

[Black and White]

Not fair deleting my post...didnt mean it in that way...just a general sort of thing!!good enough for the shels fans anyway!!

[bigmac]

i cant figure where your opinion varies from mine.



Yeah, re-reading your post, I'd say I took the wrong inference from it. I assumed you were talking about teams that haven't progressed up to now in the setup as it was up to the end of this season. I would agree that if the sugar-daddy style reckless investment isn't controlled somehow, then the reform of the league will not have worked.

[Ezeikial]

As an example, every club bar us and Shamrock Rovers had some sort of financial problem last year

Do you just want to stir things up with provocative statments, or do you actual think that is true?

[pineapple stu]

Every club in the Premier, I should have said. Wasn't paying attention to the first.

[Buile Shuibhne]

John Delaney has confirmed to setanta.com that Finn Harps would be next in line if a Premier Division place opens up............


http://www.setanta.com//uk/Articles/Football/2009/1/23/LOI-Exclusive-Delaney-on-LOI/gnid-36642/

[Mr A]

So the big question is- Are Drogheda even applying for a premier license? That article would seem to indicate that Delaney thinks they will, but that could just be diplomacy.

[Magicme]

Every club in the Premier, I should have said. Wasn't paying attention to the first.

That will change this year boy!! :p

[pineapple stu]

Not if Harps and Cobh have anything to say about it. :)