The Motoring Industry & The Recession [Archive]

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 10:57 AM

I didn't think the number on the plate was linked to when the car was registered anymore?
Course it does.

No sympathy for car dealers as means they have to slash their used car prices to more realistic prices.
Realistic prices are what people will pay. Car dealers are getting raped on used cars since the VRT changes, and will do for some time yet, unless they go out of business first, as many are doing. But trust socialist Pete to have "no sympathy" for local businesses without doing any sort of back-up thinking.

prince20

07/01/2009, 10:59 AM

I have just picked up my new car this morning,
09 D 968

pete

07/01/2009, 11:33 AM

Realistic prices are what people will pay. Car dealers are getting raped on used cars since the VRT changes, and will do for some time yet, unless they go out of business first, as many are doing. But trust socialist Pete to have "no sympathy" for local businesses without doing any sort of back-up thinking.

I suspect dealers are in trouble due to the exchange rates & overall economic situation in the country as people don't buy cars when losing their jobs. If they drop the prices of used cars they will sell them. I am looking myself at the moment as probably never a better time.

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 11:43 AM

KevB76

07/01/2009, 12:08 PM

I've only seen one 09 so far, other years I've always seen 3 or 4 by 2nd/3rd Jan.

KevB76

07/01/2009, 12:13 PM

I don't see how exchange rates could possibly have anything to do with it.

Here's an example my brother was on about a few days ago;

Nissan Quashquoiwhatever, around �25000 here, about �15000 in UK - at the moment thats about �15000. VRT is approx �4600 on this car, so buy in the UK and import, you save around �5000.
The longer strerling remains weak, the more and more people will cop on to this and buy their cars across the water.

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 12:22 PM

But that's all well and good in theory; in practice, people aren't doing that (except maybe near the border), so it's not causing the decrease in used car prices.

pete

07/01/2009, 12:45 PM

No, they're in trouble because the VRT changes meant their stock of, say, E2m is now only worth E1.4m and they have to take huge hits on cars to get rid of them. This has been happening for almost a year now.

Everyone has taken a hit on that as trade ins or now also worth less.

I don't see how exchange rates could possibly have anything to do with it.

With sterling almost at parity with the Euro it makes it a lot more attractive to import new & used cars.

Ultimately dealers need to shift their used stock & the only way that will happen is with lower prices even if they have to make a lose.

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 12:48 PM

Everyone has taken a hit on that as trade ins or now also worth less.
No sympathy for them having to slash their used cars to more realistic prices.

With sterling almost at parity with the Euro it makes it a lot more attractive to import new & used cars.
But people are lazy and the vast majority won't bother.

soccerc

07/01/2009, 1:27 PM

But that's all well and good in theory; in practice, people aren't doing that (except maybe near the border), so it's not causing the decrease in used car prices.

It's happening and Northern dealers are actively seeking business from the south.

Here's an example of the Qashqai with a �5k saving (http://www.charleshurstgroup.co.uk/special-offers/NISSAN/QASHQAI/3718/)

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 1:40 PM

They can offer alright, but my point about people being lazy still stands.

I work in the motor trade; people going to the north or to England isn't the cause of our problems at present.

paul_oshea

07/01/2009, 1:44 PM

know a lad whose auld boy bought an avensis over here for �6699, bringing it straight home and VRT is only 2700 euro.

soccerc

07/01/2009, 2:00 PM

They can offer alright, but my point about people being lazy still stands.

I work in the motor trade; people going to the north or to England isn't the cause of our problems at present.

Stu, my point is, I am aware of that deal because someone I know travelled norht last week and bought one, delivery is tomorrow, registered, Vat and VRT paid to his Dublin address.

Word of mouth will soon spread the deals and anyohne who has any sense, even if lazy will seek out the best deal for their pocket.

Last year I changed and the dealer whom I previously purchased two new cars just didn't want to deal, I travelled 50 miles away and saved almost �3k.

I then told others of how I was treated by both and do you know what? the country dealer has since sold a few new cars to friends and rang me one day to thank me for recommending and offered a free full service on my car which he followed up in writing.

That's service

pete

07/01/2009, 2:10 PM

Here's an example of the Qashqai with a �5k saving (http://www.charleshurstgroup.co.uk/special-offers/NISSAN/QASHQAI/3718/)

When a NI dealer quotes Euro prices complete with VRT & paperwork included importing will look more tempting.

SIMI are lobbying the government for crackdown on people not paying VRT on imports as well as new scrappage scheme.

soccerc

07/01/2009, 2:13 PM

When a NI dealer quotes Euro prices complete with VRT & paperwork included importing will look more tempting.

Pete

That price (in the link) is in Euro with Republic of Ireland VAT and VRT paid and offers a saving of �5k on a Qashqai 1.5 dci Visia

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 2:40 PM

Word of mouth will soon spread the deals and anyohne who has any sense, even if lazy will seek out the best deal for their pocket.
It really won't. There'll always be the few smart ones, but most people won't. The same was said when the euro came in - now that we have perfect price transparency, we can see the best deals and buy at the cheapest prices across Europe. Nothing much changed though. (As an aside, too, Irish garages are importing as well, which negates the effect somewhat).

The thread was originally about the lack of '09 cars; that's true and down primarily to the recession. Other facts mentioned include the decrease in new car sales last year (true; down to the VRT changes which caused people to postpone January orders to July to save a few grand, and then to postpone again to January to get an '09 car) and the reduction in used car prices (true; down to the VRT changes also; basically, most cars dropped in value in July, which led to a situation where a new car was worth almost what a one-year-old model was. This by necessity resulted in a similar price shift in the used car market, which is what has everyone in trouble; essentially, any stock held around July was an instant loss maker).

Currency fluctuations between euro/Irish pound and sterling have happened before and will happen again; they're not, as Pete suggested, the main, or even a significant, cause of the problems facing the Irish car market today.

pete

07/01/2009, 2:54 PM

Pete

That price (in the link) is in Euro with Republic of Ireland VAT and VRT paid and offers a saving of �5k on a Qashqai 1.5 dci Visia

My post was badly phrased. was trying to agree that NI dealer is very clever as hassle of VRT is likely to put off many people. If someone wants a new car & can save thousands going north is it a no brainer.

gaisc�och

07/01/2009, 3:32 PM

One '09 so far in Castlebar driving home. Thats all I've seen. The prices are still a joke €15,600 a bog standard Peugeot the motor industry aint copping on. If they inproved the spec of the cars then maybe people could be presuaded to part with a few bob.

paul_oshea

07/01/2009, 3:33 PM

the country dealer has since sold a few new cars to friends and rang me one day to thank me for recommending and offered a free full service on my car which he followed up in writing.

Thats country :D

IF the pocket hits Stu, people will start going further a field, but i take your point on laziness of ppl. I just dont understand it either. I'd call it the "can't be arsed" gene.

pete

07/01/2009, 4:03 PM

One '09 so far in Castlebar driving home. Thats all I've seen. The prices are still a joke �15,600 a bog standard Peugeot the motor industry aint copping on. If they inproved the spec of the cars then maybe people could be presuaded to part with a few bob.

Thats mainly a tax issue.

That said in my limited experience with main dealers especially for servicing the service (pardon the pun) has been terrible. Charging E50 per hour to let some kid tinker if not value for money especially when they actually break things in attempt to fix.

pineapple stu

07/01/2009, 4:27 PM

That said in my limited experience
I think you could have stopped there, to be honest.

I had a customer a while back who gave out that our mechanics came from countries where they don't even have BMWs. (We had two non-nationals in a staff of about ten, both from countries with BMWs). Unfortunately, it's those kind of ignorant views which predominate in our moan-centric culture.

dahamsta

07/01/2009, 5:16 PM

pineapple_stu, while I agree with you that Irish people are quite lazy (plus of course there's the whole recession business going on), suggesting that they won't travel a few hundred miles to save �5k isn't realistic. If you're going to buy a car anyway, you're going to travel to get that kind of bargain.

Whether it'll stimulate fresh sales in another matter entirely, of course.

adam

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 10:24 AM

suggesting that they won't travel a few hundred miles to save �5k isn't realistic.
Most won't. Genuinely.

In any event, as a cause of the industry's problems, as Pete suggested, it's way down the list. Even the VAT increase is more problematic.

gaisc�och

08/01/2009, 11:18 AM

I wish I was in a position to go over to England and bring back 200 cars. (I know you can only bring back three per year) Sell them for €600/700 cheaper than the dealers.

We shouldn't even have to pay the VRT is not European law.

Just to show how mean some of them are.
We get all this rubbish over-heads this and over-heads that.
Fact is some of the garages will gladly sell you a used a car "as is" not a bother to them. €6000 no gaurantee not even 6 months.

Adding €800 in some cases €1000 to a car to line their pockets.

The motor industry is one of the most corrupt industries in the country.

The recession wont be long softening their cough making it a buyers market.

pete

08/01/2009, 11:18 AM

For curiosity sake if nothing else & even at Euro = 90p sterling a new car is at least 20% cheaper importing. The more you are spending the more to save even paying full Irish VAT & VRT. UK VAT plays a part but there is also a 20% difference in pre tax prices. Must be either Irish dealers or distributors who are talking the extra profit but maybe they still think Irish people won't look to save thousands.

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 11:25 AM

Adding �800 in some cases �1000 to a car to line their pockets.
Imagine a business making profits. :rolleyes:

The motor industry is one of the most corrupt industries in the country.
Wow. Now there's a sweeping statement. Do you want to offer anything to back it up? Anything at all.

OneRedArmy

08/01/2009, 11:32 AM

Imagine a business making profits. :rolleyes:

Wow. Now there's a sweeping statement. Do you want to offer anything to back it up? Anything at all.Its about the only industry in Ireland thats been found guilty of price fixing, cartels and collusion on a nationwide basis. On multiple occasions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/cartel.html

gaisc�och

08/01/2009, 11:41 AM

Imagine a business making profits. :rolleyes:
.

My father and I both worked in a garage and seen exactly what was happening. Seen a person trade in a car for €1000 less than it's market value two days later it was on the forecourt for €1200 more than it was traded for. Now them there be profits.

Wow. Now there's a sweeping statement. Do you want to offer anything to back it up? Anything at all.

Take off the blinkers mate. Evidence is all around you.

pete

08/01/2009, 11:41 AM

Its about the only industry in Ireland thats been found guilty of price fixing, cartels and collusion on a nationwide basis. On multiple occasions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/cartel.html

I don't think its fair to tar an entire industry with the same brush except obviously Citroen dealers ;)

I love this quote from link

For the defence, senior council Michael O'Higgins, said profit margins were very tight in the industry. His client was trading for his survival and the deal was not done out of greed or maximising profit.

How did he keep a straight face saying that. :D :eek:

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 11:51 AM

My father and I both worked in a garage and seen exactly what was happening. Seen a person trade in a car for �1000 less than it's market value two days later it was on the forecourt for �1200 more than it was traded for. Now them there be profits.
Now them there be profits? Well duh. As I said, imagine a business making profits. E1000 is a perfectly normal margin for a car. Would you rather it was sold on at cost? In the two days, it was presumably checked over for faults and what have you, adding extra hidden costs to the car. Absolutely nothing wrong with what you just described; just standard Irish hysterics on your part.

Its about the only industry in Ireland thats been found guilty of price fixing, cartels and collusion on a nationwide basis. On multiple occasions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/cartel.html
Technically, that just means people working in the motor industry are stupider than normal. ;)

:o

gaisc�och

08/01/2009, 12:08 PM

Now them there be profits? Well duh.
Do they need to rob the general Irish public in the process of making a profit?

As I said, imagine a business making profits. E1000 is a perfectly normal margin for a car.

That's why the motor industry is in a heap.

Would you rather it was sold on at cost? In the two days, it was presumably checked over for faults and what have you, adding extra hidden costs to the car.

I had imagined the �200 was the expense of cleaning and servicing the car?

Absolutely nothing wrong with what you just described; just standard Irish hysterics on your part.

Yes there is something wrong with it. These people made a mint in the last 20 years by ripping off the general public and now times are bad they coming out crying in the media about the lack of car sales. If they lessen their profits then they would sell more. It's simple economics.

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 12:34 PM

Do they need to rob the general Irish public in the process of making a profit?
They're not.

That's why the motor industry is in a heap.
Nothing to do with it, as I've explained earlier in the thread.

I had imagined the €200 was the expense of cleaning and servicing the car?
You had imagined? You've been presenting yourself as someone who knows the industry well so far. Which is it?

The cost of preparing a car depends on what's wrong with it obviously. Out of that grand must come (for a normal garage anyway) an inspection, a valet and knocking out of dents, not to mention VAT on the profit and loss of margin through people haggling and getting better deals elsewhere - a cartel of the people, you might almost say. Obviously, overheads, etc have to be paid afterwards. I'll ask again - do you think the car should be sold at cost?

I'm sorry, but you come across as one who's completely ignorant of what they're talking about, but who wants a good whine anyway. Standard Irish stuff really.

OneRedArmy

08/01/2009, 12:50 PM

On that particular point, I'm with Stu. I don't see a problem with them taking a margin of 1,200 on a used car.

BUT, my dads been trying to buy a new car for 6 months and he can't find a particular German manufacturer's dealer to take his car in part exchange, AT ANY PRICE! They won't even negotiate.

If thats not a sign of an industry that is completely doomed in its current structure then I don't know what is.

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 12:52 PM

Large motor dealers are looking to cut stock significantly to improve cash flow while they make large losses on the stock they held around July. They usually have a few smaller traders who they deal with though, and would sell straight on to them. Where are you based?

(I agree it's a bad sign obviously; I disagree exchange rates have caused it).

dahamsta

08/01/2009, 2:05 PM

Most won't. Genuinely.I think you're just pulling that out of the air stu, so I think you should drop it. I will too. Please try to stick to facts from this point forward, as is the policy of the forum.

Its about the only industry in Ireland thats been found guilty of price fixing, cartels and collusion on a nationwide basis. On multiple occasions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1028/cartel.html
The fine in that case is an absolute joke. Yerman must have been laughing his ass off at it.

noby

08/01/2009, 3:00 PM

I wish I was in a position to go over to England and bring back 200 cars. (I know you can only bring back three per year) Sell them for �600/700 cheaper than the dealers.

I would wish you well in your venture, but if I was buying a car I wouldn't touch that deal with a barge pole. It would take a lot more than �600 to persuade me to buy from someone at the side of the road as opposed to a dealer.

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 3:11 PM

Please try to stick to facts from this point forward, as is the policy of the forum.
Technically, it's Off Topic, not Current Affairs. ;)

But yeah, I think one thing, you think another, it's speculation both, so no bothers leaving it there and moving on.

It would take a lot more than �600 to persuade me to buy from someone at the side of the road as opposed to a dealer.
Illegal to sell from the side of the road too, among other things. It's something the Government are apparently going to start clamping down on.

pete

08/01/2009, 3:46 PM

Illegal to sell from the side of the road too, among other things. It's something the Government are apparently going to start clamping down on.

I presume he meant it as a turn of phrase as opposed to literally at the side of the road which obviously would be illegal.

Was there a story last year about some guy renting out space in his field at the side of the road for private sales?

Mechanics will probably see increase in business as more people keep their older cars & look to maintain for a bit longer.

pineapple stu

08/01/2009, 4:04 PM

You have to register as a motor dealer to be allowed sell cars. Legally. Side of the road per se has nothing to do with it.

Fr Damo

08/01/2009, 4:06 PM

I don't see how exchange rates could possibly have anything to do with it.[/quote]

Because You or me or your cousin can go up North, buy a car at a base price less vrt and 15% vat in � sterling. Bring into the south, pay VRT and 21.5% Vat and because of the exchange rate this amount will be less than the euro price in the Dublin forecourt!!

It worked the other wat about 5 or 6 years ago when english people came over here with a strong pound. They don't pay any VRT or Vat at all but when they land in Holyhead they just pay the Vat of 17.5% and an admin fee. This also amounted to less than the garage forecourt price in the UK.
Exchange rates have lots to do with it, and this counrty will have the bleakest year in our economic history this year. There is going to be massive depopulation over the next three years.