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MariborKev
24/11/2008, 7:32 PM
FourFourTwo had a feature on the Blue Square Premier(BSP) this month.

What interested me was the wage and attendances figures

Average attendance of 1,758 and average wages of £800.

Our average attendance is in the 1700s(though I think it is few hundred too high). Any guesses on what the average wage would be?

I mean total wage package/52 to give the weekly. So adding in basic, bonuses etc.

The article featured on the Setanta coverage but they made the point that they need to continue to improve the facilities in order to turn the interest in the TV games(70k+ average viewers) into increased attendance.

That is where I fundamental disagree with Rico, the product is there but we won't increase attendances until facilities improve.

pete
24/11/2008, 7:44 PM
Average attendance of 1,758 and average wages of £800

Hard to think that LOI wage levels would be below average €1000.



That is where I fundamental disagree with Rico, the product is there but we won't increase attendances until facilities improve.

True. Better facilities would make the same football a much better looking product. Only state grants can solve that & no chance of them increasing in the next few years of recession.

IMO LOI grounds need to be turned into large pubs. Irish people won't attend sport without alcohol. Without alcohol only the hardcore would attend doy racing.

Dassa
24/11/2008, 8:05 PM
I have just moved over to england and watch Dartford fc in the Ryman league. Over 1000 at each game in a fantastic brand new council built ground. It makes me realise just whats not there at home in the IL:(

irishultra
24/11/2008, 8:17 PM
loi has better players tho, or at least the better players in LOI are far superior to BSP.

pixiehead
24/11/2008, 8:18 PM
Hard to think that LOI wage levels would be below average €1000.



True. Better facilities would make the same football a much better looking product. Only state grants can solve that & no chance of them increasing in the next few years of recession.

IMO LOI grounds need to be turned into large pubs. Irish people won't attend sport without alcohol. Without alcohol only the hardcore would attend doy racing.

Agreed!!!

BohDiddley
24/11/2008, 9:59 PM
in a fantastic brand new council built ground.
Hold that thought. Who do councils in Ireland build for?

KevBGUFC
24/11/2008, 11:18 PM
Hold that thought. Who do councils in Ireland build for?

Councillors friends and back-pockets? OR is that just the zoning:rolleyes:

Dodge
25/11/2008, 7:56 AM
Hold that thought. Who do councils in Ireland build for?

Shamrock Rovers...

Oh and the average LOI wage would easily be below €1,000 pete. Half the pats squad alone is on less than that and we'd be one of the biggest spenders

Duggie
25/11/2008, 8:38 AM
800 for the blue square league, wouldnt have thought it would be that much so low down.

pineapple stu
25/11/2008, 8:40 AM
Don't forget they play at least 25 home games (23 league games plus Cups). Outside of the top four here, you've got 18 home games. Those seven extra gates add up.

Dodge
25/11/2008, 8:45 AM
800 for the blue square league, wouldnt have thought it would be that much so low down.

Thats a sizeable drop off from the average League Two wage too.

bennocelt
25/11/2008, 8:59 AM
That is where I fundamental disagree with Rico, the product is there but we won't increase attendances until facilities improve.


I think this idea is over rated and used as an excuse for some not to attend
Its football we are after - i dont go to football games cause the half time pie is delicious and the seat is comfy - and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

Irish people just dont do LOI - there is no band wagon to follow in the LOI

Dodge
25/11/2008, 9:22 AM
Its football we are after - i dont go to football games cause the half time pie is delicious and the seat is comfy - and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

yes, we want them (we being the league - I personally have given up on them)

If we had a ground breaking new marketing campaign that got people into the grounds for the first time ever, there's nothing to make a floating fan come back again. They might get lucky and get a cracker but more than likely they'll sit in uncomfortable seats, or stand on unsafe terracing and have to queue up at a van if they want chips and a coke. Remember that the people who go to LOI games at the moment don't care how ****ty the ground is, but we're a tiny minority, and we're not the people the league needs to attract.

My own personal opinion is that until alcohol is widely available at LOI grounds, we've no chance.

A face
25/11/2008, 9:49 AM
and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

Yes, we do .... most definitely, without doubt we do need them, them and all their mates as well. Thats exactly what we need .... keep this in mind and be nice to them. Hell, i'd even give up my seat for them. Tell everyone you know

Jofspring
25/11/2008, 9:49 AM
My own personal opinion is that until alcohol is widely available at LOI grounds, we've no chance.

Agree with that. Limerick did a promotion with alcohol involved and it got a few more people through the gates. The alcohol was free to a certain extent (5euro for a hotdog, match program and a beer) but it was definately the alcohol that got a few more people in.

Duggie
25/11/2008, 9:51 AM
marketing games that may only attract 500 - 1000 is a waste of time. thats not the way forward. better grounds is the only way forward IMO.

pete
25/11/2008, 9:52 AM
I don't think Pats (usually try to pass the ball) or Drogs (rarely pass the ball) this season played any different in Europe compared with LOI games but away grounds so much better backdrop for TV audience.

Lionel Ritchie
25/11/2008, 9:52 AM
Hard to think that LOI wage levels would be below average €1000. I find it harder to think of a LOI club that could currently sustain or justify a grand a week average wages. The sums just don't add up for me.


IMO LOI grounds need to be turned into large pubs. Irish people won't attend sport without alcohol. Absolutely agree


loi has better players tho, or at least the better players in LOI are far superior to BSP. ...once again -absolutely agree.


800 for the blue square league, wouldnt have thought it would be that much so low down. As with the LOI I just can't see the justification of those wages as a percentage of turnover at that level. I don't think I'm taking an entirely extreme example when I point to a good chunk of the Leeds United squad being on less than that not so long ago ...two divisions higher up.


I think this idea is over rated and used as an excuse for some not to attend
Its football we are after - i dont go to football games cause the half time pie is delicious and the seat is comfy - and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

Irish people just dont do LOI - there is no band wagon to follow in the LOI I see your point but you don't need converting. It has to be put to people as an entertainment product where they're sure to have a good time. We're dead in the water if we're holding it up as some sort of social or communal responsibility to attend. There's many other options out there that people will drift to more easily.

Billy-Green
25/11/2008, 9:54 AM
I think this idea is over rated and used as an excuse for some not to attend
Its football we are after - i dont go to football games cause the half time pie is delicious and the seat is comfy - and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

Irish people just dont do LOI - there is no band wagon to follow in the LOI

Kinda agree with you here but at the same time the toilets in tolka are horrible, a smelly p*ssed soaked floor with no lights.

MariborKev
25/11/2008, 12:14 PM
Its football we are after - i dont go to football games cause the half time pie is delicious and the seat is comfy - and if people really do think like this (which some do) then do we really want them in our grounds?

The reality is that we need everybody in our grounds.

Benno, studies by the SRG group in Deloitte show that attendances can improve by up to 30% with the introduction of better facilities.

pineapple stu
25/11/2008, 12:21 PM
How good are these studies?

It's just that I've seen consultants' studies promise stuff before...

MariborKev
25/11/2008, 12:28 PM
it's just that i've seen consultants' studies promise stuff before...


Great comeback :)

I'll dig out the relevant ones.....

pete
25/11/2008, 1:17 PM
How good are these studies?

It's just that I've seen consultants' studies promise stuff before...

True. Not all consultants reports can be as good as the Genesis Report.

Candystripe
25/11/2008, 2:58 PM
The average wage in the premier league would probably be closer to €500.

It would only be a few clubs that players would have wages more than €1,000 a week.

As for what our games look like on TV, the Brandywell, the X , Sligo,Dalymount and Galway when they all have a good crowd in looks great for live games.The rest looks really bad and doesn't help promote the game to barstoolers.

Better grounds would help although can't see it happening.

Bald Student
25/11/2008, 3:14 PM
The reality is that we need everybody in our grounds.

Benno, studies by the SRG group in Deloitte show that attendances can improve by up to 30% with the introduction of better facilities.The thing is Kev, a 30% increase isn't huge. UCD's gate going from 400 to 500 or Derry's going from 2,000 to 2,500 would be an improvement but it's not an end in itself.
If you look at the 4 main provincial rugby grounds they were in no great state until very recently but they still got the crowds in and, aside from Croker, the GAA grounds are all one stand and 3 big, uncovered terraces.

I think the absence of alcohol is at least as big a factor as the state of the grounds but that the general cloud of doom that hangs over the league is the biggest factor of all.

paul_oshea
25/11/2008, 3:47 PM
yes, we want them (we being the league - I personally have given up on them)

If we had a ground breaking new marketing campaign that got people into the grounds for the first time ever, there's nothing to make a floating fan come back again. They might get lucky and get a cracker but more than likely they'll sit in uncomfortable seats, or stand on unsafe terracing and have to queue up at a van if they want chips and a coke. Remember that the people who go to LOI games at the moment don't care how ****ty the ground is, but we're a tiny minority, and we're not the people the league needs to attract.

My own personal opinion is that until alcohol is widely available at LOI grounds, we've no chance.

I'm not so sure its necessarily down to grounds facilities or lack of, i mean in comparison to GAA grounds around the country Dalymount, richmond, shelbourne, terryland,showgrounds(easily as good as its gaa counterpart), (only ones ive been) or turners cross(from the telly) are well up there apart from actual slabs of concrete around the pitch yet they still get huge crowds.

I do think that might be some people looking for a different reason as to why attendances are low or at least not as high as they could be/should be.

pete
25/11/2008, 4:41 PM
A crap ground that has a big crowd (GAA Championship) will attract more people to games. A crap empty ground attracts only the diehards.

At the risk of appearing biased Turners Cross is the best run match day when include the full package of facilities of th grounds I have been to. Dalymount would get it but only has 1 side to the ground & horrible if away fans allocated the Connaught Street side. The Brandywell is good but let down by other side of the ground.

Rugby gets big crowds as facilities improving for Leinster & Munster plus they win most matches. Connacht appear to have poor facilities but only get capacity (it is small anyway) when big Irish teams in town.

bennocelt
25/11/2008, 5:07 PM
yes, we want them (we being the league - I personally have given up on them)

My own personal opinion is that until alcohol is widely available at LOI grounds, we've no chance.

yeah i understand the LOi does need these fans but as others have pointed out some Ga grounds are far worse and yet people pay to watch that muck
-

i def agree with your second point - the dog racing ground in my town does great business simply due to the late bar - most that go haven't a clue about dogs and stand for most of the whole gig chatting to friends (few seating arrangements there as well!!!), do the odd bet but all have a good time - its well known in the town for a good night out - so yeah would love if LOI grounds at something similar

pete
25/11/2008, 8:22 PM
yeah i understand the LOi does need these fans but as others have pointed out some Ga grounds are far worse and yet people pay to watch that muck.

There is no foreign bog ball so people will get their annual live fix by attending a few games in the summer. Bogball league attendances for smaller counties are as bad any LOI side.

irishultra
08/12/2008, 2:09 AM
There is no foreign bog ball so people will get their annual live fix by attending a few games in the summer. Bogball league attendances for smaller counties are as bad any LOI side.

ur real great aren't ya??? clown. that isnt even funny and is ignorant.

Raheen
08/12/2008, 9:25 AM
Rugby gets big crowds as facilities improving for Leinster & Munster plus they win most matches. Connacht appear to have poor facilities but only get capacity (it is small anyway) when big Irish teams in town.

Connacht facilities may be poor when compared to Leinster or Munster but compared to most LOI grounds they are top class. Lack of seating is the main problem but that's not so much a big deal, is it? There's proper toilet facilities, a car park, a bar, food and cover for most fans. A state-of-the art gym for the team as well as facilities for the dreaded corporate entertainment.

Despite **** poor perfromances, crazy match scheduling, live TV coverage and occasional clashes with GUFC, attendances have held up, circa 2400 last season. It pulls in the kids and merchandise sales are high.

Also, rugby games tend to be well promoted in all media especially locally.

The key difference between Magners League rugby and LOI is that you're guaranteed top-class players every week. Obviously in Connacht's case, they tend to be on the visiting side. :D

Mad Moose
09/12/2008, 2:24 PM
loi has better players tho, or at least the better players in LOI are far superior to BSP.

Maybe the better players are better but I wouldn't go as far as far superior at all. I've seen quite a bit of Blue Square Premier and North and South football. Burton Albion for example are on the verge of league football and some of the players would not be out of place at a much higher level which is where the club with is new build Pirelli Stadium and decent squad is headed. Havant and Waterlooville whom I see quite a bit of are struggling in the Blue Square South but there are players there that would take the League of Ireland by storm. The standard of football is very very high. The quality of player is actually quite good.

I don't think you can compare the leagues in terms of level.It comes down to available population and while the numbers attending the Pirelli in Burton on Trent or Westleigh Park in Havant will never be particularly high the available captive support base is enormous even for clubs at that level. That transends itself to available money to develop a squad and facilities and so the standard is obviously much better.

There's no doubt the League of Ireland has improved in terms of standard of players particularly in playing summr football but the facilities are generally poor and attending numbers continue to dwindle. Until you get the numbers in its very hard for clubs to progress addressing facilities.

holidaysong
09/12/2008, 2:41 PM
Does anyone have a link to average attendances for clubs in the BSP or even BSN or BSS?

pineapple stu
09/12/2008, 2:52 PM
www.European-Football-Statistics.co.uk

holidaysong
09/12/2008, 2:57 PM
Burton Albion for example are on the verge of league football and some of the players would not be out of place at a much higher level which is where the club with is new build Pirelli Stadium and decent squad is headed.

That's a very nice ground they have.

[Pictures here (http://www.freewebs.com/tims92/og008burtonalbion2.htm)]


www.European-Football-Statistics.co.uk

Thanks! :)

Sumac
09/12/2008, 3:30 PM
In Ireland the first sport for people attending live matches is GAA. In the UK it is football. People will row in behind their local club in England if they are doing well, people follow their county in Ireland if things are going well.

Football/soccer might have the highest participation in this country but people do not really follow it - They only follow the big four and Celtic on TV.
For example a guy at work here claims he has never seen a good soccer match live, but he has only ever gone to 4 or 5. A few Irish game and a few games across the water. The likes of him does not have enough knowledge to appreciate a decent game. There are plenty like him who think that the only real football is that which Sky sports tell you is good.

Rovers1
10/12/2008, 5:47 PM
ur real great aren't ya??? clown. that isnt even funny and is ignorant.

i call it bogball too, dont know why your getting so offended?

Buller
10/12/2008, 5:59 PM
ur real great aren't ya??? clown. that isnt even funny and is ignorant.

Whats wrong with calling it bogball?!

John83
10/12/2008, 6:06 PM
Whats wrong with calling it bogball?!
I bet he has a problem with the name schtick fightin' too.

A face
10/12/2008, 8:32 PM
I bet he has a problem with the name schtick fightin' too.

Why is there anything wrong with calling stick fighting stick fighting? :eek:

irishultra
10/12/2008, 9:27 PM
fair enough but its better than the hoofball you get in ireland.:rolleyes:








P.S this is not the opinion of irish ultra, he happens to believe that a lot of the teams do actually try to play the ball on the ground in the loi. attacking mentality is not as widespread as one would like but hoofing the ball is not a common tactic.

Irish ultra just wants some ignorant people to realise to people who love and watch that game the term is ignorant and does not give credit to the skill of the players.

Réiteoir
10/12/2008, 10:39 PM
Does anyone have a link to average attendances for clubs in the BSP or even BSN or BSS?

http://tonykempster.co.uk/gridsindex.htm

Much more detailed stats and such

Cymro
12/12/2008, 12:54 PM
The strength in depth of English football is so high because it's their national sport and they have a tradition there. Same as we in Wales get crowds in thousands to watch semi-pro level rugby, because people turn out to support their village/town in the national sport.

I have watched several Conference games over the years (though thankfully none with Swansea) and it is a much better standard than you'd think. Most of the teams are professional nowadays, many of them could more than hold their own in the lower reaches of the football league itself. Teams such as Oxford, Cambridge, York, Torquay, Exeter etc - all formerly 'big' football league teams that have struggled to get back out of that league, which I think speaks volumes for its strength in depth. Wrexham could well join them if they don't get out at their first attempt.

Haven't seen so much of the BSN or BSS, although I've watched Newport County once or twice the last couple of seasons. The crowds, facilities (and to a lesser degree playing standards) experience a bit of a drop-off there compared to the BSP and are more similar to what you might consider non-league level. There are still some good teams there though.

Incidentally I'd disagree with the £800p/w average wage figure given for BSP teams. Wrexham fans tell me their best players are on that, but that their average wage is closer to £500.

irishultra
12/12/2008, 1:08 PM
I'd s the Welsh league is better than conference in England, well at least the best team in Wales would be top 5 in conference. LOI would be about League One standard/conference standard.

And also if anything I would say LOI would have a greater number of proper good players playing in the League, because it stands to reason. loi players don't join conference or league two sides generally.

pineapple stu
12/12/2008, 1:12 PM
I'd s the Welsh league is better than conference in England
Not a hope in hell.

Teams like Merthyr and Newport have stayed in the Ryman League rather than join the Welsh league, for example.

You can't say a part-time league with crowds of under 300 average is better than a largely full-time league with crowds of about 2000 average.

Cymro
12/12/2008, 1:13 PM
The best teams in the Welsh premier would be doing pretty well to survive in the Conference in my view, but most of the teams in the league would probably be around BSN/BSS standard. I personally think the LOI is about the same level as the BSP, perhaps the top teams would be more League One/Two due to the money they get from European runs but most teams in Ireland are semi-pro and I'd have reservations about their ability to beat Conference teams. I don't profess to be any great expert on Irish football though, so take my opinion with a pinch of salt if you will.

Stu, Newport are in the BSS, not Ryman League, Merthyr are in the 'British Gas Southern League Premier'. Also I do think that attendances aren't everything. Newport regularly get over 1,000 but I don't believe they're a better team than quite a few Welsh premier teams, in fact games between Newport and the Welsh Premier teams have always been close despite the disparity in terms of average attendance.

holidaysong
12/12/2008, 1:18 PM
Check out Sgorio Cymru on S4C on a Saturday evening to see what the LOW is like.. I watched TNS vs. Rhyl live last week and the standard was pretty bad - probably no better than LOI first division. The crowd was also a measley 750 for a top of the table clash.

pineapple stu
12/12/2008, 1:18 PM
Stu, Newport are in the BSS, not Ryman League.
Sorry; those leagues keep changing!


Also I do think that attendances aren't everything.
Agree attendances aren't everything, which is why I brought in full-time v part-time. Not very well up on my Welsh football, so I'll bow to your superior knowledge, but I'm happy my post is in essence correct (and you've agreed, I think).

Cymro
12/12/2008, 1:50 PM
Yeah, I agree with you that the Welsh premier is not generally speaking BSP standard. Interesting to note that TNS are full time on average attendances of around 300. I haven't a clue how they do it, but somehow they make the numbers add up. I guess they probably pay pretty basic wages, probably no more than £300 p/w, and make up the deficit in European and domestic prize money and sponsorship.

pineapple stu
12/12/2008, 1:52 PM
They're bankrolled by Total Network Solutions though, aren't they? Or at least, the former owner (who sold out I think?)