What ye think of this?

[daithi]

I know what I'd tell him.........

A FEW years ago a promising teenage striker emerged at an English Premier League club.

Kevin Gallen of Queens Park Rangers could play for Ireland or England and, as his two brothers had already worn green at under-age level, it seemed the die was already cast.

But Gallen was somehow persuaded to declare for England and was subsequently capped at Youth and U-21 level by the English leaving Merrion Square to regard him as one of the biggest losses to Irish football.

Now 28, and back at Loftus Road after short spells at Huddersfield Town and Barnsley, Gallen is still banging in the goals - albeit in Division 2 of the English League.

He was QPR's Player of the Year last season and scored last Saturday against Stockport County. He never made a full international appearance for England, and probably never will now, but his chances of playing for Ireland have now been resuscitated.

Last month, at a meeting in Doha, FIFA's Extraordinary Congress voted to amend the statutes on the eligibility of players to play international football.

Up to now the rule has been that if a player makes a competitive appearance for a country then he is stuck with that nation for the rest of his career.

Millwall midfielder Tim Cahill knows all about that rule. Although eligible to play for Australia and Ireland he has been unable to exercise either option because when he was 14 he played for Western Samoa in an U-20 international.

He had been visiting his grandmother and was wrongly told that playing in the game wouldn't affect his eligibility to play for Australia. He found himself in international limbo on discovering that the only country he could play for was Western Samoa and decided to fight.

His threat of legal action against FIFA finally forced the governing body to act and from January 1, Cahill will be free to play for Australia because he held an Australian passport at the time of his far reaching appearance for Western Samoa.

The new rule now is that as long as player hasn't played a competitive A international for a country, he can switch his allegiances provided he held citizenship of the other country at time of his international debut. So, if a player who holds British and Irish passports plays for England in a competitive under-age international, then he can declare for Ireland before his 21st birthday.

Any player who has already celebrated his 21st birthday, like Kevin Gallen, can also change as long as he held dual citizenship at the time of his first appearance for England or any other country.

Brian Kerr's battle to qualify for the 2006 World Cup in Germany has already started, but he recently admitted to working off a desperately small pool of players.

"We've got 53 players in the top two divisions in England who are near the first team at their clubs and 70 to 80 in the lower divisions," said Kerr.

He added: "It is difficult for us now to find players who were not born in Ireland, but might be able to play for us because the English FA have been very busy. They have very big squads at under-age level, as many as 30 in their squads at U-15 and 16 level. It's a big sweep. There are so many players with names that make you think they should be playing with us, but England have got to them first."

Currently playing in Division 2, Kevin Gallen may not be what Kerr is currently looking for as he bids to assemble a squad capable of reaching Germany.

But he is still an option for the Irish manager as this alteration to the previously unbendable eligibility rule gives his task of unearthing new players a new dimension.

It also means that Anglo-Irish kids at English clubs, who are being put under pressure daily to declare for England, can now hedge their bets by exercising their right to Irish citizenship because it could turn out to be their passport to the World Cup.

[tiktok]

the example of the guy playing for western samoa is a reason why this rule should have been looked at, but to be fair, Kevin Gallen????

He declared very publicly for England over Ireland (not mistakenly as with your other example), and now just because he never made it at senior level we should have another look at him, no bloody way, if we weren't good enough for him then, well he's not good enough for us now.

[Beavis]

At 18 or 19,your old enough to decide what country you want to play for (not 14 like Cahill was).Gallen thought his career would go better so picked England,so feck im if he wants to play for us now he's languishing in the Nationwide leagues.

[pbn]

I am English born of 2 Irish parents

It frustrates me when journalists say things like the "Anglo-Celts"should ""hedge their bets by exercising their right to Irish citizenship because it could turn out to be their passport to the World Cup""

It has nothing to do with hedging bets in most instances. Don't
they realise that us "plastics" WANT to play for Ireland and/or support the team. Do they 2nd gen players only declare for ireland to get to world cups? Do they think 2nd gen fans only follow Ireland because England aren't there (USA 94) or because we cant get tickets to see England?

18 would be a good age to officially declare your nationality to FIFA. If you don't know by then?

[Beavis]

This has been discussed before and I think the conclusion was that those who have a genuine interest in playing for Ireland (eg Gary Breen and Kev Kilbane) are as entitled to do so as any 1st generation irishman.
Those who jump on the bandwagon when they realise they're not good enough for England should be told to fook off.Declare before success(or lack of it) decides,say before 18.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Beavis
At 18 or 19,your old enough to decide what country you want to play for (not 14 like Cahill was).Gallen thought his career would go better so picked England,so feck im if he wants to play for us now he's languishing in the Nationwide leagues.

I agree. I wouldn't play for England if I was good enough to be a professional, even if I couldn't play for Ireland because I was a central defender and O'Leary, McGrath and Lawrenson were ahead of me.

Gallen was worse than the Michael Robinsons or Andy Townsends of this world. He went around telling people he was Irish after he was capped (I maybe going senile but didn't he do an interview in Hot Press stating this?). I think he also went to the US in 94 with his brothers too.

I say feck him too.:mad:

[Slash/ED]

Aside from the rights and wrongs of him playing for us, he's a feckin second division player! He wouldn't get near the team even if he could.

[lopez]

Originally posted by daithi
Last month, at a meeting in Doha, FIFA's Extraordinary Congress voted to amend the statutes on the eligibility of players to play international football.

Up to now the rule has been that if a player makes a competitive appearance for a country then he is stuck with that nation for the rest of his career.

It also means that Anglo-Irish kids at English clubs, who are being put under pressure daily to declare for England, can now hedge their bets by exercising their right to Irish citizenship because it could turn out to be their passport to the World Cup.

The only player that should benefit from this new rule are those who play for Northern Ireland - due to some dubious, and illegal, 'gentleman's' agreement - and then find that because of the club they play for they get threatened with a shooting. Certainly not players who find that as their promise deserted them, so did their Irishness increase.

[sadloserkid]

I should probably point out that nowhere does Kevin Gallen say that he actually wants to play for Ireland... He felt he was more English than Irish and declared for them. Fair play to him so, I'd have more respect for him than Clinton Morrison. I don't remember him ever suggesting that he wanted to play for Ireland (not saying it didn't happen lopez, just that I don't remember it as a young lad). Likewise I can't understand the fuss about him going to the US for the World Cup. Even if he did go to cheer Ireland so what? There's clearly an Irish link there and just because he didn't feel Irish enough to declare for us doesn't mean that he despises us in any way. I have Welsh great-grandparents. It doesn't make me feel Welsh by any stretch but I quite like to see them doing well at the same time. Ditto for Gallen or Matt Holland or whoever. I've never understood the furore over Holland singing along to the British national anthem at Wembley. He may be an Irish international but he's still half-English!!! It's easy for those of us with 4 Irish grandparents to get all pious and moral about it but why shouldn't these players be aware and indeed proud if all sides of their heritage. If anything they should be applauded for it!

As for the rule I think it should be a case of whoever you first play for at a certain level (U-18 or U-21 for me) then there's no going back.

[lopez]

SLK. I've only had two (deceased) Irish grandparents, so I do agree with you over Matt Holland and anyone else with one foreign parent. I've said this on other threads, and if you look at my username I'm highlighting my partial foreigness.

You are correct about Gallen's intentions - he hasn't said that he wants to play for Ireland - because until now this has not been possible once he played for England. Things may change now. That is what this thread is about.

Gallen was lucky that: A. he was born prior to 1983 and B. he is a sportsman. Firstly, since 1983, no one born of foreign parents in Britain is automatically entitled to British Citizenship. I believe there have been appeals for the law to change in Ireland (the most liberal citizenship laws in Europe) due to the hysteria over foreign women (basically the black ones) arriving in Ireland pregnant. Secondly, even in countries with citizenship based on Ius Sanguinis (that is on blood rather than birthplace) there is always a passport waiting for any promising foreign sporstperson. There'll be passports galore - change of law or no change of law - if the women I've mentioned above knock out a few Irish internationals.

And you're right about Gallen supporting Ireland in 94. Who should he support when he has two Irish parents?

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by lopez
You are correct about Gallen's intentions - he hasn't said that he wants to play for Ireland - because until now this has not been possible once he played for England. Things may change now. That is what this thread is about.

Sure but some of the other posters (not you I'll add) are already rounding up the members for a lynch mob and I felt this to be a bit unfair to Master Gallen given that he hasn't said a word yet. Some lazy journalist is looking for a quick story here, I think that's all really. The intention is good and I'd fully support Cahill's case but I think the story has a kinda "Kevin Gallen in 'come and get me Kerr' slant that's totally unfounded."

All I'm saying is let's not give Gallen too much grief until he earns it.

[lopez]

Apologies! I can see that the original thread was mostly taken up with (an unsourced) article.

It is ironic that when Gallen was in Dublin playing for QPR in the mid nineties, he was booed by fans for not opting for Ireland, some of whom would no doubt ask me, pbn and others who we'd be supporting if Ireland got England in the play-offs.

I personally find it hard to fathom someone with both parents from the one same country playing for another, even their place of birth. Most of the natives here would consider Gallen a Paddy if he weren't a footballer. I remember one workmate telling me how he laughed when he saw some NF bloke running for election in the seventies with 'a name like O'Shaughnnessy',:rolleyes: before adding: 'You'd think the c**t would change his surname first.'

[Condex]

People like Gallen should just f**k off.

[fergalr]

The unforgivable thing about Kevin Gallen is that he declared for England despite the fact that his two brothers considered themselves Irish and had already won underage caps for us (as mentioned in the original article).

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by fergalr
The unforgivable thing about Kevin Gallen is that he declared for England despite the fact that his two brothers considered themselves Irish and had already won underage caps for us (as mentioned in the original article).

So if Kevin Gallen's brothers decided to join the KKK we should lamabast Kevin for not following suit? Give him a break man, he made his choice as he was perfectly entitled to do. If he didn't want to declare for Ireland that was his perogative and as I said above I'd respect that far more than somebody like Clinton Morrison. Even when Gallen declared for England nobody expected him to get called up any time soon so he wasn't going to be walking into the England team anyway. If he didn't feel Irish enough to play for us then I wouldn't have wanted him to and that's what it really boils down to. We love to criticise the blow in like Morrison and Holland but take offence at somebody who refuses to do the same??? :confused:

[lopez]

Originally posted by sadloserkid
So if Kevin Gallen's brothers decided to join the KKK we should lamabast Kevin for not following suit? Give him a break man, he made his choice as he was perfectly entitled to do. If he didn't want to declare for Ireland that was his perogative and as I said above I'd respect that far more than somebody like Clinton Morrison...

Clinton Morrison has only one Irish grandparent. So he's trying to make out he's Irish because he thinks that's what's needed for the fans and meeja. Deep down I doubt if he knows as much about being Irish as the rest of us know about being black. But why should he deserve less respect than Gallen? Gallen, even by his own confession - let alone by his brothers' standards, most English public opinion too, and had he born in a country like Germany, the law aswell - is Irish.

Gallen can go play for Western Samoa if it takes his and their fancy. He can go through a painful operation to change his sex too. It's not for us to tell other people what to do, just I can't see myself doing what he did. Anyway, Gallen walked straight into the England youth team. The FA don't hang around not capping youngsters with potential dual nationality. He was also under the impression that things were always going to be this good. That was IMO what swung him.

Changing things slightly, I met this Irish woman (whose surname was if I remember Challis) just after the 94 World Cup in a pub in North London where the RISSC were having their meeting. She reckons her son, (again if memory serves me correct was called Trevor) a then youth player at QPR, was pressurised by Gerry Francis into playing for the England youth team. These were after all pre-Bosman days when only four foreigners could play in a team. Perhaps this is also figured in Gallen's decision.

[Plastic Paddy]

Spot on Lopez. :)

I remember reading more than one newspaper article written at the time Kevin Gallen opted for England pointing the finger at Gerry Francis for pressurising Gallen to do so. Apparently, this was due to Francis not wanting Gallen to count under the three foreign player-rule. It would seem that the player was forced to choose between club and country, and had quite a difficult decision on his hands.

His brothers (Joe and Stephen) played for Watford and represented Ireland at underage levels, and his family were/are quite well-known in Irish circles in north-west London. I'd happily say give him a chance, as our lack of depth in the squad means we have to consider all possibilities available to us.

:D PP

On another note, Trevor Challis now plays for Telford in the Nationwide Conference, level 5 of the English football pyramid. We let one slip through the net a few weeks back at that level when Luke Rodgers of Shrewsbury Town was capped by the England National Game XI (as they're called). They rate him quite highly at Shrewsbury, and we had him in a recent u-21 panel although he didn't play.

[fan in reading]

I beleive that young players (including Kevin Gallen) were put under pressure by their clubs and maangers to ensure that they did not become "foreign" for the purposes of the "three foreigners" rule.

I also understand that Mark Kelly of Portsmouth (born in Basingstoke) was put under intense pressure by Alan "how far into the conversation will we get before I mention 1966?" Ball to play for England. He held firm and played a full international under Jack Charlton before Alan ****** picked him for Portsmouth's first team. A knee injury cut short a promising club and international career.

From a personal point of view, I would do what Mark Kelly did (that is, if I was not a ****e football and actually had a choice).

[lopez]

PP: When it comes to work, we've all done things we are not exactly proud of. Take me working for the London Underground. Chupa mi pija Miguel Forzeto, but the post of Prince Charles' valet carries more status these days.:eek:

Seriously, those that know Gallen personally point to this. Mate of mine who worked at the Irish Post in the nineties knew the three brothers (I met Gallen's brother a couple of times as well) and he claims he was pressured. Certainly Kevin Gallen was no 'three lions tatooed on my stomach' Gerry Fitt. Thanks for the info on Trevor.

Reading man: You've got Alan Cojone off to a tee. I've counted that b@llox going eleven seconds without mentioning 66. But you're right about Mark Kelly. Told Cojone to go chupa his pija as well. Funny but I was wondering what happened to him the other day when I saw him on the cover of an old programme.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by daithi
[BCurrently playing in Division 2, Kevin Gallen may not be what Kerr is currently looking for as he bids to assemble a squad capable of reaching Germany.
[/B]

Of course he isn't. A few years back he had the makings of a great player, but, IMO his career has now washed up. Do we seriously want another player jumping on the easy money wagon or are we finally going to start being a progressive nation in international soccer??

[noby]

I think if the rule is there, then I have no problem exploiting it.
while we don't want journey men, wanting international caps, declaring for Ireland, I see nothing wrong with seeking out players that are eligible, for the benefit of the team.

Other countries use the rules to their benefit, so why not us?

[John83]

I agree. For example, Morrisson is clearly a band-wagon jumper, but I still want him in the team becausehe's a good striker and he tries hard when he's in the team. To paraphrase that Lucozade bloke, when you win, nothing else matters.

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by John83
I agree. For example, Morrisson is clearly a band-wagon jumper, but I still want him in the team becausehe's a good striker and he tries hard when he's in the team. To paraphrase that Lucozade bloke, when you win, nothing else matters.

Fact.

[Irish_Hoop]

QPR fan here.

Some points of clarification

1. Kevin Gallen "opted" for England because the club didn't want him to be classed as foreign for UEFA purposes (in the early to mid 90's we were quite good and were close to qualifying for Europe. Seems a long time ago now).

2. Gallen may be playing in Division 2 but that bald fact hides a lot. He is with QPR because he loves the club - remember that old fashioned virtue, loyalty? He only left because he was forced out by Gerry Francis and came back as soon as he was gone. He is a very good player - at least Division 1 level, and there were rumours of him being scouted by Spurs last year (which confirms his divsion 1 quality in my book!).

3. Gallen's career at the highest level was thwarted by his cruciate ligament injury in 1996. That kept him out of the game for over a year, and when he came back he had lost a crucial yard of pace. What he lost in pace he more than makes up for in guile, intelligence and he is an excellent link man between midfield and attack.


I think you a lot of you are taking this far too seriously. It is possible to be Irish and English. I am London born of Irish parents, living in Ireland and I follow both Ireland and England. When they played each other I supported Ireland but that would be the only time I cheer against England. It really ****es me off to hear Irish people booing the England players they were cheering only a week ago when playing for their clubs.

[NigeSausagepump]

Originally posted by Irish_Hoop
It really ****es me off to hear Irish people booing the England players they were cheering only a week ago when playing for their clubs.

While I personally don't have any axe to grind with the England football team and I do find it slightly sad to see Irish people booing the English team, I must say I also find it sad seeing English people doing the same to the likes of Argentina and Germany. The reasoning behind the Irish booing the English isn't a million miles away from why the English boo the teams of the countries I've mentioned.

[Beavis]

England have rivals with many nations;Germany,Argentina,France,Scotland,Wales,Ir eland.We have one nemesis and an irish person can hadly be faulted for having an anti-British sentiment.I'm not talking mindless 'Up the Ra' 'F*uck the Huns' and 'The Wolfetones are Ireland's greatest band' boll*x but there's nothing wrong with gaining joy in seeing England lose after,well,keeping a nation oppressed for 100s of years.(not trying to start a history argument but anyway no-one will deny this)
If this feeling in Ireland never manifests itself in much more than the odd booing of a player,then what is the harm really?
:)

[Irish_Hoop]

I take both the points made above, and agree that England do boo Germany and Argentina. I don't like that either.

It's just being the son of Irish immigrants in England gives you a different perspective. England gave my parents the opportunities they couldn't get back home, and I'm grateful for that. I know my history as much as the next man, and know what happened in Ireland in the past.

I firmly believe, however, that the Irish physche needs to move to the next level - independent for over 80 years, peace (of sorts) in the Northe, the time has come for the nation to display maturity and move on.

And by the way, you forgot to mention that the English boo the French as well.

And Australia,

and.....

[NigeSausagepump]

Originally posted by Irish_Hoop
in Ireland in the past.

I firmly believe, however, that the Irish physche needs to move to the next level - independent for over 80 years, peace (of sorts) in the Northe, the time has come for the nation to display maturity and move on.



Agreed.

I also think that the psyche of some of the English fans needs to move on too. Much as whatever beef the Irish had with the English is in the past (opening major can of worms there!), so too is England's supposed gripe with the Germans, the Argentineans and the French. Having lived in England for 4 years I have a soft spot for their football team, but I most certainly don't have a soft spot for the attitude of some sections of the media and some of the fans towards certain foreign nations.

[Irish_Hoop]

Originally posted by NigeSausagepump
Agreed.

I also think that the psyche of some of the English fans needs to move on too. Much as whatever beef the Irish had with the English is in the past (opening major can of worms there!), so too is England's supposed gripe with the Germans, the Argentineans and the French. Having lived in England for 4 years I have a soft spot for their football team, but I most certainly don't have a soft spot for the attitude of some sections of the media and some of the fans towards certain foreign nations.

Spot on.

[noby]

Originally posted by Irish_Hoop
QPR fan here.

Some points of clarification

1. Kevin Gallen "opted" for England because the club didn't want him to be classed as foreign for UEFA purposes



Out of curiosity, what would happen if he (or any player for that matter) didn't opt for anyone. what would uefa class him as then?

[Irish_Hoop]

I don't think it matters anymore.

You are either an EU player or not. If not, you need a work permit.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by Irish_Hoop
I don't think it matters anymore.

You are either an EU player or not. If not, you need a work permit.

Hoop's right. Back in the day, the rules allowed clubs to have 3 foreign and 2 "assimilated" players. The latter covered players who had played for a club/lived in a country for more than 5 years. ISTR that Ryan Giggs was a high-profile case in the latter category when the rules were introduced, as ManUre were previously concerned that he would be treated as a foreign player (and thus be subject to the quota when being considered for selection). Anyhow, then came along one Jean-Marc Bosman and the whole thing fell down like a house of cards.

These days, the common rules tend to state that a non-EU player should have represented his country in 75% of all competitive fixtures in the previous two years before a work permit will be granted. But I digress.

:D PP