The Worst Taoiseach in State History?

[Reality Bites]

Brian Cowen so far has had a desperate time as Taoiseach. The rejection of Lisbon Treaty, The Economic Meltdown, and now the Rumour Mill of a rift between himself and other high ranking Ministers. My own personel view is Cowen Personality is not quiet right for a Statesman - He lacks Charisma and is very awkward in front of camera, and has an inability to talk to the people he represents, indecisive and unable to come up with a plan and stick to it - (Budget 08).. Conservatism intransigence and inability to think outside the box i.e current social partnership arrangement, slow and tardy. He lacks Vision.

One of his biggest faults is he is part of the Cartel that got us here in first place - The unHoly Triniy - Bankers / Politicians and Developers. Fact he was a Personal Friend of Anglo Head Crook Seanie Fitz, also I remember in a Pub two years ago a friend telling me that Client of his a large Developer was swapping tips on Horses over text messages...

Cowen once said that working in the Health Sector was like Angola, he obviously seemed to resort to Angola type politics with patronage being high on his previous list of agendas.. He needs to act and act fast to save himself from receiving the above mentioned title.

[OneRedArmy]

Its hard to compare as its very dependent on the circumstances they inherit and you can really only judge after they go.

But its not looking good for Biffo :D

As an example, history SHOULD judge Bertie extremely poorly (regardless of his popularity at the time). Apart from the Northern Ireland peace process, his time in office was characterised by personal inpropriety, no real improvements in education and health despite over-flowing public coffers, and responsibility for stoking one of the biggest asset price bubbles in the history of modern civilisation.

But if you asked Joe Public, I'd guarantee many would say its Biffo what caused all of this.

So in answer to your question I reckon Biffo has a bit to go before he scrapes Bertie's level.

[pete]

I don't care about charisma however he needs to show leadership which he has been unable to do so far. The way the government backed down on some of budget issues sent out a bad signal that the government had no plan.

The problem with Biffo is his leader was Bertie who was the king of dittering. Dittering works to some extent when loads of cash to buy people off but now the country needs someone who has a plan & is willing to ignore protests & complaints to implement it. No surprise Fascist leaders emerge in bad times when strong leadership needed.

[mypost]

He was a poor Health Minister, poor Finance Minister, and now a poor Taoiseach, leading an equally incompetent Tanaiste, and Finance Minister.

Micheal Martin, and Dermot Ahern would be far better Taoiseachs imo. As Bertie showed, you can provide leadership, while not getting wound up by criticism for providing leadership.

The Taoiseach is supposed to be above the schoolyard howling and yelling antics in the Dail, but instead is willing to engage in it, which sets a negative impression among the electorate.

[Reality Bites]

The Taoiseach is supposed to be above the schoolyard howling and yelling antics in the Dail, but instead is willing to engage in it, which sets a negative impression among the electorate.

Very True, I remember Biffo taking a pot shot at Enda Kenny (easy target) about being not qualified to comment on tribunals I just remember thinking what an undignified School Boy remark...
A comment was made recently on the Vincent Browne show about the lack of political talent across the board in Ireland when compared with the amazing rise of Barack Obama in the US, maybe the last 15 years of prosperity has dulled the mind and caused a lack of sharpness or focus because by God we really do have weak representatives. Eamonn Gilmore and Richard Burton the best we got I think.

[Macy]

As an example, history SHOULD judge Bertie extremely poorly (regardless of his popularity at the time). Apart from the Northern Ireland peace process, his time in office was characterised by personal inpropriety, no real improvements in education and health despite over-flowing public coffers, and responsibility for stoking one of the biggest asset price bubbles in the history of modern civilisation.
We're most definitely reaping what Bertie sowed. However, Cowen (and the great white knight McCreevy) were the right hand men, so only right that he also has to deal with the legacy.

I always thought he was brutal and he has no achievements in office. Being able to shout down and interupt in debates and talk gibberish when answering questions makes you an intellectual heavy weight in Irish politics :eek:

[Bluebeard]

...we really do have weak representatives. Eamonn Gilmore and Richard Burton the best we got I think.

Exactly. And one of those is a Welsh actor dead 25 years!

[monutdfc]

We're most definitely reaping what Bertie sowed. However, Cowen (and the great white knight McCreevy) were the right hand men, so only right that he also has to deal with the legacy.

I always thought he was brutal and he has no achievements in office. Being able to shout down and interupt in debates and talk gibberish when answering questions makes you an intellectual heavy weight in Irish politics :eek:
So true. He was always described as 'intellectual' and a 'great debater'; I have never seen evidence of either, and you are spot on in your description of his boorish debating "style"

[OneRedArmy]

Completely agree on his debating style.

Typical lawyers arrogance IMO.

[Stuttgart88]

I''ll never forgive Bertie for shooting down eircom Park

[shantykelly]

he could probably be forgiven his pig ignorance if he showed leadership, if he charted a course and stuck to it. instead, he simply seems to be lurching from crisis to crisis. Lisbon rejection, property crash, budget issues, it will only get worse for him. unfortunately, the majority of the current generation of irish national politicians all seem to be cut from the same cloth. if there were any true leaders in FF, they would oust cowen and try and sort things out.

[Reality Bites]

he could probably be forgiven his pig ignorance if he showed leadership, if he charted a course and stuck to it. instead, he simply seems to be lurching from crisis to crisis. Lisbon rejection, property crash, budget issues, it will only get worse for him. unfortunately, the majority of the current generation of irish national politicians all seem to be cut from the same cloth. if there were any true leaders in FF, they would oust cowen and try and sort things out.

Correct, but sadly the intellect and appetite doesn't appear to be there, 15 years of prosperity has dulled the minds of politicians, Cowens has been exposed as a middle of the road country politician who is badly out of his depth...These kind of tough times see a major shift to more right/left wing politics, Anger will grow as people become more disorientated with current incumbents.

[shantykelly]

remember reading an article, long time ago, (think it was in the school library) regarding a theory that during times of economic and social upheaval (as now), there is generally a move amongst the population towards a more conservative mindset, and a growth in opposition towards change in most shapes and form. i think this will hold up to a point, until economic structures start to really break down, and we see an upsurge in left/right-wing radicalism. are we likely to see the sort of situation that characterised the west during the early 30's? economic failure was one of the contributing factors towrds the collapse of weimar germany and the growth of nazism and fascism. anyone think sarkozy would look good in a brown shirt?

[mypost]

Cowens has been exposed as a middle of the road country politician who is badly out of his depth...Anger will grow as people become more disorientated with current incumbents.

But the public voted for them last year, and no doubt will, if called again. FF are supposed to be able to handle the economy. That's why they got re-elected. The people will believe the myth that Enda can't lead the country. But even if he can't, he can still do a better job than Cowen.

Eamon Gilmore can do better than the pair of them, but as he's not with one of the big two parties, there is no chance of him getting the top job.

[bennocelt]

See that idiot Bertie Ahearn writing (yeah like he really did write this!!!) in the INdo today giving pointers to what Obama should do when he takes charge:rolleyes:

wouldnt it be nice to think - as a still sitting TD - that he might give Cowen a few tips on how to run the country - since Bertie was the one who started the boom, and brought peace and prosperity to all!!!!!!!!
Ireland is such a great country:mad:

[Fr Damo]

Eamon Gilmore can do better than the pair of them, but as he's not with one of the big two parties, there is no chance of him getting the top job.
I agree. Joan Burton seems to talk as if she knows what she is talking about which says nothing really, but illustrates how short on ideas Biffo and Bruno are.

I am just back from a few days in England. The perception there is while the UK is fe*kd too, there is some sort of leadership in that Joe Public thinks Mr Darling and Brown can lead some sort of recovery. Mr Public on the otherhand is reading unsensored reporting in the FT etc about the state we are in and like most of us, believes we are doomed. This perception will remain as long as there is a 09 OY S class merc parked on double yellows in Kildare street. Until we get honesty about the state of Anglo and the state of the public finances over the next three years (i.e a plan!!) no one will buy any Irish bank shares.

[pete]

This perception will remain as long as there is a 09 OY S class merc parked on double yellows in Kildare street. Until we get honesty about the state of Anglo and the state of the public finances over the next three years (i.e a plan!!) no one will buy any Irish bank shares.

Come on now do you not realise that Biffo really did not want to use that car but because it was already bought & couldn't get dealer to take it back he had to use it. Sure it was losing money sitting in the garage. Some PR guru was paid a tidy sum to devise that bluff the least you can do is fall for it.

:o

[jebus]

People used to compare Cowen to Gordon Brown across the water. Both took over from iconic leaders (good or bad), both took over at a time when the economy was heading for it's crash, both got off to rocky starts, both seemed to have leadership problems and questions were being asked of their leadership skills.

The difference between the two men in the first month of 2009 as opposed to even 6 months ago is staggering however. Brown has united his party and started climbing opinion polls, he has come up with a clear strategy for riding out the recession and has rewon a lot of the public's faith and now looks like he might be able to at least put up a good fight in a general election.

Cowen in contrast has staggered from one crisis to another, the budget being the biggest one where he showed a complete lack of the leadership qualities we need right now. The only two things he has as an advantage over Brown is a) Fianna Fail is such an Ol' Boys Club that they would never directly challenge his leadership in the manner David Miliband did to Brown, and b) Irish people still vote along party lines that over a half century old, and don't seem willing to change this tradition.

Cowen needs to be shown the door in my opinion, personally I'd take Fianna Fail out of government, but the Irish gombeen mentality of 'sure what else will we do?' that has seen what must surely be one of the most corrupt governing parties in the western world in power for so long doesn't look like letting that happen

[Macy]

Cowen in contrast has staggered from one crisis to another, the budget being the biggest one where he showed a complete lack of the leadership qualities we need right now.
Where the fook is he? Never mind not showing leadership, he's not even showing himself.

[Bald Student]

Japan

[Macy]

He's back a few days now, and he shouldn't have run off to hide there anyway.

[pete]

Japan

Long way to go for new jobs PR announcement. In my experience job announcement figures are always at the top end (i.e. up to X jobs)

Brown seems to lack the charisma but has a good financial brain. Cowan doesn't seem to have either although if he appointed a competent Minister for Finance he would have better chance. I get the impression Cowan/Lenihan are being lead too much by senior department staff & outside contracted advisors.

[Fr Damo]

I get the impression Cowan/Lenihan are being lead too much by senior department staff & outside contracted advisors.


McWilliams, George Lee and Alan Ahern have the benifit of 20 20 vision in fairness, but who are the senior department staff advising the government? I don't believe Cowan and Lenihan got us here on their own but Alan Ahern seems to know what he is talking about in short simple language and with his CV I cannot see why they are not up and down to Galway to speak to him (or others if someone suggests a name).

Or am I wrong, have the two ronnies cocked this up themselves?

[monutdfc]

[

McWilliams, George Lee and Alan Ahern have the benifit of 20 20 vision in fairness, but who are the senior department staff advising the government? I don't believe Cowan and Lenihan got us here on their own but Alan Ahern seems to know what he is talking about in short simple language and with his CV I cannot see why they are not up and down to Galway to speak to him (or others if someone suggests a name).

Or am I wrong, have the two ronnies cocked this up themselves?
It is on the record that Alan Ahearn was consulted by Lenihan before the budget. He explicitly told him not to interfere in the housing market (again, on the record - there was an IT article a couple of weeks before the budget). Lenihan ignored him with the ill-conceived Home Choice Loan scheme (aka the government's sub-prime lending scheme) and Ahearn has put the boot in since.
It is not on the record but it appears that McWilliams has been consulted since then, but it appears there has been a parting of the ways there too, with McWilliams putting the boot in too.
O'Kelly I don't expect to be consulted anytime soon. Nor Lucey.

[mypost]

Irish people still vote along party lines that over a half century old, and don't seem willing to change this tradition.

Cowen needs to be shown the door in my opinion, personally I'd take Fianna Fail out of government, but the Irish gombeen mentality of 'sure what else will we do?' that has seen what must surely be one of the most corrupt governing parties in the western world in power for so long doesn't look like letting that happen

The "I'll do it my way" approach was a total failure when it came to making the public sector savings. For the first time in history, a Taoiseach failed to agree a deal with the social partners before announcing it to the country. That's not bad luck, that ultimately, is his fault, and makes him a lame duck of a leader.

Industrial disputes are soon to follow, as the public sector think that they are immune to sharing the load with the private sector, who's only action they can take is to join the dole queue.

[Angus]

I am clearly in the camp that this government is a mess and is devoid of strategy, has utter contempt for the electorate and desperately needs a period in opposition.

However, I applaud the announcement yesterday. It showed cojones and the unions will struggle to justify a strike.

[dahamsta]

I could not believe Cowen's comments about working nights and weekends yesterday, it was truly mind-boggling.

[monutdfc]

I could not believe Cowen's comments about working nights and weekends yesterday, it was truly mind-boggling.
missed that one dahamsta - was it in the speech or the press-conference?

[Macy]

However, I applaud the announcement yesterday. It showed cojones and the unions will struggle to justify a strike.
If he had any balls he would've just announced this back in December rather than go through the game playing and time wasting of pretending to try and introduce it through social partnership and instead presenting it in the early hours of decision day. He would also have got full year savings. He's stumbling around the place clueless not sure of his own mind.

[dahamsta]

missed that one dahamsta - was it in the speech or the press-conference?In the speech, early on.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20090203.xml&Node=H8#H8


The Tánaiste, the Minister for Finance and myself have devoted a large amount of time since the beginning of January to these discussions, in formal meetings and through many informal contacts and discussions, including over several nights and weekends. No greater priority could have been given to these efforts and I believe that the social partners themselves would acknowledge this fact.What does he want, a medal? The people to shed a tear at his selfless devotion to the country?

Newsflash for you Cowen: It's your job, and your fault. Perhaps if you'd brought the Dail back earlier instead of dithering like the incompetent buffoon you are, and listened to people with a clue, it might have been a little easier.

Do the country a favour, go back to Offaly, leave running the country to people with a brain.

adam

[NeilMcD]

The "I'll do it my way" approach was a total failure when it came to making the public sector savings. For the first time in history, a Taoiseach failed to agree a deal with the social partners before announcing it to the country. That's not bad luck, that ultimately, is his fault, and makes him a lame duck of a leader.

Industrial disputes are soon to follow, as the public sector think that they are immune to sharing the load with the private sector, who's only action they can take is to join the dole queue.

Its terrible that you have fallen for the old trick by the likes of IBEC. You have fallen into the frame of the debate they have constructed you Pit low paid private sector workers versus low paid public sector workers. Good man.

[Macy]

Its terrible that you have fallen for the old trick by the likes of IBEC. You have fallen into the frame of the debate they have constructed you Pit low paid private sector workers versus low paid public sector workers. Good man.
Aint that the truth. Not too long ago all pensions were defined benefit until they were sacrificed for increased profits in the Private sector, and a few years down the line the right have successfully got these same workers to actively facilitate a race to the bottom in conditions of employment.

The untcs that are sitting back laughing are the establishment elite like IBEC, politically appointed top level civil servants and politicians who just keep counting their money and pension entitlements.

[pete]

Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=83548-qqqx=1.asp)


THE cost of flying Tánaiste Mary Coughlan and Defence Minister Willie O’Dea to Texas to meet with Dell boss Michael Dell last December has been confirmed to be more than €164,000

Government are really trying to save money in current economic climate. :rolleyes:

[kingdom hoop]

Shocking cost alright, but fairly tenuous link to Cowen is it not? Unless you're suggesting Cowen should've thrown the two of them into a currach and set off rowing across the Atlantic? (now there's an image to colour your day:))

Fair enough a diktat from Cowen that endeavours to spark a culture of parsimonious cost-saving (or something less than extravagant waste anyway) is necessary, but you can't expect the Taoiseach to micro-manage everything.

[pete]

Shocking cost alright, but fairly tenuous link to Cowen is it not? Unless you're suggesting Cowen should've thrown the two of them into a currach and set off rowing across the Atlantic? (now there's an image to colour your day:))

Didn't deserve its own thread so this seemed best location ;)

Govt jet is massive wage of money & would be best sold for scrap as I would guess it costs money even sitting on the tarmac when has to be serviced. Doesn't even make sense to use it for that trip given needed 2 refueling spots each time. Might have got change out 10k for First Class commercial return flight.

[Dodge]

There is a need for a government jet (every other country has loads of them) but if there are direct scheduled flights, then they should be used.

[TheBoss]

Do people find it a bit odd, that Blair and Ahern both step down, and not so long later, this crisis happens, I think them 2 knew of this issue so got out while they could. I have a feeling they knew about the banking system and just sat back and let them do what they wanted, they are to blame if you closely.

[Pauro 76]

Dont know about you, but I wonder what Barack Obama will think of him when Biffo comes over for Paddy's Day.

[Bluebeard]

Do people find it a bit odd, that Blair and Ahern both step down, and not so long later, this crisis happens, I think them 2 knew of this issue so got out while they could. I have a feeling they knew about the banking system and just sat back and let them do what they wanted, they are to blame if you closely.

I thought it at the time - the two, particularly Ahearn, had no personal intention of departing the scene a year previously, regardless of what may have been said after the events. They hung on until the last minute they thought they could get away without being seen as being progenitors of it. Blair - as was his style with elections - did it a little bit more inconspicuously, though he made such a song and dance of his departure, he probably masked a lot of the early flurries of recession.

Ahearn, a little more cunning, needed more shoe-horning, but he left it to the very death in the eyes of the electorate - as was his style with elections - and another two weeks and he'd be bagging a good chunk of the blame. Irish people do not seem to see Bertie as remotely involved - a few weeks later and it would have been his fault entirely. He also shrewdly picked as his successor a man so loathesome and loathing that Bertie seems to be JFK in comparison, and that was no error.


Irish Examiner (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=ireland-qqqm=ireland-qqqa=ireland-qqqid=83548-qqqx=1.asp)
Government are really trying to save money in current economic climate. :rolleyes:

Surely that should not have been a trip to be undertaken by the Minister for Defence? Surely that would be Jimmy Devins brief? Or are we buying a server to computerise our defence system protecting us from the threat being posed by North Korea?

[monutdfc]

Surely that should not have been a trip to be undertaken by the Minister for Defence? Surely that would be Jimmy Devins brief? Or are we buying a server to computerise our defence system protecting us from the threat being posed by North Korea?
We have to shore up Willie's vote don't you know....

....
...
imagine the conversation between Coughlan and O'Dea on that flight

[pete]

Surely that should not have been a trip to be undertaken by the Minister for Defence? Surely that would be Jimmy Devins brief?

Wille is the local TD which apparently makes him the best option. Wille said afterwards he pleaded with Michael Dell. :o

[bennocelt]

talking about wastage - do we really need to have so many TDs in this country, do we need the Seanaid, or what the hell do we have an army for? - amongst other things!

[Bluebeard]

Wille is the local TD which apparently makes him the best option. Wille said afterwards he pleaded with Michael Dell. :o
I thought that Dell was out in Bray, or thereabouts. Or local in that he claims Shannon is in his jurisdiction (for this kind of thing), and the stop-overs mean that he is essentially the local TD for all of the US?

Representative of sovereign state "Pleading" with business exec. Nice. Should help the standing of the country now that everything has been tossed up in the air. I think I'll look for some kind of WSA Passport from here on in...

[NeilMcD]

Dell is in Limerick, the one that was closing anyway. Not defending it but just correcting thats all.

[Fr Damo]

[quote=Bluebeard;1099909]I thought that Dell was out in Bray, or thereabouts.

You cannot be serious

[DmanDmythDledge]

If he had any balls he would've just announced this back in December rather than go through the game playing and time wasting of pretending to try and introduce it through social partnership and instead presenting it in the early hours of decision day. He would also have got full year savings. He's stumbling around the place clueless not sure of his own mind.
I think if he had had any balls he'd have left Anglo Irish Bank go to the wall. Yes, the government have to refinance the banking sector, but just saving AIB and BOI would have been enough (I can see these been nationalised by the end of the year). I don't see the point of increasing the national debt to save Anglo Irish. Guaranteeing the loans etc that people had would have been sufficient.


I thought that Dell was out in Bray, or thereabouts.
Cherrywood, close enough.

[mypost]

Dont know about you, but I wonder what Barack Obama will think of him when Biffo comes over for Paddy's Day.

Probably along the lines of

"Jeez man, now I know why you're paid more than me, when as head of parliament, you can flee your nation on it's national holiday".

[Lionel Ritchie]

As an example, history SHOULD judge Bertie extremely poorly (regardless of his popularity at the time). Apart from the Northern Ireland peace process, his time in office was characterised by personal inpropriety, no real improvements in education and health despite over-flowing public coffers, and responsibility for stoking one of the biggest asset price bubbles in the history of modern civilisation. ...that's it in a nutshell. Even on his supposed crowning glory with the peace process -that had reached endgame in any event by the time Bertie arrived and there were others who took far greater roles and risks. Bertie was just in the seat on the headline dates.

My enduring memory of him will be his answer when asked about the overheated property sector and (treasonous IMO) dripfeeding of servicable land for construction that was being engaged in to keep prices artificially high. He shrugged, he smirked and said there was nothing to be done as scarcely more than half a dozen individuals controlled the bulk of the land in question.

[mypost]

Saw Dunphy's rant on tv the other night, but he was right to ask why Cowen was addressing a bunch of businessmen (some of whom are responsible for the current situation) last Thursday evening instead of the wider public.

Obama addressing his electorate about his stimulus package now. He comes across as welcoming, optimistic, authoritative and confident. That's below our Taoiseach. He goes to China, Japan, and America and talks to power-freaks in the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, to deliver his addresses about how bad things are, and what he plans to do about it.

The electorate?? "Do as you're told, my way or the highway" is the tone. Running away from his own people.

[pete]

Saw Dunphy's rant on tv the other night, but he was right to ask why Cowen was addressing a bunch of businessmen (some of whom are responsible for the current situation) last Thursday evening instead of the wider public.

Not sure I would choose Dunphys rants as basic for political argument but I get your point.

Isn't Dunphy a FF-er or any I wrong? Maybe he was just a supporter of Bertie? Then again Dunphy changes his opinion so often...