Comparison of Irish clubs in Europe versus Scottish clubs in Europe

[Dodge]

Ireland
Played 16
Won 8
Drew 4
Lost 4

Scotland
Played 13
Won 0
Drew 3
Lost 10

Every Scottish team exited at the earliest possible stage. Scotland still has one game to play. Their draws have been at home to English, Danish and Lithuanian opposition. In the knockout competitions, they've lost out to Swedish, French, Norwegian and Lithuanian opposition.

[Mr A]

Skewed by the fact that they enter competitions at later and more difficult stages though..

[Dodge]

Not completely skewed though. Rangers exited competition at same stage as Drogheda. Hibs exited one round earlier than bohs. Queen of the South went out a round before Pats. Motherwell the same round. And Elfsborg, who pats drew with away and beat at home, beat Hibs home and away.

The stats, of course, are meaningless. I just posted them as I saw them elsewhere and thought they were interesting enough.

Wonder does anyone have stats for the non Old Firm Scottish clubs in europe in the last 5/6 years

[pineapple stu]

They're easily gotten on something like bert kassies' site, but they're not dissimilar. Outside the Old Firm (and Aberdeen last year), I think most Scottish sides have struggled to get beyond the First Round. That'd include Gretna being hammered by Derry.

Edit - damn, no-one's biting to Dodge's workload, and I've nothing better to do during lunch. :p

Exclusing the InterToto, which isn't on the Bert Kassies site -

2007/08
P-W-D-L
Derry - 2-0-1-1
Drogheda - 4-1-2-1
St Pat's - 2-0-1-1

Dunfermline - 2-0-1-1 (lost to a second division Swedish side)
Aberdeen got through the UEFA Cup groups and got knocked out by Bayers.

2006/07
Cork City - 4-1-1-2
Drogheda - 4-2-1-1
Derry - 6-3-2-1

Gretna - 2-0-1-1 (lost to Derry)
Hearts - 6-1-2-3 (beat a Bosnian side before losing to AEK and Sparta Prague in the CL and UEFA Cup respectively)

2005/06
Shels - 4-2-1-1
Longford - 2-1-0-1
Cork - 6-1-2-3

Dundee United - 2-0-2-0 (lost on away goals to MyPa of Finland)
Hibs - 2-0-1-1 (hammered away by Dnipro of Ukraine)

2004/05
Shels - 8-1-4-3
Bohs - 2-0-1-1
Longford - 2-0-0-2

Dunfermline - 2-0-1-1 (lost to an Icelandic side)
Hearts - 6-2-1-3 (made it into but not out of the UEFA Cup group)

[Réiteoir]

Just done a quick totalling using data on the Kassies site.

Since 2000:

Scottish Clubs (minus the Old Firm) - Played 70

Won 19
Drawn 21
Lost 30

The clubs involved:
Aberdeen
Dundee FC
Dundee Utd
Dunfermline
Gretna
Hearts
Hibs
Kilmarnock
Livingston
Motherwell
Queen of the South
St Johnstone

[Billy-Green]

Rangers exited competition at same stage as Drogheda. Hibs exited one round earlier than bohs. Queen of the South went out a round before Pats. Motherwell the same round. And Elfsborg, who pats drew with away and beat at home, beat Hibs home and away.


When i read this i was delighted. This shows that we do really have a great standard of player over here. Hopefully clubs in scotland and england realise this so we can start to demand a higher fee for are players being sold on the cheap

[pineapple stu]

Problem is, most of the players in the league are either out of contract, not being paid or both.

[Billy-Green]

Problem is, most of the players in the league are either out of contract, not being paid or both.

Life just isn't fair

[Dodge]

Problem is, most of the players in the league are either out of contract, not being paid or both.

Good job Scottish football is so well run. No premier club would ever go bust there

I knew the results were all available, I just wanted someone to compile it for me. Cheers pineapple and Reitoir

[Réiteoir]

Good job Scottish football is so well run. No premier club would ever go bust there

Except Gretna of course...

[Dodge]

You get a pass, just, because you may still be celebrating a double but try turning on the sarcasm detector Reitoir

[niallsparky]

Just to be fair, I will point out that Hibs exited the Intertoto at the same stage as us. Not that it changes much.

[Lim till i die]

Good job Scottish football is so well run. No premier club would ever go bust there


Gretna were a freakshow and it's not fair to judge the SPL by their rise and fall.

Realisticly it's light years ahead of the League of Ireland with regards to crowds, facilities, finances blah blah blah

[Réiteoir]

You get a pass, just, because you may still be celebrating a double but try turning on the sarcasm detector Reitoir

np - to be fair I'm still fairly locked from the celebrations on Sunday :D

Trying gradually to come down...

[Dodge]

Fair cop niall, thought it was different.

Oh and LTID, where the grounds are vastly superior (mainly paid for by UK taxpayer) and the crowds slightly better (non Old Firm obviously), there finances are very much in the same state as ours (only on a bigger scale). Seriously, read up on the problems facing big clubs like Hibs and hearts.

[Lim till i die]

and the crowds slightly better (non Old Firm obviously)

Slightly better??

Come on now Dodge.


there finances are very much in the same state as ours (only on a bigger scale).

Wage cuts nearly all round??

Big clubs going to the wall on an annual basis??

Not being flippant, just genuinely don't know.

[tiktok]

Realisticly it's light years ahead of the League of Ireland with regards to crowds, facilities, finances blah blah blah

...but not in terms of european competition, which is the point of the thread.

The facilities are much better obviously, which contributes IMO directly to the crowds they get, it's something we seriously need to address over here, even small improvements could help.

[Lim till i die]

...but not in terms of european competition, which is the point of the thread.


Using the European exploits of Irish clubs which grossly overspent to achieve said exploits as a barometer for the standard of the League of Ireland is every bit as silly as using Gretna as a barometer for the state of the SPL

Besides, I was responding to a specific point Dodge made, not the title of the thread

[Lim till i die]

The facilities are much better obviously, which contributes IMO directly to the crowds they get,

On the facilities thing.

Is Pittodrie for example, really that much more comfortable for watching a match than Turners Cross is??

[tiktok]

Using the European exploits of Irish clubs which grossly overspent to achieve said exploits as a barometer for the standard of the League of Ireland is every bit as silly as using Gretna as a barometer for the state of the SPL

Cork City's results have, ironically, been brutal in Europe since we started overspending. Back when we were running a tight ship we did much better.

Personally, I think that the SPL -v- LoI arguments are pointless, but it is worth noting that the last two times that Irish and Scottish Clubs have faced each other in direct competition in Europe, the LoI side came out on top.

[tiktok]

On the facilities thing.

Is Pittodrie for example, really that much more comfortable for watching a match than Turners Cross is??

Couldn't tell you, I've never been in Pittodrie.
I'd imagine that Ibrox would be more comfy than United Park though.

When I mentioned facilites, I was thinking more of trainign centers and academies than the stadia themselves.

[Lim till i die]

The facilities are much better obviously, which contributes IMO directly to the crowds they get, it's something we seriously need to address over here, even small improvements could help.



When I mentioned facilites, I was thinking more of trainign centers and academies than the stadia themselves.

So you were making the point that better training centres and acadamies would contribute directly to the crowds we get??

Would have been a lot easier to just say "better players" ;)

[Lim till i die]

I'd imagine that Ibrox would be more comfy than United Park though.


Nonsense comparison.

Point I was making was how come the cross wont be bursting at the seams every week when the roof on the St. Annes end is finished??

But since you've said that you actually meant it's shiny academies which draw in crowds, whatever..........

[tiktok]

So you were making the point that better training centres and acadamies would contribute directly to the crowds we get??

Would have been a lot easier to just say "better players" ;)

Ha, I'm caught!

I was actually thinking of facilities as a package though. What I know of Scottish stadia is from TV and a fleeting visit to Easter Road, but they appear to be in the main, covered on four sides, fully seated and from listening to those that travel there, good on food/drink facilities. That would give them an edge on most grounds in the LoI.

In terms of training facilities, they appear far ahead of anything I've seen in the LoI, players who've moved across (and some that have come back) confirm as much, then again, salthill devon are light years ahead of anything I've seen in the LoI.

[tiktok]

Point I was making was how come the cross wont be bursting at the seams every week when the roof on the St. Annes end is finished??

Because the great Cork Sporting Public couldn't give a **** about the LoI.
That's a problem every club faces.

[Mr A]

Because the great Cork Sporting Public couldn't give a **** about the LoI.
That's a problem every club faces.

True, it's only once in a blue moon you see any in Finn Park. The apathy of langers towards Harps has been a source of great consternation at FHFC for some time.

[tiktok]

True, it's only once in a blue moon you see any in Finn Park. The apathy of langers towards Harps has been a source of great consternation at FHFC for some time.

It's understandable, especially for anyone who remembers the 80's when busloads would make their way up from West Cork to support you. Those were the days! Why do you think we stopped travelling up, maybe because you ran out of sheep in about 1993?

[Heliodorus]

Skewed by the fact that they enter competitions at later and more difficult stages though..


You could also argue that the old firms co-efficients and results allow other scottish clubs get easier draws in europe. Celtic and Rangers in no way represent the average level of the scottish league.

[Aberdonian Stu]

Is Pittodrie for example, really that much more comfortable for watching a match than Turners Cross is??

Immensely, and I like the Cross. Pittodrie as a whole is well kept and the Dick Donald stand in particular puts anything in the EL to shame.

[Heliodorus]

Immensely, and I like the Cross. Pittodrie as a whole is well kept and the Dick Donald stand in particular puts anything in the EL to shame.

The Howl of the North Sea, winds of 70 mph, rain, snow and sleet, ships from the carbon emitting oil industry setting off to sea as Aberdeen play East Sterling in the Scottish League Cup on a cold bleak Thursday night. Any takers anyone?

[pineapple stu]

Is it any different to freezing rain as Cork City take on Bally-who's-it in the Munster Senior Cup on a Tuesday in late February?

Lots of grounds encounter bad weather.

[BeaumontBohs]

Pittodrie has a beach right behind the Donald Stand no league of Ireland ground has a beach .

[Saint_Charlie]

Pittodrie has a beach right behind the Donald Stand no league of Ireland ground has a beach .

Bray...

[John83]

Bray...
There's a Dart line (and a road, I think) between them. And Bray's as cold as a long dead Polar bear in a snowstorm.

[maroon ultra]

Yes compared to Aberdeen which is like the Sahara at times.

[irishultra]

Yes compared to Aberdeen which is like the Sahara at times.


lol ye...id presume bray would be drier and milder than aberdeen.

[Candystripe]

The SFA have had to give a £300k payout to the 30 clubs this week as so many are struggling and couldn't wait until the end of the season.

£10k each.

[Dodge]

Slightly better??

Come on now Dodge.
I think the average SPl attendance when all Old Firm games are removed is something like 6-7,000. Hearts v Hibs had 12,000 at it last year and that’s a "huge" game. I used slightly better because although I'd die for us to get crowds that average that, they're still pants crowds in real terms.





Wage cuts nearly all round??

Big clubs going to the wall on an annual basis??

Not being flippant, just genuinely don't know.
Maybe not big clubs going to the wall but Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts and Both Dundees have been "saved" by benefactors in recent years. The Edinburgh clubs were talking about merging as neither could afford to continue on the path they were. As Candystripe pointed out the SFA has had to pay clubs money upfront as a lot of them are struggling.

[Schumi]

lol ye...id presume bray would be drier and milder than aberdeen.I can't imagine Bray being milder than anywhere. The Faroe Islands were warmer!

[Hibs4Ever]

Pittodrie is a sh!thole of a ground. Freezing cold all year round, and full of seagull cr@p

[tiktok]

Pittodrie is a sh!thole of a ground. Freezing cold all year round, and full of seagull cr@p

Full of Seagull crap? It gets more like the Carlisle grounds with every post.

[pete]

Good chance SPL could lose auto CL place in a couple of years if overtaken by a few countries. SPL teams have poor record of negotiating the qualifying rounds.

[Northern Light]

On the facilities thing.

Is Pittodrie for example, really that much more comfortable for watching a match than Turners Cross is??

Having been a season ticket holder in the past at Pittodrie and currently one at TC I can safely say Pittodrie is a far superior ground and that no LOI ground is better than any of the SPL grounds. (the atmosphere however at Pittodrie isn't as good as the box).

Even taking out the old firm the SPL (and notwithstanding the recent European results) is clearly of a higher standard - it stands to reason - they have a captive market - with less interest in the Premiership than here (though it is substantial) - no GAA/Munster rugby to compete with - long tradition with much bigger media infrastructure etc. It would often be the case that the combined total crowds at the LOI of a Friday night would approximate to one big gate at Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen (& not inlcuding the Old Firm) - saying that they seem to have the same ol mal administration etc etc as we do but all in all it is a bigger league - bigger crowds - better players - better standard (doesn't rock my boat as much as the LOI though!).

[Ram72]

Having been a season ticket holder in the past at Pittodrie and currently one at TC I can safely say Pittodrie is a far superior ground and that no LOI ground is better than any of the SPL grounds. (the atmosphere however at Pittodrie isn't as good as the box).

Even taking out the old firm the SPL (and notwithstanding the recent European results) is clearly of a higher standard - it stands to reason - they have a captive market - with less interest in the Premiership than here (though it is substantial) - no GAA/Munster rugby to compete with - long tradition with much bigger media infrastructure etc. It would often be the case that the combined total crowds at the LOI of a Friday night would approximate to one big gate at Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen (& not inlcuding the Old Firm) - saying that they seem to have the same ol mal administration etc etc as we do but all in all it is a bigger league - bigger crowds - better players - better standard (doesn't rock my boat as much as the LOI though!).
Take the Old Firm out of the SPL and within a few seasons that league wouldn't be much better then the LOI. As it stands the top few teams here would hold their own in the SPL. It's not a very good league.

[TheBoss]

The only way to settle this, is by putting the SPL sides into the Setanta Cup :D

[gspain]

I've no doubt that Celtic and Rangers are well ahead of our league.

I think otherwise our top teams would be very competitive with the middle order of the Scottish premier.

Hibs were stuffed home and away by Elfsborg this summer for example. Pats beat them at home and drew away.

Gretna's defeat by Derry is still a record home defeat for Scottish sides in Europe.

However we don't have the facilities of the middle order Scottish sides. I've been to grounds like Airdrie and Falkirk in recent years and they have facilities far ahead of our league. I know there are bad grounds too but by and large their grounds are well ahead of ours.

[Straightstory]

Using the European exploits of Irish clubs which grossly overspent to achieve said exploits as a barometer for the standard of the League of Ireland is every bit as silly as using Gretna as a barometer for the state of the SPL

Real Madrid are in debt to a tune of 160 million pounds. Hmmm... looks like they've overspent to achieve success in Europe too. It's not uncommon. Best way to judge this is results on the pitch. LOI is obviously not as far behind Scotland as it once was.

[Northern Light]

Take the Old Firm out of the SPL and within a few seasons that league wouldn't be much better then the LOI. As it stands the top few teams here would hold their own in the SPL. It's not a very good league.

I wouldn't agree with you at all - there is pretty much the same population as the island of Ireland - there is no GAA (so where here every own and village has a GAA club there there is a local football club) - rugby isn't as popular as here - the fixation on the Premiership isn't as much as here - they are football mad and have been consistently since the 19th century (more urbanised and industrialised historically) - the facilities are far better accross the board- the media interest is a factor of ten more than here. Even taking out the old firm there is much more support - much more money - much more local players than here - ergo it is of a better standard (nothwithstanding individual results in Europe - taken over the long term they are much more successful inlcuding winning trophies and not just the old firm) . As regards the Old Firm the remarkable thing is that how the other clubs have persisted even though it is quite clear they haven't a chance of winning anything (Hibs brought hundreds of supporters over to Cork a few years ago for a friendly (as regards recent results in Europe - we have punched above weight they have mucked it up). Personally I prefer the LOI but I often think we say these things about other leagues (the Irish League comes to mind) just to make ourselves feel better - it doesn't make it true.

[John83]

The only way to settle this, is by putting the SPL sides into the Setanta Cup :D
That might actually be worthwhile, if they'd be willing. It'd up the competition and the interest. Might even pique the interest of a few bhoys in the LoI.

[jebus]

That might actually be worthwhile, if they'd be willing. It'd up the competition and the interest. Might even pique the interest of a few bhoys in the LoI.

Celtic and Rangers wouldn't touch it with UCD's, and I can't see why the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen etc. would be bothered either to be honest