Rugby Union 2009

[Mr A]

Quite a display there from Ulster, absolutely battered Munster.

For Ireland it's encouraging that Ian Humphreys really looked the part and could be the answer to our lack of depth in the out half department.

[Youths4Ever]

Quite a display there from Ulster, absolutely battered Munster.

For Ireland it's encouraging that Ian Humphreys really looked the part and could be the answer to our lack of depth in the out half department.

seen Humphreys a few times still a bit too hit and miss IMO needs to finds some more consistency. The kicker for Connacht is developing nicely as well.

[brianw82]

The kicker for Connacht is developing nicely as well.

He has this routine of doing 6 half-squats before every kick. It really was quite amusing to watch, the crowd quietly counting away.

Will Darren Cave get a chance in the squad?

[pete]

Ulster were well worth their win. That said the officials missed a blatant forward pass for the first try.

Hurley was at least a few yards off the pace. If he continues like this won;t even be in the Munster squad next season. Williams does not look like a modern no.8 as is closer to prop in size. Munsters pass it wide tactics are badly flawed. Should have used the forwards around the fringes a lot more.

[joeSoap]

I'm at a loss for reasons for Munsters last two performances. For years now, Munster won games they shouldn't have by having their pack controlling the pace of the game, with O'Gara controlling position with tactical kicking. They would only strike when the odds were in their favour.

I know these ELV's favour running rugby, and have killed the maul, but for Christs sake why do they have to try and run practically every ball they get immediately? It is not working....plain and simple. Defences are wide to this now and Ulster proved the other night that it can be swatted very easily if you defend high up.

Hurley surely has played his last competitive game for Munster, as has Kieran Lewis. Williams at 8 isn't fit enough yet imo, and Leamy is proving to be a monumental loss. Back to basics against Sale I hope, or I fear its goodbye Heineken Cup.

Having said that, hats off to Ulster and Connacht on their performances. Matt Williams, loathe him as most do, is doing a great job there.

[Youths4Ever]

He has this routine of doing 6 half-squats before every kick. It really was quite amusing to watch, the crowd quietly counting away.

Will Darren Cave get a chance in the squad?

yeah the counting was funny in the RDS last week the announcer had to ask for quiet as everybody counting along with the squats :D

I can see Cave getting in the extended squad but maybe not in the match day one

[joeSoap]

I can see Cave getting in the extended squad but maybe not in the match day one True, but if you had to pick an Irish side on form at this particular moment, it would be a strange one;

Rob Kearney; Geordan Murphy, Keith Earls, Darren Cave, Tommy Bowe; Ian Humphreys, no scrum half cos none of them are in form; Marcus Horan, Rory Best, John Hayes; Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Steven Ferris, Sean O'Brien, David Wallace.

They are the form players....outlook not great , is it?

[OneRedArmy]

True, but if you had to pick an Irish side on form at this particular moment, it would be a strange one;

Rob Kearney; Geordan Murphy, Keith Earls, Darren Cave, Tommy Bowe; Ian Humphreys, no scrum half cos none of them are in form; Marcus Horan, Rory Best, John Hayes; Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Steven Ferris, Sean O'Brien, David Wallace.

They are the form players....outlook not great , is it?Mike Ross would definitely be in at prop.

[joeSoap]

He'd by my sub prop. Horan and Hayes are in great form at the moment. He's having some season though, fair play to him.

[OneRedArmy]

He'd by my sub prop. Horan and Hayes are in great form at the moment. He's having some season though, fair play to him.
I couldn't disagree much with the rest of your form XV, but I'm quite excited by it.

We certainly need to see some new players blooded, although a home game against France is probably not the right time.

[Youths4Ever]

I couldn't disagree much with the rest of your form XV, but I'm quite excited by it.

We certainly need to see some new players blooded, although a home game against France is probably not the right time.

probably not right time but if team picked on form highly unlikely I know but would be interesting. Hopefully some players will get in though

[hula4]

True, but if you had to pick an Irish side on form at this particular moment, it would be a strange one;

Rob Kearney; Geordan Murphy, Keith Earls, Darren Cave, Tommy Bowe; Ian Humphreys, no scrum half cos none of them are in form; Marcus Horan, Rory Best, John Hayes; Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell; Steven Ferris, Sean O'Brien, David Wallace.

They are the form players....outlook not great , is it?

looked like a very good return to form for tomas o leary tonight, leamy looked sharp as well for the 55 mins he was on.

[Youths4Ever]

looked like a very good return to form for tomas o leary tonight, leamy looked sharp as well for the 55 mins he was on.

o leary looked good last night.

Are Munster really in trouble at no10 or is it just mind games on their part?
could be interesting how then line out if o'gara if out or not fully fit to play a full game do u start or finish with him on pitch?

[hula4]

i dont think they are in trouble, from what i have heard they are very confident o gara will make it, warwick is 50/50 id say, i wouldnt be worried about the concussion too much, but if his eye isnt right its not something that can or should be risked.

afaik manning is def out and doyle isnt eligible but i would be optimistic about o gara and warwick

[Youths4Ever]

i dont think they are in trouble, from what i have heard they are very confident o gara will make it, warwick is 50/50 id say, i wouldnt be worried about the concussion too much, but if his eye isnt right its not something that can or should be risked.

afaik manning is def out and doyle isnt eligible but i would be optimistic about o gara and warwick

There was a rule in rugby that if a player got concussion then where automatically out for 3-4 weeks (cant remember exact length of time) unless then have changed this rule automatically rules out Warwick.
IMO O'Gara will play but may not be up to pace for 80 mins if game played at high pace and opposition will target him if then think not 100% fit.

[hula4]

that used to be the case but afaik once he is certified ok by a neuroligist or whatever they are called then he is ok to play, if he is fit of course.

but the rule that it was an automatic 3 weeks is gone

[pete]

I know if has probably been mentioned in the 2008 thread but the ELVs are to put it bluntly sh*te. Winning tactic now are to kick the ball long & chase opponents so they get penalised for holding at the breakdown. Possession of the ball especially in your own half will eventually be penalised for holding on.

[hula4]

I know if has probably been mentioned in the 2008 thread but the ELVs are to put it bluntly sh*te. Winning tactic now are to kick the ball long & chase opponents so they get penalised for holding at the breakdown. Possession of the ball especially in your own half will eventually be penalised for holding on.

wouldnt dismiss them all, there has been little change to the refereeing of the breakdown, just how the rules are being enforced, however i dont like the unlimited numbers in the lineouts, and the ability to pull down the maul.

the quick lineouts are good though, and think the increased involvement of the tmo and touchjudges are the way forward, as is the new offside line at the scrum

not too sure about the increased kicking though, the idea behind not being able to pass back in to the 22 is good in theory but it seems to be leading to a lot of aimless punting up and downfield

[Youths4Ever]

I know if has probably been mentioned in the 2008 thread but the ELVs are to put it bluntly sh*te. Winning tactic now are to kick the ball long & chase opponents so they get penalised for holding at the breakdown. Possession of the ball especially in your own half will eventually be penalised for holding on.

then are ruining rugby brought in to aid attacking rugby but all then have done is ruin it to many penalties for off the feet etc and way to much kicking in the game teams almost afraid to run the ball

[pete]

I suppose the point I was trying to make was possession is bad.

Touch Judges in rugby seem to do very little. Even for obvious tries they never make a call & will just let ref ask TMO. Often touch judges are also too far behind the play to see touch down...

[OneRedArmy]

The ELVs were trialled in a Stellensbosch University league for a whole season before they were introduced, gradually, at higher levels.

From memory the aimless kicking only became a feature when introduced to professional rugby.

Therefore I'd say it has a lot to do with negative tactics and risk aversity by coaches.

Also, its unfair to say the ELVs in totality aren't working. The rules around collapsing the maul, lineout and replacing penalties with free kicks are working extremely well and speeding the game up.

Before the ELVs England (and Ireland too) had turned the game into a copy of American football, by slowing it down to a crawl and running pre-planned plays based off lineout and maul at almost every phase. The ELVs were designed to introduce a bit more spontaneity and pace back into the game and ensure the ball is in play more.

Change was definitely needed. I'd wait a while before we write the ELVs off.

[Bald Student]

The excessive kicking really started in the last world cup when Argentina did well from it. It's become more common now because teams aren't allowed to seal off their own ball in the ruck any more so holding possession in your own half is more dangerous. That's not really one of the ELVs but the pre-existing law being enforced as it's written.

[joeSoap]

The ELV's will be passed in May (or at least the majority of them) because 5 of the top 8 Nations (NZ, Aus, SA, Arg and Eng) are all supportive of them and will vote them in. The single biggest one for me that I hate is the abolishing of the rolling maul. It was a great skill to perfect, and by allowing teams to bring it down, you are taking one of the great spectacles from the game. Also, penalising players for not immediately releasing sounds great in theory, but in fact merely leads to a slower game as a result of the ensuing stoppages.

[paudie]

Surprise win for Glasgow away to Toulouse today. Gives Bath a chance of topping the group.
Good win for Ulster at home to Harlequins as well

[OneRedArmy]

The ELV's will be passed in May (or at least the majority of them) because 5 of the top 8 Nations (NZ, Aus, SA, Arg and Eng) are all supportive of them and will vote them in. The single biggest one for me that I hate is the abolishing of the rolling maul. It was a great skill to perfect, and by allowing teams to bring it down, you are taking one of the great spectacles from the game. Also, penalising players for not immediately releasing sounds great in theory, but in fact merely leads to a slower game as a result of the ensuing stoppages.Completely disagree. Ever since they permitted lifting in the lineouts and made it easier to take your own ball, the catch and drive was over-used and once you got a maul started it was almost impossible to stop legally. This lead to ridiculous situations in the last few seasons were the defending team withdrew from the maul, leaving the attacking side technically offside.

[Real ale Madrid]

Completely disagree. Ever since they permitted lifting in the lineouts and made it easier to take your own ball, the catch and drive was over-used and once you got a maul started it was almost impossible to stop legally. This lead to ridiculous situations in the last few seasons were the defending team withdrew from the maul, leaving the attacking side technically offside.

One your first point if you commit the numbers to the maul then then you should be able to stop it legally. I've seen plenty mauls held up pre ELV's. Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?

I don't really know what exactly the ELV's have greatly done for the game of rugby? They could have been phased in a little better as well - lots of penalties over the weekend.

[hula4]

One your first point if you commit the numbers to the maul then then you should be able to stop it legally. I've seen plenty mauls held up pre ELV's. Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?

I don't really know what exactly the ELV's have greatly done for the game of rugby? They could have been phased in a little better as well - lots of penalties over the weekend.

i think the real problem at the moment is the refereeing at the breakdown which strictly speaking isnt an elv. they are merely enforcing the existing laws more forcefully at the breakdown in relation to staying on your feet and releasing the ball which leads imo to the increased kicking as teams are trying to avoid giving away penalties in their own half. thats my take on it anyway

[Schumi]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the defending team withdrew from the maul? - can you give an example - i've never seen this?Before the ELVs came in, some teams would take all their players out of a maul when the other team had the ball. This meant that attacking players in the maul in front of the ball were offside, similar to crossing, as they weren't bound to any defenders.

[OneRedArmy]

Only one or two teams perfect the maul, Munster were the only team i saw consistantly use the rolling maul, so i have disagree with you there.The whole of the English Premiership and the English and Irish international team also over-used the rolling maul over the last 7 years.

Schumi explained my other point perfectly.

[pete]

Glasgow away win at Toulouse must be biggest shock in HC group stages for years?

Ulster good value for their win even if they were kind of hanging on a bit before breakaway try.

Did not fancy Munster before Friday game but they overpowered Sale who made too many mistakes. I think a win (possibly no need for bonus point) could get them a home tie in the quarter final. With Tipoki coming back & Leamy getting fitter they are starting to look strong again.

Leinster have it in their own hands but home quarter final seems unlikely. Only saw a little bit of the game but they still don't convince.

[Real ale Madrid]

The whole of the English Premiership and the English and Irish international team also over-used the rolling maul over the last 7 years.

Schumi explained my other point perfectly.

Just because something is over used by certian teams doesn't make it wrong. You could argue its effectiveness.

I understand now how a team can get out of the way. But i watch a lot of rugby and can honestly say i never saw a team do that. Wouldn't a maul have to start behind a tackle tho. I mean a team would have to make a conscious effort to say "un-bind" from the initial tackle - which i would have thought very difficult?

[osarusan]

I understand now how a team can get out of the way. But i watch a lot of rugby and can honestly say i never saw a team do that. Wouldn't a maul have to start behind a tackle tho. I mean a team would have to make a conscious effort to say "un-bind" from the initial tackle - which i would have thought very difficult?

It happens quite a lot in Super 14 rugby, though not as much last season. It happened mainly from lineouts - there being an assumption that the team who doesn't get the ball will immediately attack the maul, but the tactic was to leave a metre or so of space between attacking team and defending team, so if the ball is brought to the back of the pack, the forwards will be offside.

[Bald Student]

One think I noticed in the Wasps-Leinster game was how ineffective both teams' kicking game was. Kicking the ball long and depending on the opposition to make a mistake didn't work against good wings and full backs. I think both teams dropped one each and it gave me a bit of hope that the excess kicking might sort itself out if teams get better at fielding.

[endabob1]

It happens quite a lot in Super 14 rugby, though not as much last season. It happened mainly from lineouts - there being an assumption that the team who doesn't get the ball will immediately attack the maul, but the tactic was to leave a metre or so of space between attacking team and defending team, so if the ball is brought to the back of the pack, the forwards will be offside.

The Boks nailed Argentina with that precise tactic in the WC semi, The Pumas kick & Maul game was working well against everyone else but the Boks must have got 3 or 4 penalties using that precise move. I couldn’t understand why more teams didn’t do it against them, as you say it was Super 14 teams that developed it so they were used to doing it/being the victims of it.

[shakermaker1982]

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

[hula4]

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

tomorrow i think

[Bald Student]

Wales drop Peel?! Shocked at that announcement. The move to Sale seems to have cost him. Anybody know when Ireland name their squad for the 6N?

When Gatland took the job he said he wouldn't pick foreign based players.

[joeSoap]

Gatland says a lot of things. I think that this is purely down to form Peel has only started 9 times out of 19 for Sale, and clearly would be off the pace for 6 Nations. If Cooper doesn't work out as back up to Phillips then Peel will be back in like a shot.

[Schumi]

Squad announced. No Humphreys! :confused:

Backs:
Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
Darren Cave (Ulster)*
Gordon D’Arcy (Leinster)
Girvan Dempsey (Leinster)
Ian Dowling (Munster)*
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster)
Shane Horgan (Leinster)
Robert Kearney (Leinster)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Munster)
Tomas O'Leary (Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Wasps)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster)*
Peter Stringer (Munster)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ulster)

Forwards:
Rory Best (Ulster)
Ryan Caldwell (Ulster)*
Bob Casey (London Irish)
Tom Court (Ulster)*
Stephen Ferris (Ulster)
Jerry Flannery (Munster)
John Hayes (Munster)
Cian Healy (Leinster)*
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster)
Marcus Horan (Munster)
Bernard Jackman (Leinster)
Shane Jennings (Leinster)
Denis Leamy (Munster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster)
Paul O'Connell (Munster)
Mick O'Driscoll (Munster)
Malcolm O’Kelly (Leinster)
Alan Quinlan (Munster)
Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
Donnacha Ryan (Munster)
David Wallace (Munster)

[Youths4Ever]

Squad announced. No Humphreys! :confused:

not really a big shock he is the A selection. Dates of selection for first six nations and the A game here
ww.irishrugby.ie/283_15771.php (http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_15771.php)

[hula4]

Squad announced. No Humphreys! :confused:

Backs:
Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
Darren Cave (Ulster)*
Gordon D’Arcy (Leinster)
Girvan Dempsey (Leinster)
Ian Dowling (Munster)*
Keith Earls (Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Leinster)
Shane Horgan (Leinster)
Robert Kearney (Leinster)
Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
Brian O'Driscoll (Leinster)
Ronan O'Gara (Munster)
Tomas O'Leary (Munster)
Eoin Reddan (Wasps)
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster)*
Peter Stringer (Munster)
Andrew Trimble (Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ulster)

Forwards:
Rory Best (Ulster)
Ryan Caldwell (Ulster)*
Bob Casey (London Irish)
Tom Court (Ulster)*
Stephen Ferris (Ulster)
Jerry Flannery (Munster)
John Hayes (Munster)
Cian Healy (Leinster)*
Jamie Heaslip (Leinster)
Marcus Horan (Munster)
Bernard Jackman (Leinster)
Shane Jennings (Leinster)
Denis Leamy (Munster)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster)
Paul O'Connell (Munster)
Mick O'Driscoll (Munster)
Malcolm O’Kelly (Leinster)
Alan Quinlan (Munster)
Mike Ross (Harlequins)*
Donnacha Ryan (Munster)
David Wallace (Munster)

humphreys in the a squad who play on the friday before, i imagine he will start that game

[Aberdonian Stu]

Yes, the A squad is fairly small so I expect it to draw heavily on players from the main squad that don't make the matchday team.

[pete]

Anyone else missing?

[Youths4Ever]

Anyone else missing?

anyone not considered through injury etc listed here
http://www.irishrugby.ie/283_15771.php along with those on A panel

[hula4]

there is a couple that i would have thought would have been included in the a panel at least, the likes of niall ronan and barry murphy from munster, ian keatly from connacht and pollock from ulster but i think the latter 2 may be held back for the upcoming 7s world cup

[brianw82]

Sexton ahead of Humphreys is a bit of a joke, to be honest. Currently 3rd choice out-half with Leinster.

[Bald Student]

We can't read much into a squad of 40, it's about half the professional rugby players in the country. The only other name I'd have is the winger from Leicester.

[swano]

Sexton ahead of Humphreys is a bit of a joke, to be honest. Currently 3rd choice out-half with Leinster.

Hard for Sexton as he has to contend with Nacewa and Contepomi while Humphreys essentially has no competition. I think Sexton has more potential than Humphreys and the squad selection would suggest Kidney thinks likewise, especially if he has Paddy Wallace ahead of Humphreys for the 10 position.

[endabob1]

there is a couple that i would have thought would have been included in the a panel at least, the likes of niall ronan and barry murphy from munster, ian keatly from connacht and pollock from ulster but i think the latter 2 may be held back for the upcoming 7s world cup

Do we have a 7's side, we haven't been in the IRB 7's tournaments so far

[hula4]

Do we have a 7's side, we haven't been in the IRB 7's tournaments so far

ya i thought the same, but i think i read it somewhere that thats why pollock and a few others may not have been included.

maybe they are starting one up