Fair Play to the FAI

[higgins]

but my point is to dismiss Shels fans' notions that this is an inconsistency on the FAI's part compared to what happened them. It's the exact same.


The cawley issue was well before the meltown at Shels anyway..

You're only posting about it in every secnd thread as you've run out of othe stuff to have a go at Shels over.

To compare the Shels and Drogheda cases is just silly.

Cork Drogheda and Shamrock Rovers are in the same pot for paying creditors less than 100%.

Shels done exactly what Bray Cobh Harps Athlone and probaly some more done this year in that they couldn't meet the payments through in full for the full season but paid it all back after the league finished.

I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong but it's not fair to compare Shels and Drogheda.

[blackholesun]

To compare the Shels and Drogheda cases is just silly.

Cork Drogheda and Shamrock Rovers are in the same pot for paying creditors less than 100%.

He is probably refering to how the mess was created, not how it was cleaned up.

The Drogs and Shels is very similar in that both clubs chased glory spending money supplied by builders while living beyond their means with a poor support considering their success!

bhs

[Celdrog]

I do stand to be corrected on this, but the CL money has not gone to the Drogs yet. It goes to the FAI to be distributed. They can use this for their guarantee.

Bear in mind this is the same FAI that 6 years ago told Drogheda United they had 24 hours to pay them €100,000 (when we owed them nothing) or we would be kicked out of the league and we were in far less trouble then than we are now.

In my mind the FAI is actually supporting the league, certainly more than they used to.
If the government can guarantee the banks what in the name of God is wrong with the FAI trying to keep some clubs going.

Lets kick Drogheda, Cork, Cobh, Athlone, Galway, Sligo, Boheminas out of the league. Would the FAI be responsible if they stood by while that happened?

[bellavistaman]

Ya fair play to the fai for what there TRYING to do for us, any other club would get 100% backing but not our twisted ****ing club.

[Dodge]

The Drogs and Shels is very similar in that both clubs chased glory spending money supplied by builders while living beyond their means with a poor support considering their success!


Different though in that in Drogheda's case the builders had an active say in how the money was spent where as with Shels it was jus the Shels board that frittered away the money they raised from a land deal.

There's comparisons to other clubs though...

[pineapple stu]

Every time you're pulled up on something you move to more made up bull.
Can I just point out that the last time you accused me of making up bull was over my comment that Shels are still drawing down funds from Tolka and making losses. Both those comments have been subsequently verified in, respectively, the national press (source Shels) and a website run by a Shels fan (extratime).

Have you ever read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?


Do you seriously think the FAI would have done Ollie a favour like that !!
:D :D

[Celdrog]

I do stand to be corrected on this, but the CL money has not gone to the Drogs yet.
Apparently I stand corrected. Makes the FAI seem even more interested in the league.

[pete]

why is that very likely .what r u basing that on ? you know something i dont ?

Ok, i will rephrase.

If Drogs do not have the money & the FAI pay the players does this make them in breach of licencing rules?

[Dodge]

Yes. Where is the suggestion that the FAI will be paying wages though?

[Celdrog]

Ok, i will rephrase.
If Drogs do not have the money & the FAI pay the players does this make them in breach of licencing rules?Its hypothetical now, the players have accepted the deal, no future payments agreed.
Fair play to each and every one of them.

[Longfordian]

That's not what it says here, mentions "unspecified future payments in 2009":

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/eircomleague/news.asp?n=35459

Why would the players not accept the improved offer, with the future payments guaranteed by the FAI, rather than the original offer?.

[brianw82]

Oh FFS.

Moderators, PLEASE. Do we need ANOTHER bickering thread?

[pete]

Drogs website says:


We are pleased to announce that a settlement has been agreed with the players in relation to outstanding monies owed to them by Drogheda United FC. The PFAI has accepted that this offer is in full and final settlement to all players.

That is not very clear as full & final could still mean payments over the next few months. Given statements after the FAI meeting yesterday that sounds more logical?

[HarpoJoyce]

That's not what it says here, mentions "unspecified future payments in 2009":

http://www.eleven-a-side.com/eircomleague/news.asp?n=35459

Why would the players not accept the improved offer, with the future payments guaranteed by the FAI, rather than the original offer?.


Drogs website says:



That is not very clear as full & final could still mean payments over the next few months. Given statements after the FAI meeting yesterday that sounds more logical?


The 'full and final' may refer that the parties can't pursue any more money after the agreement and payment schedule agreed today.

On-topic;
FAI are still cool.

[pete]

The 'full and final' may refer that the parties can't pursue any more money after the agreement and payment schedule agreed today.

Last comment on this as don't want to harp ;) on about it but yes that sounds correct although obviously payments may continue through some of next season.

[Longfordian]

Yep full and final settlement means they can't come back looking for any more than is agreed to be paid under this deal. Doesn't mean it's a once off payment, not that it really matters.

[pineapple stu]

Oh FFS.

Moderators, PLEASE. Do we need ANOTHER bickering thread?
If you've a problem with a post, report it. Easiest way.

[higgins]

Can I just point out that the last time you accused me of making up bull was over my comment that Shels are still drawing down funds from Tolka and making losses. Both those comments have been subsequently verified in, respectively, the national press (source Shels) and a website run by a Shels fan (extratime).

Have you ever read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?


:D :D

You're wrong again ..
You said Shels were overspending.
Shels are not overspending!!

I'd explain it to you but if I did you'd ignore the answer and move on to some other crap. Seems like you have a list of tpics there that you just keep running through. Each time they are explained you choose to ignore it.

I've got a lot of unanswered questions on here from you where you just blank the thread when the going gets tough.

[pineapple stu]

You're wrong again ..
You said Shels were overspending.
Shels are not overspending!!
You don't think a 2008 loss of pushing E100k when you've as much debt as you do isn't overspending?

The rest of your post is gibberish. The "tough questions" I "avoided" were confirmed in media reports. I don't see any reason to go back on them. Shels continue to overspend (which I define as making a loss) and to draw down on the sale of Tolka. Why you continue to lie about this is a question you seem happy to avoid.

[HarpoJoyce]

You don't think a 2008 loss of pushing E100k when you've as much debt as you do isn't overspending?

The rest of your post is gibberish. The "tough questions" I "avoided" were confirmed in media reports. I don't see any reason to go back on them. Shels continue to overspend (which I define as making a loss) and to draw down on the sale of Tolka. Why you continue to lie about this is a question you seem happy to avoid.

Making a loss isn't my definition of 'Overspending'.
In a previous post you mentioned that your earlier comments on Shels drawing down were 'previously verified'. But higgins is asking about your comments on 'over-spending'. It's important to get the term right from the beginning otherwise you slander clubs unnecessarily.

[higgins]

Well said HarpoJoyce.

Stu knows we have debts, Stu doesn't know what the figure for those debts were last year or the year before or the year before.
Stu doesn't know what the figure for those debts are now.

Stu doesn't know a lot about Shels yet he seems happy to let on that he does.

How do you know our loss is pushing 100k ?
You've heard a figure of 70 being mentioned and you've rounded up to 100k have you!! Great system Stu.

Fact is you don't know what the total loss was for Shelbourne this year and you don't know what our debts were before and after the current season.

Without thos figures how can you back up what you're saying ?

[BulmersKid]

Well said HarpoJoyce.

Stu knows we have debts, Stu doesn't know what the figure for those debts were last year or the year before or the year before.
Stu doesn't know what the figure for those debts are now.

Stu doesn't know a lot about Shels yet he seems happy to let on that he does.

How do you know our loss is pushing 100k ?
You've heard a figure of 70 being mentioned and you've rounded up to 100k have you!! Great system Stu.

Fact is you don't know what the total loss was for Shelbourne this year and you don't know what our debts were before and after the current season.

Without thos figures how can you back up what you're saying ?

Now I don't want to be seen to be taking Stus side here but:

If you have existing debt, and then make a loss during the previous season i.e spend more than you earn, How is that not considered Overspending?

[Longfordian]

Fact is you don't know what the total loss was for Shelbourne this year and you don't know what our debts were before and after the current season.

Without thos figures how can you back up what you're saying ?


It'd be easy enough to get hold of previous years' figures from the CRO wouldn't it?. €2.50 to download the accounts if I remember correctly.

[John83]

It'd be easy enough to get hold of previous years' figures from the CRO wouldn't it?. €2.50 to download the accounts if I remember correctly.
I think that whatever way Shels are incorporated or registered, they don't publish those figures.

[higgins]

If you think it's easy to get hold of the shels debt figures then be my guest .. :)
Stu assumes that the overall debt has not reduced over recent years.

He has posted that Shels are overspending and yet has no figures for the debts over the last few seasons or the losses made this season.

There was no basis for posting what he posted around 6 months back. Although like the Cawley situation the time has nothing to do with it, he'll link anything together just to confuse things.

[Longfordian]

Are they not trading as a limited company?. They certainly were at the time of their finanical difficulties, the winding up orders and all that. Accolade Limited. I thought all limited companies had to file accounts at some point?. For the record I don't really care, just curious.

Edit: List of submissions made here. I don't know whether the figures would be on any of these but Shels are definitely trading as Accolade.

http://www.cro.ie/search/submissionse.asp?number=106863&BI=C

[John83]

Are they not trading as a limited company?. They certainly were at the time of their finanical difficulties, the winding up orders and all that. Accolade Limited. I thought all limited companies had to file accounts at some point?. For the record I don't really care, just curious.

Edit: List of submissions made here. I don't know whether the figures would be on any of these but Shels are definitely trading as Accolade.

http://www.cro.ie/search/submissionse.asp?number=106863&BI=C
Yes, Shels are Acolade (and vice versa). I don't know the specifics of why they don't publish those figures, just that they use some exemption. Pineapple Stu can probably be more helpful in that regard.

[pineapple stu]

If you have existing debt, and then make a loss during the previous season i.e spend more than you earn, How is that not considered Overspending?

Exactly. You're in debt, you run up a decent sized loss, and that's not overspending? Nonsense.

Shels don't publish accounts.

[Buile Shuibhne]

Shels budgeted to lose a modest 70k going into last season which included servicing debts to a number of creditors going back to our implosion.

Not an unusual or unsound business practice.

The shortfall was then made-up by drawing down from our only asset - Tolka Park. Not an ideal situation - but we're surviving and moving on.

[pineapple stu]

Thanks for backing me up, Fintan.

Servicing creditors has nothing to do with the loss you make; that's solely a cash flow issue.

[Bald Student]

Thanks for backing me up, Fintan.

Servicing creditors has nothing to do with the loss you make; that's solely a cash flow issue.
Is interest on a debt not included in the P&L account?

[pineapple stu]

It gets accrued alright. In reality though, interest on debtors is rarely charged. Given Shels don't appear to have massive bank loans or the like - they just owe people what they couldn't pay when the money ran out - I'd imagine it'd be minimal (I'm taking this view from the phrase "servicing creditors" as opposed to "servicing loans" or "servicing debt"). So servicing bank loans incurs interest; "servicing creditors" usually just involves paying them up and ignoring interest.

[Buile Shuibhne]

Thanks for backing me up, Fintan.

Servicing creditors has nothing to do with the loss you make; that's solely a cash flow issue.



You originally stated that Shels were overspending.

My point is the the modest loss of circa 70k was planned/budgeted.

Shels paid all budgeted & contracted wages in full and on time throughout last season.

Many other clubs did not - and now owe far greater sums in wages, to Revenue, etc..

If you want to accuse clubs of overspending - I suggest you look elsewhere.

[SMorgan]

When clubs are submitting their financial forecasts for next season are they allowed to put a sizeable portion of their income under the heading of 'Begging'?

I am just asking because that’s how Drogheda United appear to be raising most of their money.:confused:

[Mr A]

When clubs are submitting their financial forecasts for next season are they allowed to put a sizeable portion of their income under the heading of 'Begging'?

I am just asking because that’s how Drogheda United appear to be raising most of their money.:confused:

What's your point?

What do you want the Drogheda fans to do, just let their club die?

[Dodge]

Not to mention tha the amount of money "begged" is tiny compared to the amounts already raised through "normal" methods

[SMorgan]

What's your point?

What do you want the Drogheda fans to do, just let their club die?

My very serious point is that clubs have to submit forecasts for the next season and I think we're on a hinding to nothing if those forecasts include items such as revenue from filling shopping bags at the local supermarket or bucket collections.

However, I do accept that my use of the word 'begging' was wrong and my point doesn't just relate to Drogheda United.

[pineapple stu]

My point is the the modest loss of circa 70k was planned/budgeted.
I'd be quite happy that this is covered in any reasonable definition of overspending. That it was planned is irrelevant. You may as well justify the E1m+ a year lost under Ollie as planned and therefore not overspending.

For a First Division club, E70k of a loss isn't exactly modest either.

[Mr A]

My very serious point is that clubs have to submit forecasts for the next season and I think we're on a hinding to nothing if those forecasts include items such as revenue from filling shopping bags at the local supermarket or bucket collections.

However, I do accept that my use of the word 'begging' was wrong and my point doesn't just relate to Drogheda United.

Well I think the FAI have begun to show that they've had enough of fantasy budget projections and are clamping down. This is definitely a positive development, although I suspect they're only really hitting the clubs that made the biggest losses last season.

In relation to the original topic, I see that the Cobh members have now accepted the FAI's rescue plan.

[pineapple stu]

although I suspect they're only really hitting the clubs that made the biggest losses last season.
No problems with that. Makes a change from turning a blind eye to those clubs as in the past.

[Mr A]

On the other hand past performance is not necessarily a guide to future performance. Harps have been one of the better citizens in terms of budgeting etc over the past decade but last year lost the plot and set ourselves back years. Hopefully the FAI are being as objective as possible with their assessments for next year's budgets.

[pineapple stu]

That's true too.

It was in one of the papers that the FAI have now vetoed three budgets. Wonder who the other two are? Wouldn't be surprised if Bohs were one.

That said, it remains to be seen what practical effect the move has. It's useless if clubs draw up a new budget and then spend silly money anyway.

[BulmersKid]

That's true too.

It was in one of the papers that the FAI have now vetoed three budgets. Wonder who the other two are? Wouldn't be surprised if Bohs were one.

That said, it remains to be seen what practical effect the move has. It's useless if clubs draw up a new budget and then spend silly money anyway.

What paper was that report in?

[Mr A]

Sounds pretty incredible to me that they would only have vetoed three of them.

[Macy]

If you want to accuse clubs of overspending - I suggest you look elsewhere.
I have to stay I'm genuinely surprised that shels continue to draw down the Tolka money for day to day spending. It's quite shocking really.

[pineapple stu]

What paper was that report in?
I'll try dig up the link. It was a throwaway line in an article linked on another forum about something else.

Edit - Indo link (http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/big-spenders-pass-the-point-of-no-returns-1598295.html).


We have already rejected three of the budgets presented because they were not realistic.

[SMorgan]

I don't understand. How could the FAI have a budget from the likes Drogheda United for the next 12 months?

[Mr A]

That's an interesting question- have Drogheda even prepared a license application? I heard a whisper previously that they were not even going to apply for the premier.

[pineapple stu]

I heard a whisper previously that they were not even going to apply for the premier.
Cue whinges from their fans in a couple of years' time about how the FAI relegated them unfairly.

[Dodge]

I don't understand. How could the FAI have a budget from the likes Drogheda United for the next 12 months?

Who said they did? Delaney just said they refused 3 budgets. He didn't say how many he recieved. As licensing is ongoing, some clubs may not have sent theirs in yet...