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liam88
20/10/2003, 7:03 PM
Do you think Belfast Celtic should reform?
Or arn't you really bothered?
Would they fit in today?-they were an AMAZING club in their time but in a way you could say football has developed a lot since then, would the principals and the support still be there now that a shopping center stands above where 'paradise' used to stand?
I for one would like to see it, especially to see someone give L*nfield a stuffing four times a season ;)

Paddy Ramone
20/10/2003, 7:15 PM
Would they play in the Irish League or League of Ireland? They'd also have to compete with Cliftonville for the Nationalist and Catholic support in Belfast. Although many of the Catholics in West Belfast consider Cliftonville a North Belfast club and want their own side again.

liam88
20/10/2003, 7:43 PM
Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Would they play in the Irish League or League of Ireland?
Probably the Leagye of Ireland, return to the old hunting ground. Something to spice up the league would be very nice :)


They'd also have to compete with Cliftonville for the Nationalist and Catholic support in Belfast.
Although many of the Catholics in West Belfast consider Cliftonville a North Belfast club and want their own side again.
Mabye a merger like ICT in Scotland, it would solve any finance problems for both teams and unite Catholics throughout Belfast. They could even form once the peace deal goes through (hopefully very soon) and that would be great. 'Cliftonville Celtic'....like the sound?

Paddy Ramone
20/10/2003, 7:57 PM
I don't know about a merger. Cliftonville have a proud tradition as the oldest Irish football club.

They have a very different history to Belfast Celtic. The Reds were originally a mainly Protestant amateur club up until the 1970's. It was only demographic changes during the troubles that changed this.

I don't think Cliftonville would like to lose their identity in a merged club.

Wallace Mercer had the same idea in Edinburgh for Hibs and Hearts but it wasn't accepted by the fans. Some of the Inverness Caledonian Thistle fans would prefer to have seperate teams as well.

gspain
21/10/2003, 9:19 AM
Cliftonville are a north Belfast side as has been stated.

West Belfast does have a side in the top flight - Linfield. :) Maybe their MP should go to a few games and meet his constituents. :)

Belfast Celtic were not a sectarian club. They had players of all religions playing for them as indeed did rivals Linfield at the time. Celtic went out in 1949 and Linfield only appeared to stop signing Catholics after that or around that time. They have of course signed plenty of Catholics since 1988.

Celtic are still members of the Irish League and could reform although Celtic Park is now the Park Shopping Centre (a short walk across the M1 now from windsor Park).

While it is easy to attach sectarian labels to clubs in Northern Ireland remember football is by and large non sectarian and played by both communities and clubs and the national team are open to all. Indeed the rivalries in football in Northern Ireland have nothing to do with religion eg Linfield v Glentoran, Portadown v Glenavon, Ards v Bangor etc and more to do with local pride. Linfield fans would always cheer for example if Cliftonville were beating Glentoran.

West Belfast does have Donegal Celtic playing in the first division of the Irish League now. Limerick are still the only club from the RoI to have played there. It would be great to see them do well and get into the premier division. They did try and join the LoI on a couple of occasions but were not welcomed with open arms. they now have the opportunity to play senior football in the Irish League.

Paddy Ramone
21/10/2003, 9:34 AM
It would be great to see Belfast Celtic playing Irish League football again and a renewal of their old rivalry with Linfield. Maybe now that there is a peace process in the North, Celtic might take up their rightful place as an Irish League club.

Duncan Gardner
21/10/2003, 7:17 PM
I hope you're not suggesting the team that took their place be kicked out Paddy ;)

Adding to G Spain's post, (Lisburn) Distillery are also from West Belfast- their ground was near the present Westlink.

Both Lurgan and Donegall Celtics are prepared to play in the IL. Of course, both have some silly fans, just like everyone else. Last season, a LC fan shinned up the flagpole at Seaview and pinched the Jack. The locals weren't pleased but no serious harm came of it...

pbn
22/10/2003, 2:02 PM
Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?

pbn
22/10/2003, 2:07 PM
Sorry folks. Ive fecked up. this post was meant to be in the Belfast Celtic Thread

pbn
22/10/2003, 2:08 PM
Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?

lopez
22/10/2003, 3:07 PM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I hope you're not suggesting the team that took their place be kicked out Paddy ;)
Yeah, the mighty Crusaders! They've got to be a Catholic team with a name like that, DG.:D

May as well call them Notre Dame.;)

Originally posted by pbn
Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?
Cliftonville are a Protestant club with a large Catholic following - bit like Liverpool and Everton if you believe some people. So they were allowed to stay.:D

Seriously, I think the Brandywell being in Free Derry made it impossible to play there (a burnt out bus of the Ballymena team seemed to bring things to a head). They moved to Coleraine, which was bad enough in itself if you've ever been to the town, but they found that the locals were more into marching.:) Financially, they were ****ed.

Duncan Gardner
22/10/2003, 3:17 PM
Originally posted by lopez
Yeah, the mighty Crusaders! They've got to be a Catholic team with a name like that, DG.:D

Back in 1898, that name was chosen becauseof its international image. The less-favoured alternative was 'Lilliputians' (Lilliput Street being nearby)


Cliftonville are a Protestant club with a large Catholic following

Actually, they have both nationalist and unionist fans (the latter predominantly older), but few of either even by IL standards. Portadown and Ballymena get bigger crowds. The Reds have never made any attempt to leave the IL- no point, they'd take no fans with them.


Seriously, I think the Brandywell being in Free Derry made it impossible to play there (a burnt out bus of the Ballymena team seemed to bring things to a head).


No. The Belfast unionist teams could have faced exactly the same charge- that their grounds were in flashpoint areas. Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

Plastic Paddy
22/10/2003, 3:26 PM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

Indeed, especially when you consider that the IL Premier Division now contains the Institute team from Drumahoe (in the eastern "suburbs" of Stroke City), the First Division Ballinamallard United from co. Fermanagh and the IL Second Division Dergview from Castlederg, spitting distance from co. Donegal.

Ah well, changed times. Hopefully for the better.

:D PP

Paddy Ramone
22/10/2003, 4:02 PM
Originally posted by lopez
They moved to Coleraine, which was bad enough in itself if you've ever been to the town, but they found that the locals were more into marching.:)

I think it's ironic that Coleraine's most famous player ever was a Celtic player Bertie Peacock. Peacock is a Protestant and some say an Orangeman, yet saw no problem wearing the famous hoops. I wonder are there many Celtic supporting Orangeman in Coleraine.:D Does Duncan know?

pete
22/10/2003, 4:38 PM
Derry City are the exception & I don't know why the eL would need a small Belfast team to join them.

lopez
22/10/2003, 5:53 PM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

But they didn't mind visiting Coleraine? Reading between the lines DG, you say it was discrimination one minute then try to throw the red herring in that it was because the team played in the back of beyond that sunk its involvement in the Irish League when a club from a unionist town (that was why the University of Ulster was built there and not Derry) not much nearer continued to play without qualms.

While not condoning the IL, you'd hardly expect them to fight on two fronts. That is making Unionist clubs play their games away aswell if they happened to be located in a dodgy area.

Duncan Gardner
22/10/2003, 6:40 PM
Derry is half as far again from Belfast as Coleraine is.

Aye, rereading that I'm exaggerating geographical distance as a factor, though it was present. Rather like Ferranti Thistle getting into the Scottish League instead of a higher-grade Highland club.

I'm not sure the siting of the New University is as illustrative of unionist bigotry as you suggest . Not as if we lack other examples, eh? If easy access for the likely student body was the main consideration, Armagh would have been a better choice small town than Coleraine. But of course, once all the constituent parts of NUU merged in the 1980s, the Belfast campuses attracted the majority of students, as you'd expect.

Derry in the 1960s was a small town and in pure economic terms not much more 'deserving' of a university than Coleraine.

[retires...:) ]

liam88
27/10/2003, 9:42 PM
Belfast Celtic would still be playing if it wasn't for L*nfield. 5 of the men attacked that they were unionists-does this reflect on the ignorance of the fans?

Why are they still playing after such an outrage?

Duncan Gardner
28/10/2003, 9:52 AM
Because it was 55 years ago. You might as well ask why are Germany or Japan still playing internationals?

lopez
28/10/2003, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Because it was 55 years ago. You might as well ask why are Germany or Japan still playing internationals?

Germany and Japan were punished.

How were Linfield punished? Was their ground closed for a season? Were points deducted? Was the club fined?

Duncan Gardner
28/10/2003, 11:06 AM
What are you suggesting, Lopez? That because they weren't punished in 1948, they should be now? It's accepted the Irish League acted crassly then. Sins of the fathers, and all that...

lopez
28/10/2003, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
What are you suggesting, Lopez? That because they weren't punished in 1948, they should be now? It's accepted the Irish League acted crassly then. Sins of the fathers, and all that...

I was asking if Linfield were ever punished. As you kindly answered, they weren't (I take it not even a one match ban behind closed doors or a small fine).

Perhaps liam went over the top in suggesting a life ban for Linfield, but then that is what Belfast Celtic effectively got when they were the innocent party. What would you suggest would be the appropriate punishment for a club whose fans run onto the pitch and deliberately corner and break an opponent professional's leg?

Duncan Gardner
28/10/2003, 6:31 PM
Lopez: an appropriate punishment, applying the rather more more rigorous standards of two generations on, would be games behind closed doors for a fixed period. This was actually considered for Chelsea in 1988, after the riot in their relegation play off with Middlesbrough. In the end they were allowed to keep the West Stand open. But in practice, leaving aside Linfield's domination of the IFA politburo at the time, any club thus punished would have been likely to sue if the punishment was too severe.

Davros: if you're suggesting it would be potentially dangerous for BC to reform and play games now, I'd disagree. In fact the relationship between Linfield and Cliftonville, and other teams with nationalist support, is now reasonably cordial, if not friendly. Blues fans are back at Solitude and this hasn't caused problems. And, as I mentioned, Lurgan Tic pinched the union jack from Seaview last term without starting a major incident.

Belfast Celtic lives on, but in practice Donegall Celtic would inherit their status as the main nationalist team if successful. Probably at the expense of Cliftonville.

liam88
28/10/2003, 7:20 PM
Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Because it was 55 years ago. You might as well ask why are Germany or Japan still playing internationals?

Germany and Japan commited outrages in a war-Linfield commited outrages during a football match. Mabye there's a differece, mabye not, but Belfast Celtic shouldn't have had to suffer.

Mabye not a lifelong ban but by letting them go unpunished doesn't it hint that this kind of violence and ignorant biggotory is acceptable. This wasn't a riot-there was not skermish between two sets of fans, this was blantent, unprovocked assult assult-(feel free to dissagree).

Surley football should carry on without this-mabye Linfield should so they are sorry for their 'forefathers sins' by funding a belfast celtic reformation.........logical and practical

Dodge
29/10/2003, 10:11 AM
A great thread is in the process of being hijacked by muppets here...

Ah well...

lopez
29/10/2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Dodge
A great thread is in the process of being hijacked by muppets here...
Thanks for letting us know about that Muhammad Atta.:rolleyes: Box cutters or shoe bombs today? :p

Éanna
29/10/2003, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by lopez
Thanks for letting us know about that Muhammad Atta.
leave Muhammed alone. Sound bloke apparently

lopez
29/10/2003, 2:08 PM
Originally posted by Éanna
leave Muhammed alone. Sound bloke apparently

If you need some town planning.

Getting back to the business in hand, DG, you mention Linfield's dominance of the IFA 'politburo', (I thought this was IL territory) but I don't normally say this about your offerings, but isn't that a tad simplistic. I can't imagine one club having such power over an FA, not in a democracy (if albeit an ethnic democracy) like NI. So they have the ground that NI play on, but they also need the income. By claiming the IL 'acted crassly' suggests you are offering the stock unionist/British answer to every f**k up, from the famine to '69, in Ireland and that it is: 'Sorry. We were basically a bunch of idiots. No malice intended.'

I think things run deeper than that. It is forgotten that many Linfield fans were sickened by the attack on Jimmy Jones, some unsurprisingly vowing never to return. Looking away from Linfield we see a Senator WH Wilson, president of the North West of Ireland FA, who claimed that same season that because the IFA committee had one Catholic member, it was this that ensured a NI (all-Ireland) side that had 10 RCs. Also there is one thing that stands out reading about this match, and that was a Celtic forward's observation of policemen throwing their hats in the air at the Linfield equaliser, which convinced him that there would be little protection at the final whistle. Did Linfield run the RUC aswell?

gspain
29/10/2003, 2:48 PM
A few points here before the conspiracy theories go mad.

It was Linfield supporters who attacked Jimmy Jones not the club or officials - the police actually did intervene as did his own goalkeeper to save him from a bigger beating.

Linfield were punished - can't recall exactly but I don't think they played at home again until March. Yes it probably wasn't as severe as it should have been.

Neither club adopted sectarian policies at the time - Celtic never did and Linfield almost certainly did afterwards until approx 1988.

The terms "nationalist" and "unionist" clubs are not appropriate here. this is an effort to politicise the incident

lopez
29/10/2003, 4:55 PM
Originally posted by gspain
A few points here before the conspiracy theories go mad.

It was Linfield supporters who attacked Jimmy Jones not the club or officials - the police actually did intervene as did his own goalkeeper to save him from a bigger beating.
Who's to say they were Linfield supporters. If you mean fans who turn up every week to follow the team then perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you mean the hangers on that go to high profile inter-ethnic riots such as the Linfield v Donegal Celtic game of the early nineties, then these people can hardly be termed Linfield supporters.

Regarding Linfield's culpability, Jones himself doesn't agree with you, blaming a highly inflammatory announcement by club secretary Joe Mackey who blamed Bob Bryson's injury on Jones, for the riot. Whether there was any sectarian element to this 'announcement' is doubtful seeing that Jones was protestant, but it was in hindsight stupid.

As for the police, Jones' testimony says he saw one policemen saying to the crowd: ' If you don't stop kicking him, I'll use my baton.' Is this the same RUC that went on to international fame by kneeing peaceful demonstrators in the cojones in 1969? A journalist by the name of James Kelly wrote that he witnessed the police 'standing around' doing nothing. Still we can discount this obvious Chucky's account as a pack of lies, but not so the Linfield supporter who wrote to the Irish News saying the same thing. Once again, no malice intended, just supidity?


Originally posted by gspain
Linfield were punished - can't recall exactly but I don't think they played at home again until March. Yes it probably wasn't as severe as it should have been.
Linfield had a two match ban at WP which lasted until 22nd January. But here's the twist: One game, against Ballymena United was switched from home to away, so that the away game later that April was now to be at Windsor Park. Ballymena were far from pleased with this and denied that they 'had helped out' Linfield.


Originally posted by gspain
Neither club adopted sectarian policies at the time - Celtic never did and Linfield almost certainly did afterwards until approx 1988.
What reason does Linfield give for this?


Originally posted by gspain
The terms "nationalist" and "unionist" clubs are not appropriate here. this is an effort to politicise the incident.
A ridiculous statement. Belfast was a divided city, even in these times. Both clubs were central to their communities because of their location in South-west Belfast and their founders. Belfast Celtic were a nationalist club from the start. It was they that lent Celtic Park to Winston Churchill in 1912 when he couldn't promote Home Rule at City Hall due to demonstrators. As for Linfield how many Catholics have been on the club's board? Neither club may have wished for this scenario, but that's what they got.

As for the match, so a Protestant got his leg broken instead of a Catholic, it must mean it had nothing to do with the religious/sectarian/ethnic differences between the two clubs. This sounds like the flip coin of 'its OK2BOO'. Booing the Huns at Lansdowne Road sectarian? How can it be when the player isn't a prod? Suggesting the fact that both clubs took their support from one side or the other of the political fence had no bearing on this riot is simply naive.

lopez
29/10/2003, 5:03 PM
Cheers Mr Moderator. At first I thought this was not national team stuff, but now I see we have been landed with a load of links by some nutcase from Ipswich (with links to Galway - they must be delighted) going on about his dog and her pungent culo.:rolleyes: FFS hombre!!!!

gspain
30/10/2003, 9:55 AM
Originally posted by lopez
Who's to say they were Linfield supporters. If you mean fans who turn up every week to follow the team then perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you mean the hangers on that go to high profile inter-ethnic riots such as the Linfield v Donegal Celtic game of the early nineties, then these people can hardly be termed Linfield supporters.

Regarding Linfield's culpability, Jones himself doesn't agree with you, blaming a highly inflammatory announcement by club secretary Joe Mackey who blamed Bob Bryson's injury on Jones, for the riot. Whether there was any sectarian element to this 'announcement' is doubtful seeing that Jones was protestant, but it was in hindsight stupid.

As for the police, Jones' testimony says he saw one policemen saying to the crowd: ' If you don't stop kicking him, I'll use my baton.' Is this the same RUC that went on to international fame by kneeing peaceful demonstrators in the cojones in 1969? A journalist by the name of James Kelly wrote that he witnessed the police 'standing around' doing nothing. Still we can discount this obvious Chucky's account as a pack of lies, but not so the Linfield supporter who wrote to the Irish News saying the same thing. Once again, no malice intended, just supidity?


Linfield had a two match ban at WP which lasted until 22nd January. But here's the twist: One game, against Ballymena United was switched from home to away, so that the away game later that April was now to be at Windsor Park. Ballymena were far from pleased with this and denied that they 'had helped out' Linfield.


What reason does Linfield give for this?


A ridiculous statement. Belfast was a divided city, even in these times. Both clubs were central to their communities because of their location in South-west Belfast and their founders. Belfast Celtic were a nationalist club from the start. It was they that lent Celtic Park to Winston Churchill in 1912 when he couldn't promote Home Rule at City Hall due to demonstrators. As for Linfield how many Catholics have been on the club's board? Neither club may have wished for this scenario, but that's what they got.

As for the match, so a Protestant got his leg broken instead of a Catholic, it must mean it had nothing to do with the religious/sectarian/ethnic differences between the two clubs. This sounds like the flip coin of 'its OK2BOO'. Booing the Huns at Lansdowne Road sectarian? How can it be when the player isn't a prod? Suggesting the fact that both clubs took their support from one side or the other of the political fence had no bearing on this riot is simply naive.

Point taken re Linfield supporters - agreed. I was however trying to point out that the club did not condone or do anything. I'm also not trying to justify the incident. It was sickening.

At best Joe Mackey was stupid and irreseponsible to announce that "Bob Bryson has been taken to hospital with a broken ankle" The announcement probably was a major contributing factor to the attack but a local derby with 8 men v 10 and a game that finished 1-1 with 2 goals in the last 10 minutes was a pretty passionate affair anyway.

I never justified anything based on the fact that Jones was a protestant - Bryson incidently was either Catholic or married to a Catholic (heard both) and also a former Shamrock rovers player. He only died recently aged 84 having lived in Newry.

I've no doubt the riot was sectarian but it was not a unionist/british/police conspiracy to put Celtic out of football.

Linfield did have undue influence in the corridors of power in Northern Ireland football (some say they still do). So did Shamrock Rovers for many years and indeed Dundalk for a while in the Republic not to mention Man Utd across the water. Big clubs get favours - sad but true.

It is not appropriate to pin nationalist and unionist labels on either club. They were/are football clubs albeit in nationalists or unionist areas. Many fans of one club actually went to watch the other when their won team was away as they were the big 2 at the time and Glentoran only came to real prominence when Celtic went out.

Linfield have never admitted to any sectarian policy however as they didn't have any Catholic players from approx 1950-1988 then they probably did and it is widely understood that they did. The ending of it was probably triggered by Eric Bowyer then manager i nan interview with a Linfield fanzine saying he would love to sign a Catholic but didn't think it would go down well. This was after 1988 but they probably didn't realsie that Tony Coly was catholic

lopez
30/10/2003, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by gspain
I never justified anything based on the fact that Jones was a protestant - Bryson incidently was either Catholic or married to a Catholic (heard both) and also a former Shamrock rovers player. He only died recently aged 84 having lived in Newry.
Cheers Gary. I didn't suggest you did. Apologies for this. The religion of players would be lost on most of the crowd, because they wouldn't know. Would you know the religion of all the players on your club? Besides you and I couldn't give a f*ck. However the significance of the match would not be lost on these same people.


Originally posted by gspain
I've no doubt the riot was sectarian but it was not a unionist/british/police conspiracy to put Celtic out of football.
If it was, then it was an expensive one. Belfast Celtic were the golden goose, that not even Derry City or Cliftonville could replace.


Originally posted by gspain
Linfield did have undue influence in the corridors of power in Northern Ireland football (some say they still do). So did Shamrock Rovers for many years and indeed Dundalk for a while in the Republic not to mention Man Utd across the water. Big clubs get favours - sad but true.
Clearly they did, but as we will see with Ferdinand, even big clubs will not get away with everything. In 1920 the club threatened legal action against the IL over the infamous Irish Cup semi against Glentoran, which the IL caved into. They subsequently withdrew because of the civil state of Belfast.


Originally posted by gspain
It is not appropriate to pin nationalist and unionist labels on either club. They were/are football clubs albeit in nationalists or unionist areas. Many fans of one club actually went to watch the other when their won team was away as they were the big 2 at the time and Glentoran only came to real prominence when Celtic went out.
The clubs were not affiliated to any church or political party, but it is clear that they were infiltrated by politics. Harry Midgley, a former Labour MP to Stormont (he was a vociferous supporter of the Spanish Second Republic) turned Unionist, and accused of stirring Linfield players up with 'party songs' on the day of the game, was an official of the club. Celtic's post season American tour included them walking out with the tricolour.


Originally posted by gspain
Linfield have never admitted to any sectarian policy however as they didn't have any Catholic players from approx 1950-1988 then they probably did and it is widely understood that they did. The ending of it was probably triggered by Eric Bowyer then manager i nan interview with a Linfield fanzine saying he would love to sign a Catholic but didn't think it would go down well. This was after 1988 but they probably didn't realsie that Tony Coly was catholic
It seemed that a protest by an American priest who threatened to get big American corporations to boycott the club helped stop this.

Duncan Gardner
31/10/2003, 9:46 AM
Lopez. Perhaps I exaggerated Linfield's influence over the NI football authorities in the 1940s. I mentioned this only to illustrate the likely reaction to punitive action against the club (indeed, any club), at the time.

A gentle word of advice. If you're going to imply that I'm an apologist for unionism/ the British establishment, best wait until I say something apologetic on their behalf. 'The football authorities acted crassly in 1948' is quite clearly a strong criticism of them, not a whitewash.

Your potted history above is otherwise pretty fair- Gary's is rather too generous to the Blues.

Davros. I'm pleased to say the Irish League doesn't share your cynicism. For years, Linfield couldn't visit Solitude and Cliftonville had the hassle of extra away matches. Now both sets of fans can travel, and do without too many problems. Unlike the West Ham support in N17 the other day, alas...

lopez
31/10/2003, 11:51 AM
DG. As I know you off this forum, I can vouch that you are no apologist for discrimination, which I think is what you are getting at here.

This isn't about unionism or the British establishment. The British government never gave a flying f**k about Northern Ireland until the balloon went up. The people on 'the mainland' gave the place a thought only when the bombs arrived.

This is about a sporting organisation that was, in my belief, to use a succinct buzzword, 'institutionally' sectarian. Crassly is what you describe incompetent idiots, and sounds similar to the stock answer that NI society, in areas that were dominated by unionism (and it must be added, Nationalists - if we look at the employment records of Newry Council), was not deliberately sectarian. Even today, this is something that sticks in the throats of David Trimble and his posse, let alone the good reverend's jihad. I've only ever heard one politician admit this and that was David Ervine of the UVF's political wing.

I would offer that deep down many in the Irish League and the lower reaches of the Irish FA detested Belfast Celtic on religious/ethnic grounds and were glad to see their departure. The opportunity to act 'crassly' - ie: in this case, do nothing excpet a token punishment - was enough to ensure this.

Duncan Gardner
31/10/2003, 6:23 PM
Lopez. Choice of adverb apart, I think we're broadly agreed!

Looking forward, the important thing surely is that all clubs and their supporters feel comfortable in the IL, or playing IL teams. My message to Dav above shows this is improving.

PS Can you please stop sending me pictures of Will Carling's dimple. Are you really a secret egg-chaser?

lopez
31/10/2003, 7:34 PM
The time has also come to step a toe into an all-Ireland cup. This ran in the late seventies/1980 when the inevitable rent-a-bigot jumped on the bus for his sojourn down Mexico way. This I think is a move forward: Comes with no strings attached (as it has been going in many forms since partition - in fact it is a recognition of partition itself); would generate more money than Glenavon against Ballyclare for the fourth time; and is favoured by many Northern unionist fans. Poor clubs will obviously suffer as in the Champions League, but it will also give many of the outsiders something to strive for.

As for 'bum-chin', you have been making some fierce accusations in your correspondence. Firstly that I am a Celtic supporter (OK I pop into see them if they're in London, but I haven't got the Celtic Song as my ringtone) and then I don't like rugger, after mentioning that I was a youth hopeful(unhopeful) at London Irish.:rolleyes: All that real ale is catching up, I'm afraid.

Duncan Gardner
02/11/2003, 11:00 AM
Agreed. Both leagues already have a secondary cup competition; they could run separately up to the QF stage, then the eight winners go into an open draw?

Duncan Gardner
03/11/2003, 10:21 AM
Quite. There's no chance of an AI league, for the reasons discussed already. The Ulster and Munster clubs wouldn't want the travelling, the unionists can't accept the politics, the Guards don't fancy busloads of yahoos travelling to and forth regularly.

So a small cup it should be initially.

Shed End John
18/11/2003, 4:21 PM
Originally posted by gspain
Linfield fans would always cheer for example if Cliftonville were beating Glentoran.


No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.

gspain
21/11/2003, 1:20 PM
Originally posted by Shed End John
No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.

Cliftonville fans probably hate Linfield more than anyone else (Crusaders and Portadown would be close as would Derry City) however Linfield's main rivals are Glentoran and yes they do cheer when the Glens lose to Cliftonville.

There is a deep and bitter rivalry between the Blues and the Glens and no love lost. These games attract the biggest crowds of the season and are more passionate than Bohs v Rovers for example.

BTW I don't recall Cliftonville fans ever being banned from Windsor certainly not for a protracted period. The Reds were not able to play home games at Solitude v Linfield for 28 years. This was because of police advice although many Reds feel Linfield could have done more to help end it.

Leviathan
22/11/2003, 12:51 AM
At the end of the day, those dark days are now well and truely fading. The loss of Belfast Celtic can never be measured, and remans to this day, one of the biggest travesties of IL football. We all grew up with the old stories of Linfield/BC games, the players, the atmosphere.. things that give the oul man a twinkle in his eye.. things that we never had the chance to experience.
As I said, we have moved on from that, and our main aim now is to improve the stndards at IL clubs, both stada and on the field.

DC made a self imposed exile, and are now quite content in the EL, that is their choice. I woukld love to see them back,ut most of their supporters asure me that won't be happening. What I (and others) want thm tod now, is to withdraw their membership of the IL and totally devote themselves to the EL. It isn't fair on any of the rest of the clubs on the Island thhat theyhave their finger inboth pies, wheras we have to mke do with what our Governing bodies give/offer.

We have all been talking about some sort of cup competition between both leagues, and I think that now would be a good time to try and instigate something. Even if it was the top 8 from each league, split into 4 groups of 4 .. the winners playing in semi finals. I think it could be a great occasion, and a great second cup competition, behind our FA cups.

The last thing is, we all know the past and what has happened, but it seems that too many are trying to politicise everything.

ghosty
22/11/2003, 1:09 AM
No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.


Show me any rival fans who do not bait the opposite team whenever they score.


We have never been banned from Windsor while playing Linfield, in fact it's was the other way around linfield fans were banned from Solitude for 28 years. The reason for the ban? Linfield played Ballymena at Solitude in an Irish Cup semi-final, it ended up in a riot and in a roundabout way Cliftonville got punished, no Linfield fans for 28 years, no more big gates from the blues.

So i suggest you do a little research before you post.

ghosty
22/11/2003, 1:20 AM
Originally posted by gspain
Cliftonville fans probably hate Linfield more than anyone else (Crusaders and Portadown would be close as would Derry City) however Linfield's main rivals are Glentoran and yes they do cheer when the Glens lose to Cliftonville.

There is a deep and bitter rivalry between the Blues and the Glens and no love lost. These games attract the biggest crowds of the season and are more passionate than Bohs v Rovers for example.

BTW I don't recall Cliftonville fans ever being banned from Windsor certainly not for a protracted period. The Reds were not able to play home games at Solitude v Linfield for 28 years. This was because of police advice although many Reds feel Linfield could have done more to help end it.

Very True, we do dispise Linfield more than any other club, Portadown are a very close 2nd though and the Crues, well no gives a **** about them to be honest.


Linfield could've ended the ban a lot sooner that is true m8, it was actually more dangerous for us to go to places like Lurgan to play Glenavon and Portadown in the late 80s and early 90s. But we never complained about it, even when a crowd of over 400 wrecked our buses outside Shamrock park vs portadown. But hey that's in the past and it's time to move on.

Shed End John
24/11/2003, 3:46 PM
Originally posted by ghosty
[b]Show me any rival fans who do not bait the opposite team whenever they score.

So i suggest you do a little research before you post.

Certainly NOT us. We REALLY rub it in on Rovers when we score/win a game against them. Especially the home game back in August, down to 10 men, enter John O'Flynn and a famous 1-0 win.
Snide comments like your other point aren't helpful. I DO actually keep track of IL soccer mostly on BBC NI on a Saturday, and mostly to keep track of ex-eL players eg Pat Fenlon- Rovers, Pats, Bohs, Shels + 2 seasons with Linfield, Alan Gough- Shels, Derry, Glentoran, and Vinny Arkins- Shels, St Johnstone (SCO), and Portadown. Not a bad knowledge of the IL I'm sure you'll agree.

James
24/11/2003, 3:58 PM
Originally posted by Shed End John
I DO actually keep track of IL soccer mostly on BBC NI on a Saturday, and mostly to keep track of ex-eL players eg Pat Fenlon- Rovers, Pats, Bohs, Shels + 2 seasons with Linfield, Alan Gough- Shels, Derry, Glentoran, and Vinny Arkins- Shels, St Johnstone (SCO), and Portadown. Not a bad knowledge of the IL I'm sure you'll agree.

i can name 5 or 6 players playing in Germany / Scotland / Italy / Spain yet i dont think that would qualify me as having 'not a bad knowledge' of the league. far from it..

anyway isnt pat fenlon managing shelbooooorne ?
alan gough is also in the EL playing away !
u might want to keep a better track of those 'ex-eL' players john when you're watchin BBC NI

Shed End John
25/11/2003, 5:48 PM
Originally posted by James
anyway isnt pat fenlon managing shelbooooorne ?
alan gough is also in the EL playing away !
u might want to keep a better track of those 'ex-eL' players john when you're watchin BBC NI

A world class display of your undoubted ignorance/utter stupidity once again James. I wouldn't be on the same planet as everyone bar yourself if I didn't know that Nutsy has just managed Shels to the title two years after giving up his playing career to take the job, or that AG is in fact playing away with Derry. Idiot.:rolleyes: :mad:

James
25/11/2003, 6:08 PM
i'm sry john you're right
you naming those players in the Irish League section as a shining example of your knowledge of the game up their is perfectly right

i give up on this one :)

Shed End John
25/11/2003, 6:28 PM
Originally posted by James
i'm sry john you're right
you naming those players in the Irish League section as a shining example of your knowledge of the game up their is perfectly right


Never said that, James, but, i'm sure that even my limited knowledge of IL soccer is more than 99.999% of football fans around Europe. Besides, you'll always see at least one goal that would deserve a feature in Eurogoals 'Goal of the Week'; and it IS half way enjoyable, especially when the Norths answer to Rangers - Linfield lose.:cool:

TheRealRovers
25/11/2003, 8:01 PM
Originally posted by Shed End John
Certainly NOT us. We REALLY rub it in on Rovers when we score/win a game against them.
Well Cork and Shams isn't anywhere near as big as Cliftonville Vs L*nfield and I don't think Shams really see Cork as one of there biggest rivals