Graham Spiers fingers Zealots as "Ireland fans"

[gspain]

In last sunday's Scottish Sunday Times. relevant parts of the article posted below and link to whole article. I have highlighted the part I have a problem with.


1) Does anybody have any photos of the protestors? The sunday times strangely didn't back up their allegation with a photo.

2) Irish shirts are not that common at Celtic games. They are much less evident than Celtic shirts at Ireland games. I haven't been to CP since Packie's testimonial but I have seen them play away a few times since then and it is rare to see an Irish shirt. I find it hard to believe that the 100 or so protestors were all from here and wearing Irish shirts.

3) I believe the protestors were threatened with having their season tickets cancelled. Maybe the club could confirm if the 100 or so protestors were from this country.

It's all to easy to finger the problems with a fringe element of the Celtic support with the label "Republic of Ireland fans".

Find another excuse Graham or just maybe look at your own fans.


http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/11/celtics-complex.html

November 11, 2008
Celtic’s complex heritage open to distortion and abuse on Armistice Day



Graham Spiers

The so-called Armistice controversy at Parkhead last weekend was a classic reminder of the political and religious complexity of Celtic. There are other clubs in Scotland and Britain who envy Celtic's colourful history and cultural make-up, which make this club a social saga as much as a football team. But Saturday in Glasgow's east end confirmed the downsides that come with such a story.

For their Armistice commemoration Celtic elected to have a minute's applause rather than a minute's silence for Europe's war dead, and the reason was obvious. The club, with some justification, dreaded the thought of a silence being violated by a small minority of dissenters. It was an anxiety, regardless of the political rights and wrongs of such protest, which stemmed from one strand of Celtic's identity, which is an anti-British cynicism rooted in Irish republicanism.

Photographs of the protestors on Saturday confirmed as much. Young men (and women} could be seen wearing Republic of Ireland shirts, and scarves which spoke of the same. In a crowd of 60,000 they maybe numbered 100, and might be cruelly categorisd as "zealots", but they are nonetheless there as a part of the Celtic tradition. And in the specific case of last Saturday they could have severely embarrassed the club.

[paul_oshea]

100 of 60,000. I am assuming Mr Spiers, isn't the sharpest tool in the box and found Maths a challenging subject.

I also fail to understand his non-flawed guesstimation of 100. :rolleyes:

[Junior]

Spiers is a good scottish sports journalist (not that many of them in Scotland). He is openly a Rangers supporter but is shunned by his fellow support for his numerous critical articles giving his views on the Ibrox faithful and their 'backward' ways.

On to this article, I am pretty sure all 100 werent wearing Rep of Ireland shirts (Spiers doesnt say they all were) but I bet some of them were. I go to Celtic Park every other week and whilst there are not 1000's of Ireland shirts on show, there are some, coupled with with plenty of GAA shirts from around the country.

Additionally, say the other 99 were wearing Celtic shirts, it doesnt mean they werent Rep of Ireland fans does it? more likely that than Scotland fans to be honest;)


I mean he doesnt come across as an Irish bashing type of guy, bearing in mind some of the articles that have been written on McGeady and McCarthy, highlighted elsewhere on this site, the following reads ok to me?

"Just as the Irish community in the USA is celebrated, or the Scots community in Canada is celebrated, so the Irish in Scotland should also be celebrated. Celtic represent the peculiar subjectivity of ethnicity. It isn't for me, you or anyone else to tell Celtic or McGeady what their ethnic make-up is. On the contrary, it is for them to inform us - as McGeady has - what their inner feelings amount to."



Irish Celtic supporters were involved in the (albeit small) protest.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/jboyle/blog/2008/11/09/protest_by_the_association_of_irish_celtic_support ers_clubs

[gspain]

I would have thought Spiers was a Celtic supporter but there you go.

He does not come across as anti Irish. However he is blaming the minority of "zealots" (codename for bigots maybe) or Republic of Ireland fans. In other words the Celtic fans were fine but a group of "zealots" who are really Irish fans let them down.

Now many Celtic fans may indeed prefer us to Scotland. However apart from Niall Quinn's testimonial and Scotland away 2003 I can't recall any Scottish Celtic fans at our games.

Now to class the 100 protestors on saturday last as Irish fans is passing the buck from their own issues. In general Celtic fans appear to be much better behaved than certain other British clubs in Europe. However they have had issues and clearly do have a minority of troublemakers. They also have an element that still do sectarian chanting - probably the same crowd who caused problems in Blackburn, Vigo and Barcelona among others.

We don't have a hooligan problem at home or abroad. We don't sing sectarian songs at our games. I think if Spiers wants to absolve the Celtic supporters from this he needs to find another target.

[Junior]

Holy fcuk Gspain get a grip....Im sure you know that Celtic fans are supposed to be paranoid....are you sure you dont have a soft spot for them?....you certainly have the paranoia credentials.

The article refers to the "celtic support" throughout, it makes one reference to Rep of Ireland jerseys (which I would wager is factually correct) and you take that to mean Spiers is trying demonise the Irish and absolve the celtic support??????

Then you go on to talk about hooliganism,sectarianism and trouble at various Celtic away games. Perhaps you should talk about Ireland fans in Paris, or at home against Israel etc...if you are going to be balanced with your comments?

In my opinion its you who is looking to offload some of his own predjudices.

[gspain]

Holy fcuk Gspain get a grip....Im sure you know that Celtic fans are supposed to be paranoid....are you sure you dont have a soft spot for them?....you certainly have the paranoia credentials.

The article refers to the "celtic support" throughout, it makes one reference to Rep of Ireland jerseys (which I would wager is factually correct) and you take that to mean Spiers is trying demonise the Irish and absolve the celtic support??????

Then you go on to talk about hooliganism,sectarianism and trouble at various Celtic away games. Perhaps you should talk about Ireland fans in Paris, or at home against Israel etc...if you are going to be balanced with your comments?

In my opinion its you who is looking to offload some of his own predjudices.

The article refers to the Celtic support in very positive terms which is fine. It however blames the 100 zealots that could cause problems for the club as being in Republic of Ireland shirts and scarves. He fails to produce any pictures - are there any? I very much doubt it. How amny of the 100 who were thretened with having their season tickets cancelled were from here? All 100 - ten, 5 I don't know but not many I'll wager. And even if they were they don't seem to be going to our games and causing trouble at them.

Perhaps you'd care to detail the arrests and problems in Paris in 2004. 40,000 travelling fans and no arrests that i'm aware of. Yes there were a few people at the Israel home game that tried to bring the Israel/Palestine political situation into a football match. The reputation and behaviour of our fans at home and abroad is miles better than that of Celtic (and Rangers too btw).

Now I'm well aware that Celtic fans by and large are impeccably behaved. there is a small minority that still causes problems. To pass off those "zealots" as Republic of Ireland fans is plainly wrong and passing the buck. Any photos of them?

They are Celtic season ticket holders so even if they are Irish and wear Irish tops to Celtic games (which I doubt) why don't they appear at Irish games and cause trouble. The club threatened to cancel their season tickets which implies they were clearly Celtic fans and season ticket holders.

I don't see how you can call this paranoia. Spiers is clearly wrong in trying to paint the minority of "zealots" as Irish fans.

Now I don't think Spiers is being deliberately anti Irish. I think he is just trying to defend Celtic fans and pass the buck. However he does blacken our fans in doing this albeit I guess accidently. It still should be challenged though and is pretty poor journalism.

[Junior]

Fair enough Gspain you have your opinion and obviously are entitled to it, perhaps my skin is just a tad thicker;). IMO the reference to Rep of Ireland jerseys doesnt really change the tone of the article or who it is directed at. Perhaps there were only a few demonstrators wearing Rep of Ireland shirts and it wasnt worthy of inclusion but as you can see from my earlier posts Irish Based supporters (AICSC) were certainly part of the demo. I also have read Spiers articles over the years and he certainly isnt one to try and paint Rangers or Celtic as better than they are or without sin!

I have seen some pics of the demo on Celtic supporters message boards (cant find them at the moment). To be honest, from memory you couldnt really see any jerseys that closely certainly not Ireland ones.

Im both a Celtic season ticket holder and Block Booker for Lansdowne, so I have no wish to benchmark one set of fans against the other in some form of petty point scoring - IMO both supports are immense, particularly on the road. With FIFA and UEFA publicly stating as such with various awards.

Celtic have a few loons amongst its support (dont all clubs and countries?) particularly with the likes of young alcohol fuelled neds, getting on to the pitch (such as against utd) and the singing of NonPC songs. I saw the same sort of thing in Paris, with a minority of Irish fans behaving liked they had just escaped from the zoo (I couldnt tell you if any were arrested but I saw them with my own eyes, which is enough for me).

For me the article is a non issue and certainly nothing for Ireland supporters to be worried about, but each to their own.

[geysir]

I saw a picture of the protesters. It was a small group of celtic fans called the "Green Brigade". They planned a walk out protest 10 minutes into the game, most accurate figures say about 60 got up, walked out and congregated out by the statue of Bro Wal. In the picture I could see 2 tricolours but no Irish shirts or scarves, there was a long banner sprawled out about chest high which would have concealed some of the protesters. picture could have been from the NOTW.
However, Spiers refers to photographs of protesters.
I can't say if he did or he didn't see Irish shirts in the photos he (claimed to have) viewed.

Essentially Spiers is accurate enough for an opinion piece when he writes "It was an anxiety, regardless of the political rights and wrongs of such protest, which stemmed from one strand of Celtic's identity, which is an anti-British cynicism rooted in Irish republicanism"
But if there were no Irish shirts then he made a serious enough mistake referring to that.
Even if there was an Irish shirt, it is not evidence of a political leaning.
Emmet would be a marked man if it was :)

When he uses the word 'zealot' he is using it in the context of it's meaning to describe those who participated in a (rightful) political protest, but one which offends the decency of the vast majority.

[gspain]

The Green Brigade can be found here

http://www.s211584331.websitehome.co.uk/index.html


I think it is safe to say that they are a Celtic fangroup first second and third. I can't find any reference to them being Ireland fans. I had a (quick)look at their photos and most of them appear to be in Celtic gear as you'd expect. They describe themselves as Celtic ultras among other things and indeed make comparisons with the Tartan Army. There are lots of political references to Ireland and they have views on a 32 county socialist republic and an independent socialist Scotland.

It is obvious therefore that Spiers is clearly factually incorrect describing these "zealots" as Republic of Ireland fans. I see he is an award winning journalist and published author (on Rangers at least) however that would poor journalism.

BTW we haven't had any alcohol fueled neds invading the pitch at Ireland games. We also haven't had any issues with non PC songs sung at our games. That is a Celtic issue. They may not be the worst offenders but we shouldn't be dragged into it.

[geysir]

It is obvious therefore that Spiers is clearly factually incorrect describing these "zealots" as Republic of Ireland fans.
It might look that way but it is still quite a few steps away from being an obvious clear fact.
Obvious clear facts need concrete evidence and Graham says he has viewed that evidence to support his facts. There were others out there by the statue who were not at the game.
A rational person would keep an open mind but still retain a measure of scepticism.


BTW we haven't had any alcohol fueled neds invading the pitch at Ireland games. We also haven't had any issues with non PC songs sung at our games. That is a Celtic issue. They may not be the worst offenders but we shouldn't be dragged into it
I would regard that we shouldn't copy into Graham Spiers 'guilt by remote association' journalism, should we? :rolleyes:

Graham's article is brought into question equating the (phantom) Ireland shirt and scarves as evidence of a political belief.

He wrote
"Photographs of the protestors on Saturday confirmed as much" (anti-British cynicism rooted in Irish republicanism)
"Young men (and women} could be seen wearing Republic of Ireland shirts, and scarves which spoke of the same".

He writes that wearing an Ireland shirt and scarf "spoke of the same", which means they spoke of "anti-British cynicism rooted in Irish republicanism".
Then I would expect that Graham would need to prove that he has seen Irish shirts and scarves in the crowd with a highly visible republican political message imprinted for all to read.
If he can do that, then he is in the clear.

[lopez]

Funny that the 'Republic of Ireland' shirts are mentioned. I have found two examples in my time that the extreme edge of Celtic fans (and not just those who want a 32 Irish/Scottish Stalinist/Maoist Republic) view the shirt as representing 'freestatism'. And that's from someone who doesn't frequent Parkhead much.

Coupled with our friend outside Croke Park last year, it's safe to say that many of these people haven't a scooby doo what they're on about. That probably includes this Spiers bloke, Pullitzer prize or not.