East Wall Killing

[Ringo]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1208/dublin.html


Five people are now being held over the shooting dead of a man in Dublin's East Wall area last night.

Father-of-one Aidan O'Kane, 50, was shot and later died after he chased a group of teenagers whom he believed threw eggs at his home.

Mr O'Kane was shot in the stomach in a laneway off Bargy Road after he chased some teenagers from outside his home.

it is understood he was shot once with a handgun at around 7.15pm.

It sure is a ****ed up world were living in. You grow immune to the gangs & gangsters shooting each other in the news. What is it going to be like in the future?

[ruben_sosa]

it was a terrible thing to happen to a hardworking fella. the problem is that these gurriers have no stake in society, therefore nothing to protect/lose like a job or a reputation. They don't seem to have any fear, because jail would probably be better than the homes some of them have come from. I don't think politicians have accepted that there's now an underclass out there who are completely dysfunctional, violent and self-destructive and the easiest way to deal with them is to ignore them and pay out their dole each week without asking questions. Baby P, Shannon Mathews, the two Polish lads who were murdered last year - it's all the same problem, a society where punishment is seen as infringing on human rights and the responsibility of parents has been replaced by that of social workers. I'd describe myself as a liberal but when it comes to criminal justice i think liberalism has created this mess. What exactly is wrong with inflicting physical punishment on people who commit serious crime? it can't be any less effective in dealing with it than herding them into expensive revolving door prisons with tv's and three meals a day and then letting them out years before they're due out. I can see the argument that in america jails are tougher and for that reason criminals will be more likely to shoot a cop than go back to jail... but the problem is that politicians aren't trying different approaches to see what works better, they're just throwing money at a failed system.

[pete]

Could the parents be prosecuted for failure to control their children. Surely it could be argued they are accomplishes?

These children should definitely be tried as adults.

[Newryrep]

it was a terrible thing to happen to a hardworking fella. the problem is that these gurriers have no stake in society, therefore nothing to protect/lose like a job or a reputation. They don't seem to have any fear, because jail would probably be better than the homes some of them have come from. I don't think politicians have accepted that there's now an underclass out there who are completely dysfunctional, violent and self-destructive and the easiest way to deal with them is to ignore them and pay out their dole each week without asking questions. Baby P, Shannon Mathews, the two Polish lads who were murdered last year - it's all the same problem, a society where punishment is seen as infringing on human rights and the responsibility of parents has been replaced by that of social workers. I'd describe myself as a liberal but when it comes to criminal justice i think liberalism has created this mess. What exactly is wrong with inflicting physical punishment on people who commit serious crime? it can't be any less effective in dealing with it than herding them into expensive revolving door prisons with tv's and three meals a day and then letting them out years before they're due out. I can see the argument that in america jails are tougher and for that reason criminals will be more likely to shoot a cop than go back to jail... but the problem is that politicians aren't trying different approaches to see what works better, they're just throwing money at a failed system.

Would agree with a lot of this, there is an underclass nearly everywhere and they figure they owe nothing to society so they dont give a ****. Same with various estates that used to be peacefull , a few families move in and the estate goes down the tubes. Everybody and their dog know the families yet they cant get evicted ?

[Docboy]

Would agree with a lot of this, there is an underclass nearly everywhere and they figure they owe nothing to society so they dont give a ****. Same with various estates that used to be peacefull , a few families move in and the estate goes down the tubes. Everybody and their dog know the families yet they cant get evicted ?

Unfortunately, if they leave one estate they have to go somewhere else. It's that age-old problem: "Not at my backdoor!"

[ruben_sosa]

Unfortunately, if they leave one estate they have to go somewhere else. It's that age-old problem: "Not at my backdoor!"

Yea, Clare County Council complained to Limerick County Council about this a few months ago. Basically Limerick CoCo have quietly been buying houses in Claire and moving their worst tenants there !!
In America the same thing happened with some cities encouraging/aiding their homeless people to go to other cities, there was a South Park episode parodying it.

I think the current problem with feral kids is similar to the drug dealer problem of the 90's. Residents marched on the houses of drug dealers and shamed them into moving or whatever... i don't really know if it was actually effective because obviously there's still huge drugs problems in Dublin, but it'd be worth trying. The councils have it right when they evict persistent anti-social families without the obligation to re-house them, but it's just a drop in the ocean.

[Newryrep]

Unfortunately, if they leave one estate they have to go somewhere else. It's that age-old problem: "Not at my backdoor!"

If they are evicted from one estate after various warnings they automaticlly forfeit their right to be automatically housed - any chidren under 18 are taken off them and put into care they might just have a chance of making it wthout the waste of space that is their parents, the parents can live in the ditch for all I care - it might just stop the ridiculos situation where say 28 out of 30 families are asking to be re-housed due to 2 No anti social families.

[pete]

Youth (16) remanded in custody (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1210/breaking16.htm)



A 16-year-old youth has been remanded in custody after he appeared in court charged with the murder of Dublin man Aidan O'Kane outside his home in East Wall last weekend.

The boy, who may not be named, appeared before the Dublin Children's Court before Judge Bryan Smith charged with murdering Mr O'Kane in a laneway between Bargy Road and Shelmalier Road on Sunday night.


How can you charge someone with murder in a Childrens Court?

If proven that he was in possession of the gun before the victim chased him seems case of premeditation.

[Ringo]

Children Court
The District Court has jurisdiction to try a child or a young person for any offence except homicide provided that in the case of an indictable offence, the child's parent or the young person has been informed of his/her right to trial by jury and has consented to be dealt with summarily.

http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/Library3.nsf/pagecurrent/9EC8DE648821A12B80256D8700505159

it would appear they appear here first & the Judge decides if it can be dealth with in a childrens court.

[hula4]

Youth (16) remanded in custody (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1210/breaking16.htm)



How can you charge someone with murder in a Childrens Court?

If proven that he was in possession of the gun before the victim chased him seems case of premeditation.


any one under the age of 18 has to go to the Childrens Court first, what will more than likely happen then is the judge will refuse jurisdiction as (obviously) the alleged offence is too serious and it will be sent forward for trial to the Central Criminal Court eventually but it has to start in the Childrens Court first

[jebus]

Would agree with a lot of this, there is an underclass nearly everywhere and they figure they owe nothing to society so they dont give a ****. Same with various estates that used to be peacefull , a few families move in and the estate goes down the tubes. Everybody and their dog know the families yet they cant get evicted ?

While I agree with you to an extent, what do you think they owe society? What does society do for say a 13 year old from a broken family in a bar area of Limerick or Dublin or anywhere?

I'm not saying they should be doing what these little scum did in this case (and I do hope they are fully tried for murder), but is it that hard to see why a 13 year old looks around at the unequal wealth distribution in our society and realises he's got a miniscule chance of ever improving his lot in life the honest way? It's the main reason why the gangs are able to pick up kids and used them to carry drugs for them, it's why so many kids turn to crime, or see a life of crime as glamorous. Society genuinely doesn't do a whole lot for them, so I can see why they would get disillusioned with it all.

Again, not condoning the scum involved in this case, more opening a wider debate

[shantykelly]

While I agree with you to an extent, what do you think they owe society? What does society do for say a 13 year old from a broken family in a bar area of Limerick or Dublin or anywhere?

I'm not saying they should be doing what these little scum did in this case (and I do hope they are fully tried for murder), but is it that hard to see why a 13 year old looks around at the unequal wealth distribution in our society and realises he's got a miniscule chance of ever improving his lot in life the honest way? It's the main reason why the gangs are able to pick up kids and used them to carry drugs for them, it's why so many kids turn to crime, or see a life of crime as glamorous. Society genuinely doesn't do a whole lot for them, so I can see why they would get disillusioned with it all.

Again, not condoning the scum involved in this case, more opening a wider debate

you could argue that if they want to enjoy the benefits of society, ie housing, jobs, schools, benefit payments, health care, sanitation, leisure and recreational facilities and opportunities, and so on, then they owe society, ie their neighbours and fellow citizens, obedience to its laws and conventions (except where said laws are clearly unjust and wrong, not starting that debate) and a bit of decency in their actions. i know plenty of people from bad areas and deprived backgrounds, and they didnt go down this route. my parents are two good examples. both left school without any qualifications, both came from what would be considered rough parts of derry, and both worked damn hard to make sure that me and my four siblings all got educated and knew the value of hard work, manners, and respect. The deprived background and lack of opportunities argument is a cop out from people accepting responsibility for their own actions, in this case this scum murdered an innocent man. they should have the book thrown at them.

[jebus]

I hear what you're saying ShantyKelly and I agree about this case and the book getting thrown at them.

But since your parents time, hell since my time (I'm not from the greatest of areas either) the distribution of wealth has gotten ridiculous. The Celtic Tiger left many areas behind and left a lot of people in a tight spot financially, none more so than those from deprived areas (for want of a better word, although I hate that term). Kids will see what they want in life, that could be anything from winning the X Factor to playing for Man Utd, but if they are constantly shown that they can't do that (and facilities in a lot of these areas are non-existant)they'll start to look elsewhere. Obviously not all will walk into a life of crime, but those that do will view it that society has given them nothing and so they owe society nothing no?

The disregard some of these scumbags have for life could even be traced back to this I think

[shantykelly]

i get what you're saying jebus, but growing up (still only 26!), i knocked about with a couple of different crowds, and the issues seemed to be inverted. outside school, i was usually up to mischief with fellas from 'bad' areas, but never anything serious. all those boys now have jobs, homes and quite a few are starting families. some of the lads i knew from school, bright fellas from 'respectable' families dossed about in school, did **** all with their lives, and i now see them out and about the town at the weekend bumming about. they get crappy jobs, get blocked all weekend and are amongst the worst druggies that I know. go figure.

[bennocelt]

While I agree with you to an extent, what do you think they owe society? What does society do for say a 13 year old from a broken family in a bar area of Limerick or Dublin or anywhere?

I'm not saying they should be doing what these little scum did in this case (and I do hope they are fully tried for murder), but is it that hard to see why a 13 year old looks around at the unequal wealth distribution in our society and realises he's got a miniscule chance of ever improving his lot in life the honest way? It's the main reason why the gangs are able to pick up kids and used them to carry drugs for them, it's why so many kids turn to crime, or see a life of crime as glamorous. Society genuinely doesn't do a whole lot for them, so I can see why they would get disillusioned with it all.

Again, not condoning the scum involved in this case, more opening a wider debate

Understand where you are coming from - but what about the rest of us who come from working class backgrounds with not much?

No excuse really - we have free education - go and have a look around parts of Asia and see the poverty there then come back and see these dossers. i have no sympathy at all - sorry:mad:

[soccerc]

what about the rest of us who come from working class backgrounds with not much?

No excuse really - we have free education - go and have a look around parts of Asia and see the poverty there then come back and see these dossers. i have no sympathy at all - sorry:mad:

Exactly, the bleeding heart liberals love to blame 'society'.;)

[pete]

It is too easy to make excuses for children from disadvantaged areas but we are talking about murder not a minor crime. I really think the parents are culpable in this also & should be tried as an accomplish.

[jebus]

It is too easy to make excuses for children from disadvantaged areas but we are talking about murder not a minor crime. I really think the parents are culpable in this also & should be tried as an accomplish.

I clearly stated two or three times I'm not on about this case, I'm talking about the wider world of teens getting involved in crime.

Call me a liberal all you want lads, we can keep going around the same merrygoround that we're on with organised crime for as long as it takes :)