View Full Version : The Motoring Industry & The Recession
You have to register as a motor dealer to be allowed sell cars. Legally. Side of the road per se has nothing to do with it.
What about private sale?
Who do you register with? No that I don't believe you but can't see any reason to have this besides protectionism.
chopper harris
08/01/2009, 5:46 PM
just one....... 09 g 263 in Athlone last Sunday night. Audi A 4. Looked the dogs.
pineapple stu
08/01/2009, 5:50 PM
What about private sale?
Not 100% sure. I bought my car off home; that's probably allowed, but certainly going to England, picking up a few cars, bringing them home to your garden and selling them is illegal.
Can't remember who you register with; SIMI possibly. I'll have a check see. It's never been enforced properly before, but I think there's pressure to enforce it now with garages struggling. Every bit helps and all that.
Edit - my google's gone wonky; doing a search for pages in Ireland and it's giving me how to register as a dealer in New Zealand and America. Have it in work somewhere.
09-D-19xx went out today (can't remember the xx)
Edit edit - here's (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1992/en/si/0409.html#zzsi409y1992a5) info on applying for a trade licence. I think that's the one I'm looking for!
Just bought an 07 Mondeo 2.0 Zetec in UK this week for €7,500 and will pay €3,800 in VRT when I bring it over this weekend.
Flight over with Ryanair and boat back costing me €120.
dahamsta
09/01/2009, 1:21 PM
Well done dotsy. Great to see Irish people knuckling down for a good bargain. We're going to see lots more of it in the months ahead, but for some reason a lot of Irish still don't seem to have grasped it.
adam
Just bought an 07 Mondeo 2.0 Zetec in UK this week for €7,500 and will pay €3,800 in VRT when I bring it over this weekend.
Flight over with Ryanair and boat back costing me €120.
Sounds like a great deal. Any idea how much you would expect to pay here?
I don't see how exchange rates could possibly have anything to do with it.
Because You or me or your cousin can go up North, buy a car at a base price less vrt and 15% vat in £ sterling. Bring into the south, pay VRT and 21.5% Vat and because of the exchange rate this amount will be less than the euro price in the Dublin forecourt!!
It worked the other wat about 5 or 6 years ago when english people came over here with a strong pound. They don't pay any VRT or Vat at all but when they land in Holyhead they just pay the Vat of 17.5% and an admin fee. This also amounted to less than the garage forecourt price in the UK.
Exchange rates have lots to do with it, and this counrty will have the bleakest year in our economic history this year. There is going to be massive depopulation over the next three years.[/QUOTE]
You don't pay VAT when you import a second hand car from the UK (one of the benefits of being in the EU). You only have to pay VRT.
Sounds like a great deal. Any idea how much you would expect to pay here?
I have seen them for between €20k and €22K here for similar. You would get it cheaper for cash but it is still a huge difference.
Buying it from a reputable dealer around the corner from our UK office. Our company has bought 3 or 4 cars from them in the last few years and had no problems. They have a good reputation locally.
Fr Damo
09/01/2009, 6:18 PM
You don't pay VAT when you import a second hand car from the UK (one of the benefits of being in the EU). You only have to pay VRT.[/quote]
I know that but I was refering to a new purchase.
Seeing as the press and some public on about us un patriotic Irish people going to Newry or Enniskillen for basic shopping items and often stapels, etc why was this not such a big deal 2 or three years ago when RTE interviewed the throngs boarding flights to New York in persuit of shopping bargins before xmas? Wasn't this the same thing surely?
(ps, 242 miles today, midlands/cavan drogheda and back the M4 and not 1 zero 9 to be seen)
pineapple stu
09/01/2009, 8:18 PM
why was this not such a big deal 2 or three years ago when RTE interviewed the throngs boarding flights to New York in persuit of shopping bargins before xmas? Wasn't this the same thing surely?
Presumably OK so long as they flew Aer Lingus.
By may somewhat crude calculations on E20-25k new car the Euro would have to be equal to close to approx 75p for the base (pre tax) prices to the same in the UK & ROI. It isn't that long ago Euro was equal to 65p.
chopper harris
10/01/2009, 11:10 AM
I see Lenihan is saying now the UK government have let Sterling fall to give their exporters some competitive advantage and is looking for the other 14 countries who use the Euro to put pressure on Number 11. Isn't Lenihan in the same party as Albert Reyonlds was when as Minister of Finance in 92, actually devalued the punt. Reynolds also claims this to be his most finest hour.
We are not going to get out of this mess with this lot. What odds are there for a General Election for next year? I'm going to put 20% of my weekly pay on, 20% being the cut I accepted last month.
OneRedArmy
10/01/2009, 1:21 PM
Lenihan should be shot for his lack of basic economic understanding.
The Brits would've bankrupted themselves trying to prop up Sterling. They may yet bankrupt themselves in any case.
Time to go Brian, you are the Weakest Link...
brianw82
10/01/2009, 1:51 PM
I have no sympathy for the motor trade. All these garages springing up from nowhere in 'the good times' and now that times are bad, they're going to disappear just the same.
It's possibly the most frivilous industry in the whole country, based on people's own vanity more than anything.
the 12 th man
10/01/2009, 2:26 PM
I have no sympathy for the motor trade. All these garages springing up from nowhere in 'the good times' and now that times are bad, they're going to disappear just the same.
Whatever about the owners of garages there's a lot of ordinary joes out there,mechanics,sales people etc losing their jobs in the motor industry here so it's not as "simple" as that.
brianw82
10/01/2009, 4:24 PM
Of course, Joe Soap is the one who pays the price. I'm not 'happy' that he's out of a job.
We have to face the fact though, that there are/were far too many car dealerships around, all trying to sell someone something they don't need (ie. a new numberplate)
dahamsta
10/01/2009, 5:08 PM
I've never understood the whole new car every 1-3 years business. If I won a million in the Lotto I'd certainly treat myself, but if you can't afford to pay cash for it then it's just idiocy. It's probably one of the worst "investments" a person can make, given the depreciation in the first year.
adam
the 12 th man
10/01/2009, 5:23 PM
I've never understood the whole new car every 1-3 years business. If I won a million in the Lotto I'd certainly treat myself, but if you can't afford to pay cash for it then it's just idiocy. It's probably one of the worst "investments" a person can make, given the depreciation in the first year.
adam
As well as the status thing,I think a lot of people don't want the bother of things going wrong/replacing parts etc thats involved with owning an older car and are willing to pay a premium.
We need 2 cars in my house-mine is a 99 reg and the missus's is 00.
There's something to be said for not having a car loan:)
Fr Damo
10/01/2009, 5:24 PM
I've never understood the whole new car every 1-3 years business. If I won a million in the Lotto I'd certainly treat myself, but if you can't afford to pay cash for it then it's just idiocy. It's probably one of the worst "investments" a person can make, given the depreciation in the first year.
I agree I would never buy a new car but your logic of not buying one without credit from somewhere needs explaination.
How do you expect a family with 2.4 children on one income of average industrial wage and the other income part time in Centra save 20k for a 2 year old diesel while running their current rust bucket into the ground? Car are a depreciating "asset" but very few on the roads are outright purchases with Cash. That is except for yours obviously..... and the travelling community. Not one company I worked for bought their reps cars outright, the IIR and cost benifit analysis was always in favour of hire purchase and these companies had very bright financial accountants!
pineapple stu
11/01/2009, 4:55 PM
I've never understood the whole new car every 1-3 years business.
Pure Irish vanity, made more obvious by our almost unique registration system. (Though I do think it's one of the clearest systems in the world too).
Interesting to note the quantity of older cars in almost any foreign country you go to. I was in Spain over the new year, and there were Renault 4s, Renault 5s, Seat Marbellas, Seat Malagas, old Fiestas - nobody would be seen dead driving one of those in Ireland.
dahamsta
11/01/2009, 5:02 PM
As well as the status thing,I think a lot of people don't want the bother of things going wrong/replacing parts etc thats involved with owning an older car and are willing to pay a premium.With modern cars, a difference of 1 or 2 (or more) years will make very little difference. That'll be a saving of 1k minimum, and more as you go up the scale. Planned obscelence will kick in at some point, but my old man's quarter-million mile Carina E diesel might beg to differ.
I agree I would never buy a new car but your logic of not buying one without credit from somewhere needs explaination.The point I was trying to make is that buying a new car, by whatever method, is like flushing money down the toilet. The minute you walk out the door you've written off a minimum of a thousand euros, as I mentioned above, and probably a lot more. So unless the person has major disposable income, they're a fool. You can switch "cash" out for "disposable income" if you like, but I'd probably come back and tell you that anyone with that kind of money buying a car on credit is also a fool. A house maybe, but not a car.
adam
Fr Damo
11/01/2009, 6:16 PM
still not sure of your logic Adam becuase I while accept a car will depreciate more in the first couple of years than the rest of it's life, but weather that money is yours or the banks, it's still gone. Isn't your argument more about the value of the depreciation rather than how it is funded?
Credit is the heart beat of an economy, Ireland even more so as we only have 4m consumers here. The Credit crunch as it has became know is now turning to a depression becuase individuals, businesses and banks are deleveraging (getting rid of debt) as the market does not know how many people have have taken on this prudent approach, (ie where the bottom is) Obviuously I am not blaming this practice for the calamity we find ourselves, but we should have taken these steps over a much longer time say 3 years rather than this short sharp shock that many will not recover from.
What odds are there for a General Election for next year? I'm going to put 20% of my weekly pay on, 20% being the cut I accepted last month.[/quote]
Chopper, Labour (Gilmore) calling for one now rte.ie. It ain't far away. Trouble is I don't think anyone inside the Doyle (as spelt on BBC subtitles once) can get us out of this. Get rid of Coughlan and we'd be going somewhere before any election imo.
dahamsta
11/01/2009, 11:22 PM
You're not reading my posts Fr Damo. I've never once argued against credit, you've assumed I have. I have no idea how or why. How many times do I need to stress the word "new"?
adam
Fr Damo
12/01/2009, 8:37 AM
Have read your posts alright (idocy, new car, cash only) but I'm sorry if I can't differentate between new or 2nd user, borrowed money or bought from cash. The nett result is still the same, money lost. Individules have to make the purchase that best suits them out of the four components above.
I simply asked you to qualify the statement "if you can't afford to pay cash for it then it's just idiocy", I am satisfied we have a difference of opinion.
As well as the status thing,I think a lot of people don't want the bother of things going wrong/replacing parts etc thats involved with owning an older car and are willing to pay a premium.
I think for a lot of people it is the second part - the road side, 3 year warranty etc (depending on manufacturer). Also, they tend to get a better trade in, and in these times accepted as a trade in! Peace of mind is something people will pay for. We got a nearly new last year though, and we get what's left of the warranty etc, at the discounted price.
The biggest depreciation in the first 3 years. Bigger cars will lose half their value. I think many people replace after a few years as it is a know cost i.e. the gap between trade in & new car will be the same every 3 years. That said replacing a car every year is insane.
Anecdotally dealers are not even accepting trade ins from regular customers & will only do a deal with have someone already lined up for the traded car.
dahamsta
12/01/2009, 5:56 PM
I'll be buying 2nd hand luxobarges exclusively when I'm done with the cost-saving van, except perhaps for a little male menopause coupe at some point. A €100k luxobarge loses €10k a year in depreciation, so you can get a 10yo one for about 10k. The running costs are high but they're generally well serviced by main dealers, they go forever, they don't lose any more value, and they're essentially disposable in the unlikely even that anything big goes wrong.
Good old Maurice (http://verbo.se/van-running-on-quad-zeons/) is still serving me well though! Who need a saloon when the wife's got one?
adam
2009 first 10 day figures at down 70%! I wonder what numbers the Dept projected for their tax revenues.
Fr Damo
13/01/2009, 7:56 AM
Was on my travels yesterday and saw two more 09s in Laois, both Audi A4s, one was 262 the other was 360 something. Pete, I agree, knowing this Government they budgeted on last years figures minus 20% or somthing. Interestingly last Jan was up on Jan 07 and we were already 5 months into the crunch and many had forecast the "R" word (we were already in it probably) coming. I guess some of those cars were pre odered in Oct Nov as cocky salesmen had consumers under pressure to pull the trigger due to long lead times from the car factory. That's only 12 months ago folks, 12-16 weeks for a car, Colour, Model, Spec of your choice. I called on a Truck Body Builder yesterday, closed until 2nd of Feb. I aslo called on a County Council Machinery Yard, The engineer in charge has no money for new plant and hasn't the funds to take on the two apprentice mechanics who finish in March. He is sending his 6 drivers out today to clean ivy off bridges, there normal work would be road maintance but the budgets for 09 have not come through yet.
I believe January 2008 was a record month which will make this years look even worse than normal.
Germans introducing a E2,500 scrappage scheme for 9 year old cars but that is more about their car manufacturing industry than retail car market. I can see similar scheme here again.
pineapple stu
14/01/2009, 10:19 AM
January 2008 was a record bad month. Half of orders were cancelled due to the VT changes. 2008 in Dublin only got up to 75000 or so, which was well down on previous years (got up to 110000 in 2000, for example).
Another thing to note is that motor dealers get stung twice if they make a loss - once on the loss, and once having to pay the VAT on the loss. Ridiculous system which means the government are fleecing the industry twice.
Fr Damo
14/01/2009, 10:36 AM
[quote=pineapple stu;1086229]January 2008 was a record bad month. Half of orders were cancelled due to the VT changes. 2008 in Dublin only got up to 75000 or so, which was well down on previous years (got up to 110000 in 2000, for example).
Not according to the SIMI website who said sales were up month on month by 3.91%
http://www.simi.ie/admin/files/StatsPressRel2008.xls.
Commercial vehicles were down 15% roughly and I remember reporting this to my UK superiors at a meeting in Feb who, instantly replied your in recession so! We know car sales have collapsed for Jan09, I am looking forward to the figueres for light trucks. Councils and Plant hire companies are generally the main takers and they have a pot to p*** in at the moment.
The german's like the brits are throwing good money after bad if you ask me. The Brits are giving a grant to employers who take on staff. Cannot see how this will work. What I will say is at least it is something, our lot are shelving some Dublin bus staff and tip toeing around Junior Ministers.
pineapple stu
14/01/2009, 11:51 AM
Interesting. Knew there was a real fall off from Feb to June; didn't realise January was better than 07. Guess it didn't feel that way knowing what was coming!
Fr Damo
14/01/2009, 1:27 PM
Look back at the last couple of months of 2008 (all running 50/60% down) and factor in the results already announced of 70% reduction in new registrations. Based on last jan's 45000 cars and if the trend continues means that about 18500 to 19500 new cars will be registered this Jan, and I'd bet we just about scrape 60000 vehicles for the year. I'd imagine this is 1980s stuff?? I'm going for a few this evening!
Major overhaul needed and fast, husband of a friend, Mechanic, given his cards last friday.
Look at bringing Vat back to 12.5% for services, and I know it'll make a pigs ear of current stock but VRT is an illegal tax that should be abolished, especially when VAT is charged on it also. These are the very reasons Mickey Dell and others are pulling out.... Irish wages are high to cover the costs of indirect taxation!
pineapple stu
14/01/2009, 3:12 PM
1987 was the first year of the new registrations, and we got to about 87 D 27000 that year. That was up to about 50000 by the early 90s. Also remember that Feb to June last year saw a much sharper tail off than normal; lots of orders got postponed to July 08, then postponed to Jan 09, then postponed altogether, so last year's figures are kind of skewed. I'd say Dublin will get 50000-60000. Still way down on previous years though. Usually hit 10000 in Dublin in January; barely up to 3000 at the moment.
On a new car bought and registered in Ireland, you don't pay VAT on VRT. Don't know about imports.
Irish wages are high because we want lots of money to spend.
Fr Damo
14/01/2009, 4:11 PM
I know you are using the D reg as a reference point as it's what you have a feel for but I still think we'll be doing well to pass 60000 cars nationally. Hope I am wrong but...
On the VRT, I understand and will accept correction but isn't VRT is added to the price of the car once landed in the ROI. (Car makers actually sell the car less to the national importer in Ireland than they would say in Engerland. This is to facilitate the addition of VRT.) So a WV GOLF arrives in the port of Cork at say 15k without vat as it is an import. The Importer sells this to a garage and in this transaction VRT is added. Lets say 4k. Then the importer sells to the garage with a margin so say 18k plus VRT of 4K = 22k and then add vat of 21.5% = 26,730.
This means revenue gain 11,730 in the transaction to this point, more vat to be added when sold and then if the guy makes a profit, tax them (albeit at a low rate).
If there was no VRT the vat element would be 21.5% of 18k = 3870
pineapple stu
14/01/2009, 4:17 PM
Don't think so. VRT is, as far as I'm aware, paid when the car is registered, not imported necessarily (hence Vehicle Registration Tax). If you as a customer buy a car for, say, E20k basic, VAT is 21½% of the basic, and then VRT is added on next. There may be VRT on the VAT (don't think so, but not 100% sure which way VRT gets calculated), but not the other way around. And again, private imports may be different, and I think there are some circumstances where you pay VAT on the VRT. But in the main, it doesn't happen.
chopper harris
14/01/2009, 4:36 PM
Stu is right to a point, VRT is only calculated when the car is sold and registered, but it is the base price plus VRT and then Vat hence when the vat went up 1/2% so did VRT! Brother is Accountant with a main dealer who sells French Cars.
Irish cars are obviously expensive due to VRT but IMO Irish dealers still look to make too much profit on used cars.
Looking at one car in particular which costs has list price new about 34k in ROI & 19k sterling in UK. Irish dealers list a one year car at 15% below new price whereas UK dealers list at 30% below new price. This means can buy 1 year old UK car at 50% the price of new ROI car. SIMI can't complain either as loads of their members are importing also. As I mentioned above there is large difference in pre tax prices between ROI & UK.
I think I have now seen three 09 reg.
pineapple stu
15/01/2009, 4:10 PM
Very difficult, and in a way unfair, to compare Irish and English used car prices. In England, once a car is sold to a private party, there's never any VAT on the car again. In Ireland, there's VAT charged every time it's traded in and re-sold. So, for example, take a E25k car in Ireland and England. After one year, it's valued at E18k nett of VAT. The Irish dealer has to sell it for E22k to make his E18k, while the English dealer can sell it for E18k and keep all the money.
KevB76
15/01/2009, 5:53 PM
Irish wages are high because we want lots of money to spend.
..because everything is so ****ing expensive :mad:
Saw another 09 reg today in Montpelier, Co.Clare (formerly famous for its topless barmaid).
Halfway through the month and thats only two 09's I've spotted.
Fr Damo
15/01/2009, 6:29 PM
Very difficult, and in a way unfair, to compare Irish and English used car prices. In England, once a car is sold to a private party, there's never any VAT on the car again. In Ireland, there's VAT charged every time it's traded in and re-sold. So, for example, take a E25k car in Ireland and England. After one year, it's valued at E18k nett of VAT. The Irish dealer has to sell it for E22k to make his E18k, while the English dealer can sell it for E18k and keep all the money.
Didn't know that, That would explain a fair portion of the differential alight. 09 Mazda 3 today taking it to 4 for the year I think.
We have 6 marques on sale where I come from, one dealer has the three german makes and normally you'd see cars all over town by this stage.
Fr Damo
20/01/2009, 11:18 AM
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0120/cars.html
60% down in Novemebr and 49% down in December. Can't wait for Jan 09 Figures.
pineapple stu
20/01/2009, 11:33 AM
On the side bar there that October sales were down 50%, while European sales were down only 25%.
One BMW dealer in Dublin now importing UK used cars so that should end the complaints about people importing them privately. You can see them advertised with UK plates on their site. I presume they sold their Irish stock if importing more cars.
It should be remembered that Jan 08 sales were the highest for any month on records.
Slightly over 4000 D registrations so far according to here (http://www.cartell.ie/). That would include cars registered but sitting in dealer showrooms but I suppose that is the same every year.
pineapple stu
20/01/2009, 2:40 PM
Main dealers in Dublin (one BMW dealer) now importing UK used cars so that should end the complaints about people importing them privately.
Sure I told you that ages ago. ;)
Not sure how one BMW dealer equates to "main dealers" though?
Also, don't forget the 4000 09-Ds includes demos. Presumably, there wouldn't have been a huge drop in the number of demos dealerships have had to register, making the drop in actual sales even larger.
Sure I told you that ages ago. ;)
I only listen to what I want ;)
Not sure how one BMW dealer equates to "main dealers" though?
True. edited.
Also, don't forget the 4000 09-Ds includes demos. Presumably, there wouldn't have been a huge drop in the number of demos dealerships have had to register, making the drop in actual sales even larger.
[/QUOTE]
True about demos but I suppose more cars might have pre registered in January as busy time but not sold until February? Either way massive drop on the cards this year.
Very difficult, and in a way unfair, to compare Irish and English used car prices. In England, once a car is sold to a private party, there's never any VAT on the car again. In Ireland, there's VAT charged every time it's traded in and re-sold. So, for example, take a E25k car in Ireland and England. After one year, it's valued at E18k nett of VAT. The Irish dealer has to sell it for E22k to make his E18k, while the English dealer can sell it for E18k and keep all the money.
The used car I bought recently in the UK cost me £7,500. The invoice I received from the dealer showed Net Price of £6,500 and then the VAT at 15%.
chopper harris
23/01/2009, 2:14 PM
I hear main are dealers are getting very worried. The longer people hang onto cars the less likley they are to go back yo a main dealer for the servicing as they will be out of warrenty. The workshops will therefore not be getting main dealer rates for labour and huge margins on OE parts.
The sole trader or family business selling used cars could be one of the growth ares in this recession. Threats V Opportunities.
pineapple stu
23/01/2009, 2:41 PM
The used car I bought recently in the UK cost me £7,500. The invoice I received from the dealer showed Net Price of £6,500 and then the VAT at 15%.
Was it under 12000 miles or six months? They're the only criteria that need to be met, AFAIK, aside from being in personal (as opposed to business) ownership throughout.
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