Israel

[Jeebus]

Am i alone in thinking this is the biggest joke of a state/country out there?? Palastine went from being a country to what it is today because the hierarchy of the jews told people to go and claim this land that they didnt own as theirs.

I'll probably get dogs abuse but just look at this map of what was and what is now
http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-palestine_map.jpg

The higher you build your barriers, the taller i become....

[SkStu]

opening a huge can of worms with this one Jeebus. Suffice to say if i expressed the extent of my dissatisfaction with the actions of and this particular reaction from Israel, i would be lazily accused of being anti-semite and probably barred from the site.

[oscar]

Isreal = 51st state

[jebus]

Hard to talk about as anytime someone queries Israel's policies they are deemed anti-semite, which is just garbage because I have no problem with Jews, just the nation of Israel.

I could go into a rant but basically I view Israel as something akin to the Nazis, and I've argued that their policies will lead to a rise in anti-semitic feeling once again, in fact I think it already has to a certain degree. Jewish jokes seem to be on the rise, I've heard quite a few people say that they don't view the Holocaust in the same light because they now realise Israel would do the exact same thing if given the chance, and in general I think there is a growing feeling of distrust for Jews again.

I don't agree with painting all Jews with the Israel brush, and I certainly don't think the horrors of the Holocaust are lessened because the Israeli government are a bunch of murderers, but I can see why people would think that. Ideal world they should never have been put back in there, even more idyllic world would be America and the western world telling them that Israel as a state has failed and they'll have to pack up and leave

[Lionel Ritchie]

Well we'll not get far with discussing the bigger picture ...causality, naissance of the state etc... particularly if emotive terms like 'failed state' and comparisons with the nazis are being used.

But the behaviour of the Israeli authorities, military and particularly the administration is entirely unacceptable and unmeasured. This wife-beater logic that Israel applies when striking out at the Palestinians is ridiculous.
Be it in Israel, Northern Ireland, the USA or anwhere else -when you slash a path through the innocent to get at the guilty you become the tyrant your enemies claim you are.

[BohsPartisan]

Well we'll not get far with discussing the bigger picture ...causality, naissance of the state etc... particularly if emotive terms like 'failed state' and comparisons with the nazis are being used.



But why not compare them with the Nazis? The Zionist regime is a far right, nationalist, racist regime that is constantly annexing surrounding territories, using torture and terror against its opponents and categorising them as lesser people. Sound familiar?

[Lionel Ritchie]

But why not compare them with the Nazis? The Zionist regime is a far right, nationalist, racist regime that is constantly annexing surrounding territories, using torture and terror against its opponents and categorising them as lesser people. Sound familiar?

There's an amount of that I don't contest. But where does it leave you in terms of stopping the death-toll from rising?

I think we'd agree that birthrights and land inheritence based on old testament folk tales is not a sound basis for the distribution of property or wealth ...but here we are. Taking back the blank check that the international Jewish community was written in the wake of the horrors put upon it during WW2 isn't practical. Israel is here in some shape or form to stay and some form of equitable solution is going to have to be worked out.

[Docboy]

when you slash a path through the innocent to get at the guilty you become the tyrant your enemies claim you are.

Very well put. It always amazes me that a group of people who went through what they went through during WW2 can act so callously to fellow human beings. Right-wing policies will come undone in the end.

[Red&White Rover]

Very well put. It always amazes me that a group of people who went through what they went through during WW2 can act so callously to fellow human beings. Right-wing policies will come undone in the end.

That's what I find disgustingly ironic. They're trying to effectively get rid of the Palestinian state atm.

I just seen a news report, from a Palestinian cameraman on Channel 4 news. Footage after his family's home, a safe-house for women and children, was spefically targeted by Israel. His 12 year old brother and a friend were told to play on the roof so as to be outside and be somewhat safe.

Israel drone flew overhead and hit the house. Footage of just after the incident and as the doctors try in vain to save him.

Just shocking.

[dahamsta]

To be fair lads, and this is from someone that generally supports the Palestinian side and abhors the actions of the decision makers in Israel, it would seem a few of the new Hamas rockets have been hitting civilian targets too; one during the week hit a school. You could argue that they're not targeted that way on purpose, but if they can't target them properly then they shouldn't be using them.

That being said, the irony of the Israeli actions has always befuddled me, for the reasons already pointed out. It'll come full circle if they're not careful.

adam

[RonnieB]

I was watching Alaqsa on Arabsat earlier, the hamas channel. Seriously awful images coming across on it, a child with his head opened and what was left of his brains hanging out, truely horrifying stuff. I know it is their channel and they show this for their means as well.

I would be along the same lines as Dahamsta there, Hamas's rockets have been causing equal fear among Isreali civillians for a long time now as well. It will not end well for either side..

[pete]

I don't believe Israel deliberately target civilians but the same cannot be said of Hamas. That said I think Israel would target terrorist offices even if they using a school as a shield.

IMO it is too easy to take the Palestinian side. Living in Dublin if say terrorists were lobbing rockets in from Meath I would want my armed soldiers to go after them. Hamas are the political leaders in Gaza so I would guess Israel are able to excuse their invasion on those lines.

Israel are using the same tactics they used in South Lebanon against Hezbollah which were probably fairly successful from their point of view.

[TheBoss]

In my view Israel has every right to protect their own citizens, they were attacked on many occasions and yet no told Hamas to stop doing it and once Israel do it, it is wrong it seems, they are defending their country from attacks, whats wrong with that ?

In response to the first post, Israel was there before Palestine, the Romans called the state of Judea, Palestine. They were a Jewish nation back then, but when the Ottomans took over, the Islamic religion was forced in the area. In theory, they are lucky they got the land they have at the moment.

[NeilMcD]

As Tommy Tiernan says, I applied for planning permission in the Old Testament, its only coming through now.

[Red&White Rover]

In response to the first post, Israel was there before Palestine, the Romans called the state of Judea, Palestine. They were a Jewish nation back then, but when the Ottomans took over, the Islamic religion was forced in the area. In theory, they are lucky they got the land they have at the moment.

By that reckoning, the Scandinavians can start reclaiming all the land once under control by the Vikings?

Same difference. Thousand(s of) years ago the world was a completely different place...We've moved on.

Why should Israel claim right to a land that was their's centuries ago?

I agree it is easy to side with Palestine when living in Ireland, but I just find the creation and expansion of the Israeli state that bit unfair on the Palestinians and Arabs who lived there before...

But anyway, back to the here and now...

[Lim till i die]

Hard to talk about as anytime someone queries Israel's policies they are deemed anti-semite

My old "The Palestinians are a semitic people too" spiel normally works on that. ;)


I could go into a rant but basically I view Israel as something akin to the Nazis, and I've argued that their policies will lead to a rise in anti-semitic feeling once again, in fact I think it already has to a certain degree.

Of course its led to a rise in anti-jew feeling.

Turn on the news man!!


I don't agree with painting all Jews with the Israel brush,

That is fairly mealy mouthed though man.

By and large (and one must generalise to some extent when dealing with large groups of people) the Jews, as a race, have an awful lot to answer for in the Middle East.

Its not just Muslim extremism that's on the rise you know


and I certainly don't think the horrors of the Holocaust

People need to stop talking about the Holocaust.

I was a long time ago and I don't see why the world owes Judaism a damn thing as a result of it to be honest.

What about 20 million Russians??

Filthy Reds to a man, woman and child...............


I don't believe Israel deliberately target civilians but the same cannot be said of Hamas.


Nonsense.

They are using phosphurus shells now the twisted scum.


IMO it is too easy to take the Palestinian side.

Imagine that.

It being easy to reach the only morally sensible conclusion.


Living in Dublin if say terrorists were lobbing rockets in from Meath I would want my armed soldiers to go after them. Hamas are the political leaders in Gaza so I would guess Israel are able to excuse their invasion on those lines.

What an absolute nonsense piece of spin.

Last time I checked Dublin hadn't crammed millions of people into Meath so Dublin could steal their land and then spend the next few decades starving and maiming said people within Meath.

If Dublin were to do this then yes, you probably could expect a few rockets whizzing by your schoolyard, and TS to be honest.

You'll notice I didn't even touch on the relative strength of the "retaliation" compared to the "crime"

BTW pete are Hamas lawfully elected representatives or terrorists or both??

The term terrorist being subjective of course.


Israel are using the same tactics they used in South Lebanon against Hezbollah which were probably fairly successful from their point of view

As yes Israeli interference in Lebanon.

Success story after success story after success story.

And there was no civilians ever targeted there either...................


In my view Israel has every right to protect their own citizens, they were attacked on many occasions and yet no told Hamas to stop doing it and once Israel do it, it is wrong it seems, they are defending their country from attacks, whats wrong with that ?


No one told Hamas

Are you for real??


In response to the first post, Israel was there before Palestine, the Romans called the state of Judea, Palestine. They were a Jewish nation back then, but when the Ottomans took over, the Islamic religion was forced in the area. In theory, they are lucky they got the land they have at the moment

Ya but I mean before the Jews were there there was probably a load of camels, so maybe it's the camels land??

[endabob1]

I was talking to someone the other day about apartheid in South Africa and they said that the xhosa people (the largest black tribe in SA) had as little claim to the land as white people because they were effectively settlers too, 2000 the xhosa tribe drove the Koi-San people from the fertile lands of the cape, north to the deserts....
This is bascially the sh!te that gets put out in the name of justification of land "ownership", the same stories come out in Palestine, the same was trotted out by the provos in Northern Ireland

[NeilMcD]

The trick is to win your wars years ago when there was no international community and no moral backlash.

[pete]

The trick is to win your wars years ago when there was no international community and no moral backlash.

Israels leaders are probably old enough to remember the Six day War in 1967 which is possibly the real source of todays problems in the region although Israel is clearly the most powerful state now.

[razor]

IMO it is too easy to take the Palestinian side.Photos of dead children buried in rubble will do that to you.

There was a picture in the Echo on Wednesday night and i think the Examiner too of a little girl buried in rubble her head sticking out with cuts all over her face.
What do i tell my 5 year old when she asks what happened her?

[TheBoss]

For a start, I would not show it to her.

[razor]

For a start, I would not show it to her.I didn't, she was after seeing it before I got home from work.

[dahamsta]

I'd guess the point TheBoss was trying to make was that she shouldn't be seeing that sort of thing in the first place, unless you're ready and able to explain it. Keep the newspaper out of reach, turn the telly off if there's a risk, etc.

adam

[OneRedArmy]

What do i tell my 5 year old when she asks what happened her?Tell her the world is, on the whole, a much less dangerous place that it has ever been but the all pervasive nature of the media these days doesn't make it seem that way.

Neil McD hit the nail on the head a few posts above.

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way belittling the suffering that Israel is meting out at the minute (or indeed the suffering it has historically been on the end of).

More than any other conflict, the Middle East (for its not just about Israel/Palestine, it goes the whole way to Iran in one direction and Egypt in the other) seems absolutely intractable. There doesn't seem any common ground for negotiation. Very, very depressing stuff.

[razor]

I'd guess the point TheBoss was trying to make was that she shouldn't be seeing that sort of thing in the first place, unless you're ready and able to explain it. Keep the newspaper out of reach, turn the telly off if there's a risk, etc.Believe me I always do and 99 times out of 100 its grand but she saw it in passing in her Grannies house and being an inquisitive 5 year old was wondering what had happened.
I'm a model parent I swear ;)


Tell her the world is, on the whole, a much less dangerous place that it has ever been but the all pervasive nature of the media these days doesn't make it seem that way.Thats exactly what I did and she was quite happy with that.

[dahamsta]

Believe me I always do and 99 times out of 100 its grand but she saw it in passing in her Grannies house and being an inquisitive 5 year old was wondering what had happened.
I'm a model parent I swear ;)Probably better than me then!

[razor]

Probably better than me then!I do the best I can.

[Cymro]

Whilst carefully trying to avoid inadevertantly detonating the masses of metaphorical dynamite that always seems to be involved in any discussion with the word 'Israel' in it, I'd like to disagree with those who say that the Jews should not have a homeland or should be moved from where they are.

This does not mean I always condone the actions of the Israeli state, but it is quite clear that the situation is far from one-sided. Hamas (along with the leaders of many other nearby states, such as Iran) are at least as guilty for giving the Israelis reasons to constantly live in fear and thus be left with little choice other than to support their leaders or be bullied like the kid with the thick-framed glasses in the school playground.

I understand that some people may not agree with the reasons why the state of Israel was founded or the way in which its founding was effectively pushed through by foreign governments, but that was 50 years ago and if people like LimtilIdie say we should forget about, or at least move on from, the Holocaust, then surely we should all move on in this regard too, after all plenty of states have been founded in circumstances which are far worse than Israel's. It's time for everyone to accept that the Jews are there to stay and try and work out some kind of resolution. Sadly a few egos in high places will prevent this from happening, but political realities do not determine what is right or wrong in any given case.

[SkStu]

interesting article from BBC website. The disillusioned Israeli soldiers accounts of the "religious war" waged on Gaza and the murder of innocent civilians. Anyone else doubt that the IDF's promise to investigate will uncover much? :rolleyes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7952603.stm

[brianw82]

Religion poisons everything, again.

[shantykelly]

Religion poisons everything, again.

disagree. blaming religion, or orders, or circumstance is all too easy when it comes to violent disputes and actions. the problem is the choices that individuals make.

[Wangball]

Religion poisons everything, again.

I'd disagree with that, religion just add's an extra dimension to what is essentially a land dispute

[SkStu]

I'd disagree with that, religion just add's an extra dimension to what is essentially a land dispute

agreed, with one addition. War boils down to one of, or a combination of, any of the following elements:

Religion
Land
Economics

[Da Real Rover]

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
Israel Koenig, “The Koenig Memorandum” in 1980

“ [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.”
Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.”
Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, tells students at Bar Ilan University, From the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000