Trapattoni - Questionable?

[4tothefloor]

I'm just wondering am I the only one who thinks Trapattoni isn't what he's cracked up to be? His decisions so far have been very strange and mind boggling at times. His football is negative and team/squad selections more than questionable. Andy Reid/Joey O'Brien aside, the fact that Darron Gibson is starting is an absolute joke. Glenn Whelan is not international standard. Andy Keogh is poor and again, not good enough to be anywhere near the team. Far better players are being left out of not only the team, but the squad.

Yes we have 7 from 9 points but all against C/D class international sides. I'd love to be enthusiastic about the guy but I've been around the game long enough to see through the cracks. He's no Jack Charlton I'm afraid. I think our current group position is false and going on current team selections and performances, I fully expect us to be exposed next season by Bulgaria and Italy. I cannot see this side getting results there, or in Cyprus for that matter.

So far I don't rate the guy and I fear that the stuff that the Redbull Salzburg fans were saying about him are beginning to ring through. Anyone else worried about some of the stuff that's going on?

[L37Ultra]

Anyone else worried about some of the stuff that's going on?

No not me anyways.

[irishfan86]

Definitely some questionable selections, but if you're worried about him being negative, then you should have been worried from the start.

He plays that Italian defensive system, and that was never going to change when he took over our team.

I like the fact that he picks who he considers to be our best players, rather than players who are playing for their clubs (even if I disagree with some of these players).

One of his best moves so far has been to use O'Shea as a centre-half alongside Dunne. This partnership is playing wonderfully, and is a huge part of our success to date (had a bad night against Poland though).

Decisions to play guys like Folan also impress me. A lot of people on here would have told you he was a **** nobody player for Hull, but he was one of our classier players on Wednesday, no doubt about it. He showed that he's more than just a big man. He looked very intelligent and had good passing and a great first touch.

I wouldn't say I'm 100% behind all of his decisions, but at least there is a method to his selections, and we're getting some consistency as far as selection and strategy.

Miles ahead of Staunton's "lottery" selection policy where we had the likes of Alan "Usain Bolt" O'Brien and Joey "Kiss me I'm Irish" Lapira.

Not convinced he's picking the right players, but all top managers seem to make selections that the majority disagree with- their ability to see what we cannot is what makes them the best.

[Crosby87]

I understand the concerns but it is a useless debate IMO. They are not firing him, he is not quitting, and his body of work suggests he get the benefit of the campaign to be judged on. Even if they switched managers at this point, who would they hire?
Let me guess, Stephen Ireland could manage the team while scoring goals and getting his nails done at the same time better than anyone who ever saw a pitch.
I heard Stephen Ireland doesnt sleep, he just waits......

[4tothefloor]

I understand the concerns but it is a useless debate IMO. They are not firing him, he is not quitting, and his body of work suggests he get the benefit of the campaign to be judged on. Even if they switched managers at this point, who would they hire?
Let me guess, Stephen Ireland could manage the team while scoring goals and getting his nails done at the same time better than anyone who ever saw a pitch.
I heard Stephen Ireland doesnt sleep, he just waits......
Stephen Ireland is not an issue as he exited the scene before Trapattoni and has never played for him.

My issue with Trapattoni is that he's selecting players who are clearly sub standard for this level. We're just about getting away with it now (actually we're not as Poland destroyed the midfield, and Poland are not a great side) but against the better sides we're going to be exposed. Badly. His treatment of Andy Reid is Houllier-esque - piggish and unnecessary. The over-looking of Lee Carsley is also baffling. How Andy Keogh is in the squad ahead of Daryl Murphy or Owen Garvan doesn't make sense either. Keith Andrews has just made the squad, yet Darron Gibson, a reserve with zilch experience not only makes squads, but starts....and is so far out of his dept it isn't funny. I get the impression that Trapattoni doesn't watch games in the UK and has basically picked his selections from what he's seen himself in Senior and B internationals. I for one have pegged back my expectations anyway after the goings on of the last few months

[Crosby87]

Stephen Ireland is not an issue as he exited the scene before Trapattoni and has never played for him.

You either have never read anything on this website, or you need to adjust your sarcasm meter.

[tetsujin1979]

Every manager is questionable, people question Fergie's team selection constantly, even though he's been there and done that
One bad result does not make Trapattoni a bad manager, it's how he reacts to it that will make him a good or bad manager

[irishfan86]

I'm just going to throw this out there- I think Keogh is a talented player, and may be a forward option for us somewhere down the line, but the guy is NOT A WINGER, not in a million years.

The same way that McShane may be an okay centre-half, but he should never be a fullback.

Andy Reid isn't a winger, but if the only way we can accomodate him is on the outside, I say, why not?

He's shown that he can do a job for us there before, give him a go.

Beginning to doubt he'll even get an appearance in this campaign though.

[Claret Murph]

Lads
I know some are worried and I can see why , but Trap is an A1 class manager just keep behind him and everything will be fine in the end and we can all look forward to a trip to SA on the back of him .

We have to back him ...........

[irishfan86]

I'm not calling for his head.

Some of his decisions have been good, some have been bad.

We're hardly going to praise Trap for common sense decisions like Duff, Keane, Dunne, and Given in the starting lineup.

The discussion and debate will always be related to those players who are not necessarily guaranteed a spot for various reasons.

Here is a brief look at some of Trap's questionable inclusions:

O'Shea has been much maligned over the years, and it is only really this campaign that I have noticed the criticism almost disappear completely. He doesn't always play for United, but placing O'Shea in the centre of defence has been one of Trap's best moves. Hardly mentioned in the media or this forum.

Kilbane has always had his doubters, and I have been one of them at times. I love the man's character, but if I'm being 100% honest, he still scares me ****less at times. Still, with no clearly better option, nobody has been critical of him playing at left full.

McShane is a centre-half being played at fullback for both club and country. At least he's getting games at Hull, but you really never know what you're going to get from him. There's no questioning his guts or commitment, but his questionable decision making, lack of pace, and the fact that he's playing out of position all make him hard to 100% justify when we have the likes of Joey O'Brien and Foley to choose from.

Whelan- Above average performances against crap opposition and he's now a guaranteed starter. Even if he is as good as Trap thinks, it can't be good for his match sharpness and fitness to be riding the pine with Stoke. Questions are rightly raised- not as good a tackler as Carsley, not as creative as Andy Reid...is he the better overall player, or is it just a matter of being highly effective in Trap's system?

Gibson- There's definitely potential here, but he's simply not ready for this level yet. Perhaps if he was getting regular football he could rapidly be capable of this, but going from reserve team football against Hull reserves to playing Italy is simply too big a gap so I hope he gets a loan move or breaks through at United (GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!).

Keogh- never a winger in a million years. At this stage he should be 4th or lower in the striker pecking order.

Folan- Even though he played well, his selection for the friendly was questionable given that he isn't getting much playing time with Hull. This was a gamble worth taking, and he really looks like he could be a solid option for us in this campaign. He looks a real team player, and a very intelligent footballer overall. It's only one game, but I was really impressed.

Anyway, these are some of Trap's questionable decisions.

Kilbane and O'Shea are not being questioned now, because we don't have much in the line of alternatives, and in fairness to them, they have done well apart from this Poland game.

The centre of midfield is barely functional at best, and there isn't an obvious solution. I love Andy Reid, but I don't think he can play alongside Whelan without us getting ripped apart.

In fact, with the midfielders we have, I'm not sure Reid could play as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2.

I'm hoping Trap eventually decides to use Reid on the wings instead or on a rotation basis with McGeady, and I'm hoping that Andrews is given the start alongside Whelan when our campaign resumes in the new year.

My formation for our next game:

--------------Given------------

Finnan-----Dunne---O'Shea---Kilbane (when will Finnan be back anyway?)

McGeady---Whelan---Andrews---Duff

-------Keane--Doyle---------

Would be fine with Andy Reid coming in for McGeady, or Folan coming in for Doyle.

That lineup looks pretty strong, with my only serious worry being Kilbane at left full.

[bennocelt]

I'm just wondering am I the only one who thinks Trapattoni isn't what he's cracked up to be? His decisions so far have been very strange and mind boggling at times. His football is negative and team/squad selections more than questionable. Andy Reid/Joey O'Brien aside, the fact that Darron Gibson is starting is an absolute joke. Glenn Whelan is not international standard. Andy Keogh is poor and again, not good enough to be anywhere near the team. Far better players are being left out of not only the team, but the squad.


So far I don't rate the guy and I fear that the stuff that the Redbull Salzburg fans were saying about him are beginning to ring through. Anyone else worried about some of the stuff that's going on?


ha ha well i was one of about 3 - yeah there was 3 of us - from the start who didnt want him - but i said i might as well wait in the long grass - when we wont qualify (from a dead easy group as well!)

I mean you can look at a cV or you can look at what you are seeing from you one eyes - last three jobs he had were a joke and it told a lot that salzburg fans were delighted to be shot of him, his Italian team was regularly pelted and, in Munich he was a source of ridicule -

enjoy the beautiful football under Mr Trap

(did you enjoy Leo Beenhakker's Poland - why didnt the FAI go after him - he is a master of the game)

But its only a friendly - so see ya later!:)

[livehead1]

Has anyone actually thought how many times we had great results in friendly matches only to fail to perform in the qualifiers. I can remember beating Sweden and Denmark 3 and 4 nil respectively under Staunton. By the same degree, you can't read anything into perfoming poorly in friendlies, providing we continue to pick up the points in the qualifiers.

[eirebhoy]

We're just about getting away with it now (actually we're not as Poland destroyed the midfield, and Poland are not a great side) but against the better sides we're going to be exposed.
I think people are going a bit ott. Poland certainly didn't destroy midfield. It was a pretty even contest in midfield I thought. Whelan sat back in the first half and I thought Gibson started very well but faded. Gibson then sat back in the 2nd half and Whelan was actually heavily involved. There was some good play by us. I'm not saying we played well. Jesus every time out defence had the ball there was no midfielder offering themselves. Certainly not as bad in midfield as we were against Cyprus though when the central midfielders didn't seem to want much of the ball at all.

I actually think, if Whelan put in that performance beside S.Reid he'd be getting good reviews. We just need a playmaker. Every team needs a playmaker to be succesful imo. Yet A.Reid and Garvan were sitting at home. I watch Celtic every week. The difference in Scott Brown when he's playing beside Crosas or Donati compared to Hartley or Robson is huge. He's probably playing the same way but a playmaker compliments his game so much better.

[Reality Bites]

Lads that was the worst Irish Team in Living Memory -YOU CAN'T MAKE SILK PURSES OUT OF SOWS EARS.

We need an Alchemist not a world class manager.

[drummerboy]

I have to agree with Irishfan86 about Andy Keogh. I think he has a future with Ireland but as a striker. His workrate is phenomenal, he just needs to improve his finishing. Trap is not doing him any favours playing him on the wing.

Stephen Reids injury is a massive blow to our hopes of qualification. Had we had him for the rest of this season I would expect us to get 2nd place at the very least. Traps biggest dilemma is who to play with Whelan in midfield. Just wondering would he consider John O’Shea there if Finnan is back and playing McShane in the centre with Dunne. Its a decision that will define his tenure as manager of the Republic of Ireland.

[eirebhoy]

Lads that was the worst Irish Team in Living Memory -YOU CAN'T MAKE SILK PURSES OUT OF SOWS EARS.
Just to field a team on paper from what was available...

---------------- Given ----------------
Foley ---- O'Shea --- Dunne --- Kilbane
---------------- Carsley --------------
-------- A.Reid --------- Garvan ------
Duff ----------------------------- Hunt
----------------- Doyle ---------------

On paper it's a mile away from the worst Irish team in recent years. With Finnan, S.Reid, McGeady and Keane to come back there's no doubt we should be better than Bulgaria.

[tetsujin1979]

Lads that was the worst Irish Team in Living Memory -YOU CAN'T MAKE SILK PURSES OUT OF SOWS EARS.

We need an Alchemist not a world class manager.
worse than losing 5-2 against Cyprus away in a qualifier?
worse than drawing 1-1 against Cyprus at home in a qualifier?
worse than needing an injury time winner against San Marino away in a qualifier?
worse than drawing 0-0 with Liechtenstein away in a qualifier?
etc, etc, etc

[Reality Bites]

worse than losing 5-2 against Cyprus in a qualifier?
worse than drawing 1-1 against Cyprus at home?
worse than needing an injury time winner against San Marino?
worse than drawing 0-0 with Liechtenstein?
etc, etc, etc

Yes - Wednesdays team was worst than players used in those games!

[eirebhoy]

Yes - Wednesdays team was worst than players used in those games!
Do you think people would be complaining if that team on Wednesday was the best we had available? Most of the players on Wednesday did the best they could. The fact is we could have fielded a better team.

[back of the net]

I'm just going to throw this out there- I think Keogh is a talented player, and may be a forward option for us somewhere down the line, but the guy is NOT A WINGER, not in a million years.

The same way that McShane may be an okay centre-half, but he should never be a fullback.

Andy Reid isn't a winger, but if the only way we can accomodate him is on the outside, I say, why not?

He's shown that he can do a job for us there before, give him a go.

Beginning to doubt he'll even get an appearance in this campaign though.

would agree with everything you say irishfan esp the keogh comments

when i was leaving the stadium on wed nite - i was saying to the mates - who am i to question trap after all he has done in football but some of his decisions are quite simply mind boggling. And tbh om sure an awful lot of ye had the same thoughts after it as well.

no matter how succesful the guy is , i cannot comprehend for the life of me why he is playing reserves in the team... it just does not make any sense

that is not a knock at gibson/whelan but they are reserve players..its just a fact , and hence should not be in an international side until they are playing first team footie

i would be very interetsted to know what advice brady is giving trap and the 2 lads.

Also does any1 know how many games trap has been to see the irish lads play in the prem?
i know tardelli and brady go, but how many has the trap been to?

[third policeman]

It's extremely difficult to criticise Trapp given his career achievements, but if we were inhibited by our comparative lack of experience / knowledge / judgement we would not be on this site in the first place.

I was not happy with Trapp's appoinment. He's a big name with a big reputation, but was he the sort of prescription we needed after the insane chaos of the Staunton era? We seemed to be going from one extreme to the other. (to quote Yeats, "The best lack all conviction whilst the worst are full of passionate intensity".) It was more about the FAI doing public penance for the Staunton appointment rather than looking objectively at Irish football and working out what kind of direction we should be heading in. If we had had a crop of established quality Premiership players who were underperforming and needed whipping into shape then he may have been the ideal appoinment, but we didn't.

Trapp's approach is ruthlessly pragmatic. It is focused on devising a system that will get us through qualification, using players who are totally programmed to operate in that system. The system itself reflects a number of assumptions and perhaps also some of Trapp's own core convictions

The assumptions seem to be:

1) Ireland is not blessed with a wealth of creative talent so its about getting the most out of what we have.

2) Ireland's inherent stengths are commitment, physicality and a capacity to stifle and frustrate more technically gifted opponents

3) Ireland have some dangerous wide players and effective forwards. Rely on the wide channels to create scoring opportunities and set the rest of the team up to contain and defend.

I think that this analysis is flawed because the first two assumptions are not competely true.

We have more decent players than Trapp, Tardelli and Brady initially believed, but many happen to be playing outside The Premiership.

We are not a poor man's England. We have always produced good technical players and continue to do so. Our playing style should reflect and build on this aspect of our footballing tempremant. I think McCarthy is the only Irish manager of recent times who recognised this and had us playing real football.

Looking at the game on Wednesday, I think Beenhacker would have been a more sympathetic and progressive Irish manager. He would certainly not have chosen to ignore the talents of Reid, he would be looking to utilse and develop the potential of footballers like Foley, Garvan, McCann, Fahy, St Ledger, McCarthy. He would not entertain the delusion that the likes of McShane, Folan, Whelan, Bruce, etc will evet be effective international footballers. He would acknowledge that forward players like Keane and Doyle are not best served by a rigid 4-2-4 system with their supply coming almost exclusively from the flanks. Both of these strikes thrive on intelligent perceptive passes played either to their feet or into channels in front of them. He might even be able to appeal to the fragile psychology of Stephen Ireland and convince him that he would be the fulcrum of an exciting, adventurous and appealing style of play that would give him the recognition and fulfillment that he cherishes.

Trapp is a vastly experienced and talented coach, but I dont think he was or is what Irish football ideally needs. Looking ahead Owen Coyle is achieving great things at Burnley and playing open, attractive and progressive football. I think we should be keeping an eye on him for the future.

[Reality Bites]

Do you think people would be complaining if that team on Wednesday was the best we had available? Most of the players on Wednesday did the best they could. The fact is we could have fielded a better team.

How much better - apart from players missing who have we got - I'll agree on Andy Reid - but who else Carsley is too old, Garven untested at this level..

[ifk101]

It's extremely difficult to criticise Trapp given his career achievements .....

But you've given it a lash anyways. :D

From what I can read your criticism is based on;
1.) the fact that you didn't fancy Trapattoni as a manager for us after the shambles of Stan and, more interesting,
2.) your assumption that Trapattoni seems to be making assumptions about Irish footballers in general.
3.) your assumption that Beenhakker would have picked a different team for a friendly game and that he could make S. Ireland's hair grow back, and finally
4.) Owen Coyle is greater than Trapattoni because Burnley are having a run of form on Sky Sports.

If Stan was given a qualification campaign to do his worse, why not let Trapattoni get on with his job and let's see where he can take us? What have we got to lose? It's not like we are regular WC or EC qualifiers. Give the man a chance and leave the OTT stuff to Dunphy.

[Claret Murph]

4.) Owen Coyle is greater than Trapattoni because Burnley are having a run of form on Sky Sports.

Give the man a chance and leave the OTT stuff to Dunphy.


Well said ifk101
Owen is doing a good job with Burnley at the moment but after the first two games of the season people wanted his head on a block in Burnley .

As for Dunphy well he is a clown we all know this he is just a laugh to listen to him go on .

Say what ever you want about Trap and his team they have a job to do and thank goodness they will not listen to internet know alls who no nothing about how to run a football nation ...........

[back of the net]

From what I can read your criticism is based on;

4.) Owen Coyle is greater than Trapattoni because Burnley are having a run of form on Sky Sports.


It's not like we are regular WC or EC qualifiers. Give the man a chance and leave the OTT stuff to Dunphy.[/
.

i dont how u got point 4 from 3rd policemans post - from what i see he said we should look to him for the FUTURE - nothing about the him managing ireland now or being greater than trap



every1 wants and is going to give him a chance of course -but we are just questioning some of his current and past decisions that dont make sense. there is nothing OTT about doing that.

[third policeman]

Well said ifk101
Owen is doing a good job with Burnley at the moment but after the first two games of the season people wanted his head on a block in Burnley .

As for Dunphy well he is a clown we all know this he is just a laugh to listen to him go on .

Say what ever you want about Trap and his team they have a job to do and thank goodness they will not listen to internet know alls who no nothing about how to run a football nation ...........

I didn't for one second imagine that my opinions would register with Trapp or anyone esle in a position of influence. I'm quite happy to share my thoughts with "internet know alls" like our goodselves.

[eirebhoy]

How much better - apart from players missing who have we got - I'll agree on Andy Reid - but who else Carsley is too old, Garven untested at this level..
Republic of Ireland vs Czech Republic: Henderson, Kelly, McShane, O'Shea, Finnan, Andy Reid (Quinn 72), Carsley, Douglas, Kilbane (Alan O'Brien 79), Duff, Keane.

Carsley too old and couple of players above untested too. That must be a worse lineup than last night. ;)

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we didn't dominate the midfield against Poland if we played Carsley, Reid and Garvan together.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not so much fussed about reserves playing but I still think that we're just not using our best players even for the rigid roles that Trap wants.

If Trap has a system he insists on using that's no big deal for me but I fail to see how Andy Keogh can be seen as a right sided midfielder.

[Stuttgart88]

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we didn't dominate the midfield against Poland if we played Carsley, Reid and Garvan together.I just poseted in another thread that the best Irish midfield performance I've seen at any level in years was at St. Mary's where we played a 3 man midfield of Garvan, Stephen Quinn & JJ O'Toole. We had a pretty poor showing upfron in that game though.

I think we need to keep Duff in the side, and we need to keep Keane & Doyle in the team too.

However, I can see a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 working.

[Noelys Guitar]

I didn't for one second imagine that my opinions would register with Trapp or anyone esle in a position of influence. I'm quite happy to share my thoughts with "internet know alls" like our goodselves.

You raised some valid points so don't worry about the name callers. We have yet to play our two group rivals and only then will we know how good or bad we are. If we play Italy and Bulgaria with the starting eleven that played against Cyprus (with two of our midfielders playing reserve team football)then we will struggle to get one point from the two games. The Italians especially will exploit Kilbane and McShane ruthlessly. And going a goal down to the Italians will mean game over. Hopefully Finnan will return from injury and that will make a big difference. If Whelan and Gibson improve enough in the coming months then draws at least are possible. But if both players are still playing reserve football then we are heading for null points from the two crucial games.

[geysir]

Hunt entering on the hour mark has the effect of giving the team a jump start. Trap has an evident reluctance in the competitive games to change things on the field even when some players are visibly running on fumes.

[Noelys Guitar]

Hunt entering on the hour mark has the effect of giving the team a jump start. Trap has an evident reluctance in the competitive games to change things on the field even when some players are visibly running on fumes.

I hope Keogh is not ahead of Hunt in the pecking order. Duff/McGeady missing or taken off with Keogh starting/coming on as first choice sub. Hunt changed the game for us the other night.

[eirebhoy]

"My intention is not to bring back Carsley or Reid because the players in those positions played well for me.

"At the moment, I know Carsley, Andy Reid, and Steven Reid. It's okay. When I took over I first learned that they were injured or other players did not want to come back so I said 'stay'.

"We built another team, another squad, they came to us with enthusiasm and they wanted to play for Ireland. They deserve respect. At the moment, I cannot go back because of my idea, I believe in the young players and I believe they are improving.

"Alex Ferguson believes in Gibson, and against Poland, Whelan was one of the best players on the pitch."

[John83]

I trust him. He knows what he's doing. I've seen the keyboard warriors question consistently successful managers for years. They don't know ****. Will we qualify? I don't know. We don't have a great team. Central midfield has been a problem for a while - grey haired stopgaps or raw potential since Keane retired. Left back is a problem, for all Kilbane's effort. We've been organised, effective when we need to be. Three competitive games is nothing to judge a manager on.

[ifk101]

Without doubt central midfield is an area for concern for Trapattoni but I still see what he is trying to do as a work in progress and I'm firmly of the belief that we are a much better side than we were under Stan.

It's understandable that there exists calls for players like Garvan, O'Toole, and McCann to come into the side. But past evidence has shown that it takes years rather than a couple of games for players of their age to settle into the national side. McGeady is the perfect example. Trapattoni doesn't have that time.

Based on the above you could further question why Trapattoni has gone for Gibson instead of other options available. But regardless he is trying different options in this position. Prior to the Cyprus, many of us, myself included, believed Miller would start because Trapattoni had previously played Miller and Whelan together against Serbia and Colombia. Knowledge of these games told him that that combination didn't work so he took a gamble on Gibson. Now that Gibson has had the chance to show what he can do in two games, maybe Trapattoni's opinion of the Whelan/Gibson combination has changed. Who knows, we could see a different midfield partnership against Georgia.

Also don't forget that Garvan, Rowlands and Potter have also been tested at central midfield by Trapattoni, albeit not in full internationals.

Despite his media quotes, I don't think he is ignorant to where our areas of weakness are. He's not going to come and publically criticised players, etc etc (although there is that youtube clip from his time at Bayern Munich) :D.

[SkStu]

im pretty sure we will qualify (more because of Bulgarias capitulation than much quality on our side) but i think we will be badly exposed at the finals if Trapp continues to pick these players...

i dont know, i respect Trapp and his judgement but i cant help but feel he is not making the most of what we have and he is not thinking long term.

[tetsujin1979]

I cant help but feel he is not making the most of what we have and he is not thinking long term.
He's not going to be in charge in the long term, so why should he? It's not part of his job description to prepare any up and coming players for the next manager.

[geysir]

It's more that he is thinking long term for this campaign to qualify/compete in the Finals, has faith in his current young midfield to improve to the standard he demands and just at least be capable to improve enough to do what's required as we move along the qualification campaign.
Certainly Whelan has expressed that his next task is to break into the Stoke team.

I can't say I'm convinced but more that at least it's a plan and one that the players believe in.

[SkStu]

He's not going to be in charge in the long term, so why should he? It's not part of his job description to prepare any up and coming players for the next manager.

I will be a fan long term and this is one of my concerns which i feel i should express. And i also think a manager like Trappatoni, or any manager worht his salt, should want to leave a healthy legacy as well as achieving the more immediate goal of qualification.

Do we really want to qualify for this WC only to have to go through the whole blooding/developiong process all over again straight away after? One step forward, two steps back.

[ifk101]

I will be a fan long term and this is one of my concerns which i feel i should express. And i also think a manager like Trappatoni, or any manager worht his salt, should want to leave a healthy legacy as well as achieving the more immediate goal of qualification.

Do we really want to qualify for this WC only to have to go through the whole blooding/developiong process all over again straight away after? One step forward, two steps back.

I think the next Irish manager is closely involved with the team at this moment in time ;)

[Splurge]

Fux sake, i hate all this debate about Trappatoni, here we have a legend of a manager but ppl cant seem to accept the fact that he prefers a Man Utd reserve to a sunderland reserve and a young water carrier (Whelean) to an older one, Carsley.

Judge him after the qualifiers, until then enjoy the show.

[galwayhoop]

I'm not calling for his head.

Some of his decisions have been good, some have been bad.

We're hardly going to praise Trap for common sense decisions like Duff, Keane, Dunne, and Given in the starting lineup.

The discussion and debate will always be related to those players who are not necessarily guaranteed a spot for various reasons.

Here is a brief look at some of Trap's questionable inclusions:

O'Shea has been much maligned over the years, and it is only really this campaign that I have noticed the criticism almost disappear completely. He doesn't always play for United, but placing O'Shea in the centre of defence has been one of Trap's best moves. Hardly mentioned in the media or this forum.

Kilbane has always had his doubters, and I have been one of them at times. I love the man's character, but if I'm being 100% honest, he still scares me ****less at times. Still, with no clearly better option, nobody has been critical of him playing at left full.

McShane is a centre-half being played at fullback for both club and country. At least he's getting games at Hull, but you really never know what you're going to get from him. There's no questioning his guts or commitment, but his questionable decision making, lack of pace, and the fact that he's playing out of position all make him hard to 100% justify when we have the likes of Joey O'Brien and Foley to choose from.

Whelan- Above average performances against crap opposition and he's now a guaranteed starter. Even if he is as good as Trap thinks, it can't be good for his match sharpness and fitness to be riding the pine with Stoke. Questions are rightly raised- not as good a tackler as Carsley, not as creative as Andy Reid...is he the better overall player, or is it just a matter of being highly effective in Trap's system?

Gibson- There's definitely potential here, but he's simply not ready for this level yet. Perhaps if he was getting regular football he could rapidly be capable of this, but going from reserve team football against Hull reserves to playing Italy is simply too big a gap so I hope he gets a loan move or breaks through at United (GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!).

Keogh- never a winger in a million years. At this stage he should be 4th or lower in the striker pecking order.

Folan- Even though he played well, his selection for the friendly was questionable given that he isn't getting much playing time with Hull. This was a gamble worth taking, and he really looks like he could be a solid option for us in this campaign. He looks a real team player, and a very intelligent footballer overall. It's only one game, but I was really impressed.

Anyway, these are some of Trap's questionable decisions.

Kilbane and O'Shea are not being questioned now, because we don't have much in the line of alternatives, and in fairness to them, they have done well apart from this Poland game.

The centre of midfield is barely functional at best, and there isn't an obvious solution. I love Andy Reid, but I don't think he can play alongside Whelan without us getting ripped apart.

In fact, with the midfielders we have, I'm not sure Reid could play as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2.

I'm hoping Trap eventually decides to use Reid on the wings instead or on a rotation basis with McGeady, and I'm hoping that Andrews is given the start alongside Whelan when our campaign resumes in the new year.

My formation for our next game:

--------------Given------------

Finnan-----Dunne---O'Shea---Kilbane (when will Finnan be back anyway?)

McGeady---Whelan---Andrews---Duff

-------Keane--Doyle---------

Would be fine with Andy Reid coming in for McGeady, or Folan coming in for Doyle.

That lineup looks pretty strong, with my only serious worry being Kilbane at left full.

have to say i agree with most, if not all of this post.

a couple more things i might add would be...

aiden mcGeady, he is playing him regularly and at last he looks like he may mature into a decent player - i for one have always had doubts about this happening.

also on his questionable decisions, namely mcshane and gibson, both of them are definitely second choice to finnan and s.reid but they are injured so imo he is looking to keep these lads playing a few games so if/when they are needed the transition is seemless.

on andy reid, well it is clear that trap doesn't see him as a centre midfielder in a 4-4-2 where he clearly only wants his midfielders to concentrate on protection duties.
and in his opinion if we are playing with 4 attacking players then the wide men need to be mobile types who run at teams - again not andy reid. therefore with keane and doyle doing well i can understand why he isn't starting as he does not fit into the managers game plan.

tbh if s.ireland ever grew up and decided to play for his country he wouldn't play for this manager in cm either, perhaps behind the front man or out wide but definately not cm.

another thing i like about trap (for right or wrong) is that he is using the friendlies to familarise players with each other and not to give the granny and her second-cousin-twice-removed a run which would make a fairly pointless get together totally meaningless. at least when games roll around we all have a fairly good idea who will start and where, not like the staunton-round--a-bout where any given player could play any given position on any given side depending on the pitch.

[paul_oshea]

You raised some valid points so don't worry about the name callers. We have yet to play our two group rivals and only then will we know how good or bad we are. If we play Italy and Bulgaria with the starting eleven that played against Cyprus (with two of our midfielders playing reserve team football)then we will struggle to get one point from the two games. The Italians especially will exploit Kilbane and McShane ruthlessly. And going a goal down to the Italians will mean game over. Hopefully Finnan will return from injury and that will make a big difference. If Whelan and Gibson improve enough in the coming months then draws at least are possible. But if both players are still playing reserve football then we are heading for null points from the two crucial games.

agreed.

[galwayhoop]

I will be a fan long term and this is one of my concerns which i feel i should express. And i also think a manager like Trappatoni, or any manager worht his salt, should want to leave a healthy legacy as well as achieving the more immediate goal of qualification.

Do we really want to qualify for this WC only to have to go through the whole blooding/developiong process all over again straight away after? One step forward, two steps back.

our last 4 managers;
charlton - most successiful but left nothing behind him, inherited very good squad and added to it.
mccarthy - was given time to develop a squad and left a bit behind to work with - although he was still hoping to stay on so wasn't creating a legacy for someone else.
kerr- didn't qualify, blooded some but had neither a good team to start with nor a good one after he left.
staunton - told us all he was looking down the line and got the boot half way through his term.

the simple fact is whoever is in charge has a mandate to win matches and not leave a better team behind than when he started, ideally you will want both but if you only have a short contract and an instruction to get us qualified then you can't be expected to. a manager will always be judged by his results. did eoin hand get any credit for the crop of players charlton got - i don't think so.

[third policeman]

another thing i like about trap (for right or wrong) is that he is using the friendlies to familarise players with each other and not to give the granny and her second-cousin-twice-removed a run which would make a fairly pointless get together totally meaningless. .


The problem with our centre midfield is not lack of familiarity its a lack of quality and match fitness. Likewise the problem with the attacking four formation is the formation itself. Keane and Doyle are not best served by crosses from the flanks, especially when the balls are played in and our centre midfield players are 40 yards behind the play. We have two mobile, intellgent but not physically imposing strikers who are crying out for the kind of service that could be provided by players like Andy Reid, Ireland, Garvan or even McGeady playing in a less orthodox wide position.

The frustrating thing about the Trapp system (in addition to the fact that it is not necessaily working on the evidence of Cyprus and Poland) is that it does not play to the strengths of our best players nor does it enable us to actually play all our best players.

Also I dont buy into this "its too late to integrate the likes of Garvan, McCann. O'Toole etc." We are not talking about callow teenagers like McCarthy. These guys are playing well week in week out in a competitive league. hey are more ready for international football than reserve team makeweights like Whelan, Gibson, Miller and even Andrews. When exactly do you propose giving them a chance? Its not as if the current centre midfield options are turning in world beating performances.

[OwlsFan]

I'll reserve my judgement until the campaign is over. Really missing Stephen Reid though.

[SkStu]

our last 4 managers;
charlton - most successiful but left nothing behind him, inherited very good squad and added to it.
mccarthy - was given time to develop a squad and left a bit behind to work with - although he was still hoping to stay on so wasn't creating a legacy for someone else.
kerr- didn't qualify, blooded some but had neither a good team to start with nor a good one after he left.
staunton - told us all he was looking down the line and got the boot half way through his term.

the simple fact is whoever is in charge has a mandate to win matches and not leave a better team behind than when he started, ideally you will want both but if you only have a short contract and an instruction to get us qualified then you can't be expected to. a manager will always be judged by his results. did eoin hand get any credit for the crop of players charlton got - i don't think so.

i see where youre coming from but i disagree to an extent.

Charlton - was in charge for 10 years, he is an exception. He continually evolved the team and squad members so i think his exit in 96 is exempt from any particular scrutiny in that regard.

McCarthy - blooded a crop of youngsters and blended them with some of the experienced left overs from the Charlton era. He was sacked before he got a chance to blood in the next group of youngsters, as you stated was his probably intention.

Kerr - agreed

Staunton - agreed

Trappatoni - win or bust scenario. Win (through qualification) and he may choose to take us to the next level. Bust and we are royally fcked for the foreseeable future.

As a fan, as opposed to a poster who is trying to see things as the manager does or from the perspective of the FAI who want to qualify and generate money, this is what worries me. There is no long term thinking and, while i agree with you that this doesnt bother Trappatoni, its not a particularly good plan. It should be part of any mandate from the FAI to a manager to develop the team and prepare the younger players for the years ahead. So i guess im actually laying the blame at the door of the FAI.

However, simply put, i dont think Trappatoni rates our players at all and i think he has based that on the opinions of Givens and Brady without having gone to the "bother" of checking it out for himself. Not going to see our players in action at club level is lazy and inexcusable and he is setting himself up for a pretty hard fall if things go t1ts up. But then again he can just walk away, back to his Italian villa and its no harm to him. But what about us?

The more i think about it the more concerned i am with the set up we have at the moment. I think we need our manager to be more involved and not rely on Brady and Givens and their agendas.

Do we know is Tardelli scouting?

Anyway, i accept your point and im just thinking out loud so i know you will probably disagree with what ive posted.

[galwayhoop]

The problem with our centre midfield is not lack of familiarity its a lack of quality and match fitness. Likewise the problem with the attacking four formation is the formation itself. Keane and Doyle are not best served by crosses from the flanks, especially when the balls are played in and our centre midfield players are 40 yards behind the play. We have two mobile, intellgent but not physically imposing strikers who are crying out for the kind of service that could be provided by players like Andy Reid, Ireland, Garvan or even McGeady playing in a less orthodox wide position.

i see this differently from you, i don't think the game plan is to have a barrage of crosses into the box but more an interchanging attacking 4. notice how often duff got into the box as the furthest man forward the last night, it is more feed the wide players and then the other 3 join in the attack, the two middle players sit and cover and the extra width comes from the full backs.

all i'm saying is i can understand the formation he wants to use and time will tell if it is successiful or not - i'm not saying i would employ it myself but he isn't looking for a midfield playmaker or one who constantly breaks forward (a lá frank lampard for e.g.).

in his system players like a. reid and s. ireland would not be considered for the central midfield positions.


Also I dont buy into this "its too late to integrate the likes of Garvan, McCann. O'Toole etc." We are not talking about callow teenagers like McCarthy. These guys are playing well week in week out in a competitive league. hey are more ready for international football than reserve team makeweights like Whelan, Gibson, Miller and even Andrews. When exactly do you propose giving them a chance? Its not as if the current centre midfield options are turning in world beating performances.
just as well i wasn't trying to sell that argument so!! ;)

personally i know little of those players bar snippets off highlight programmes and the odd match on TV so i can't say whether they will make the grade or not. incidentially i'm not saying whelan or gibson will either. i pretty much that miller won't anyway.

personally i think that players only establish themselves at international level through experience so would have liked one or two fresh faces involved in the middle for the game this week and was a little disappointed there was not more.

all I'm attempting to say is that for once it is good to have a semblance of continuity in the team from qualifier to friendly in order to try to establish an understanding between the players that will inevitably play*, whether they are the right players is certainly open to question. however there have been so many arguments over the years over who should and should not be involved that it is fruitless bemoaning who isn't there.

*two or 3 changes per game is fine but any more and you loose the flow imo


so i know you will probably disagree with what ive posted.
no, this is a forum for us all to express our opinions

[L37Ultra]

People who are Questioning Trappattoni havn't a clue about football to be honest.

[eagleforlife]

I get the impression that Trapattoni doesn't watch games in the UK and has basically picked his selections from what he's seen himself in Senior and B internationals. I for one have pegged back my expectations anyway after the goings on of the last few months

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.