derry & Cliftonville

[1Davy]

Here are some more examples of the blatant sectarianism the was part and parcel of the IFA in the 60's

When Derry had to play Linfield in an IFA Cup semi-final, the Oval was picked as a neutral venue.

Also in 1965 Derry City played Linfield in an IFA Cup reply at Windsor. Outside the ground there were four buses parked to take the Derry supporters home. As we were entering the buses, bottles and bricks starting landing on us. We all got into the buses and got down on the floor. A policeman also got into each bus. As we started to pull out of Windsor, every window including the drivers, was broken in all the buses. We made our way to Antrim, where a local doctor attended those suffering form cuts and bruises, and we had to wait, until our buses were replaced.

Now consider this incident, were several people were attacked and hurt, and the buses smashed, with the incident at the Brandywell. There a gang of thugs took the Ballymena team bus, pushed it out of the ground, and set it on fire. Although a terrible act, no one was hurt, and at no time was anyone in danger. No one at the game was even aware this took place. Yet Linfield were not punished in any way, while we had to withdraw from senior football.

By the way, the IL programme was postponed on the death of Sir Winston Churchill.

[lopez]

Here are some more examples of the blatant sectarianism the was part and parcel of the IFA in the 60's...Steady on, Davy! That was just 'a bit o' craic'! Once again you're just falling into this cosy trap of portraying Nationalist clubs as perpetual victims. I want to hear of all the other times that non-nationalist clubs have been victims of the IFA unjustly favouring nationalist teams. It's been two days since the question was asked...presume a big fat dossier is being put together. :rolleyes:

[Lux Interior]

I think you differ. You are willing to admit there is some discrimination. Lux likes to see any attempt at pointing to discrimination as a 'cosy trap.' Pssssssst! You don't suppose Lux is a reincarnation of the army groupie? Saw him using the 'only a bit o' craic' line yet again on ourweeminds yesterday. Seems to be a favourite of his. :D


Lux has ALREADY highlighted the discriminatory nature of the suits - or did you bypass the line, "the accusation of 'institutional sectarianism' is hard to refute" (in reference to the IFA), in your rush to get to the real bane of my post? :rolleyes:

And I will concede the 'bit o craic' comment was, in the above context, a tad unsuitable and will happily retract. Others, however, have their own uses - some justifiably - for this term.

However, the 'cosy trap' I refer to is the very real belief here that the IFA/IFL execute their daft decisions to undermine 'nationalist' teams ONLY. Not doubting the IFA's 'treatment' of Derry City, just suggesting that, in the wider context, other mitigating factors were considered, n'est-ce pas? Ditto DC's exclusions from the upper echelons. Yet, I'm less than chuffed that for the second year running, these balloons have tried to undermine our season whilst other, more heinous crimes, go seemingly unpunished. Nothing to do with the make-up of Glentoran FC but with the crassness and inconsistency of an organisation which I maintain elicits 'punishment' - correctly or otherwise - regardless of a club's perceived demographic.

"Army groupie" - is that a suggestion that I'll happily solicit outside Ballykinler barracks or is this some 'pan-nationalist' term of endearment? Either way, my ten-odd posts on 'OWC' have sweet jack sh*t to do with 'beggars' (whoops!!) and more to do with 1stGNISC and The Cramps, (cos 'if ya know yer muzik' etc etc):confused:

[Lux Interior]

Know you're a Glens fan.....we concur,not?!

Your concurrence, or otherwise, means nuffin' to me, chief.

:rolleyes:

[Lux Interior]

Here are some more examples of the blatant sectarianism the was part and parcel of the IFA in the 60's

When Derry had to play Linfield in an IFA Cup semi-final, the Oval was picked as a neutral venue.

Davy, I'm at a loss to see the 'sectarian motive' behind this decision, considering the alternatives ..... 1000s of Linfield and Derry fans converging in, say, Coleraine or Ballymena with the RUC either not coping, and/or wading into - probably - Derry fans.

And it's not as if the IFA have picked seemingly bizarre semi-final locations for competitions since - hell, even those involving 'unionist' teams ..... :rolleyes:

.... the words 'perpetual victims' are on my tongue here. No, really ;)

As for the commemoration of Winston Churchill. A not unreasonable gesture, given Churchill's leadership during WW2 as head of state, including Northern Ireland ....... and his role in ensuring, for example, the pounding East Belfast took in 1941 never occurred again.

Maybe the programme should also have been postponed in 1975 for 'Dev' and HIS role in that war.

[Duncan Gardner]

Lux Interior. Lopez's and Davros's repeated asides to the 'Army Groupie' refer the OWC poster and regular NI traveller who you may know as 'M(ad) D(og)'. Mr Dog has in the past made the occasional comment about the sectarian British statelet-occupying mutant military presence, which the foot.ie thought Police deemed insufficiently critical.

Talking of MD, as you'll have seen he tends to sport a Soviet Army officer's uniform while on away trips. In Tallinn, and shortly after the big man's abortive abseil into the stadium, I was pleased to act as his interpreter in a drunken exchange with some Russian-speaking squaddies. (In an echo of the divided society back home, the corporal in charge was the only one speaking Estonian).

But of course the only foot.ie contributor complaining about the unfairly British ethos at NI football is Davy, and he needs to go back 40 years to do it! I mean, wise up...

Like Davy, I abhor violence around grounds, and like him, I've been bricked at a couple in the past (Glentoran, Cliftonville), and also on the bus home through Bawnmore (nationalist area near Crusaders). Is it really worthwhile drawing up a 'league table' of same? I think not...

Lopez. As you'll have guesed I was having a gentle dig at your early football-watching in the slightly less fraught surrounds of west Hertfordshire. But unless it's changed in the last few years, I think you're a little generous to Berkhamsted, which I know through various work trips to its castle. Local pubs etc. full of pringle-wearing Spurs hoolies, as I recall :)

PS unless I'm very much mistaken, Dev's death was announced at a Saturday game at Windsor- got a standing ovation...

[lopez]

Lux has ALREADY highlighted the discriminatory nature of the suits - or did you bypass the line, "the accusation of 'institutional sectarianism' is hard to refute" (in reference to the IFA), in your rush to get to the real bane of my post? :rolleyes:
Then why change your mind by suggesting that this institutional discrimination is often illusionary?

And I will concede the 'bit o craic' comment was, in the above context, a tad unsuitable and will happily retract. Others, however, have their own uses - some justifiably - for this term.
No the context was fine by me. After all there could be the possibility that I'd concede that it's perfectly fine for nationalists to shoot people at football matches. Just this 'bi o' craic' snipe. It srikes as a dig at the heel kicking -top o' the mornin' auld paddy reputation that Irish football fans have gained for themselves, which is not always universal. Anyway as you've taken it back that's fair enough.

"Army groupie" - is that a suggestion that I'll happily solicit outside Ballykinler barracks or is this some 'pan-nationalist' term of endearment? Either way, my ten-odd posts on 'OWC' have sweet jack sh*t to do with 'beggars' (whoops!!) and more to do with 1stGNISC and The Cramps, (cos 'if ya know yer muzik' etc etc):confused:
No it's my old mate on here (not Dog Breath, Duncan) who thought it would wind me up putting up a photo of two US soldiers with a NI flag on his website (it was apparently round the wrong way) claiming 'they eat babies.' :rolleyes: As I told him, without the US Army, I'd be breakfasting this morning on sauerkraut.

As for the commemoration of Winston Churchill. A not unreasonable gesture, given Churchill's leadership during WW2 as head of state, including Northern Ireland ....... and his role in ensuring, for example, the pounding East Belfast took in 1941 never occurred again.

Maybe the programme should also have been postponed in 1975 for 'Dev' and HIS role in that war.More blinkered, revisionist cr*p. DeValera kept Ireland neutral in the war: Oh dear! He signed the book of condolences on Hitler's death, something, however misguided it was, he thought should be done as a neutral head of state (he made a greater effort in signing FDR's book of condolences but that's never brought up): Tut, tut. Let's forget about all the British and US servicemen that were returned to the North after crashing in the 26C. How many German pilots and spies were returned? Exactly! :rolleyes: Oh and BTW, if you ever get to read the Times at the beginning of the Spanish Civil War you'll find some fat aristocrat with a big cigar waxing lyrical about the overthrow of a perfectly legal democratic government, an article I presonally read syndicated in the pro-Franco Irish Independent in July 1936.

But of course the only foot.ie contributor complaining about the unfairly British ethos at NI football is Davy, and he needs to go back 40 years to do it! I mean, wise up...
While this does not include you specifically, isn't 40 years a bit recent when you consider that people in NI are still banging on about the events of 1641. :confused:

[Duncan Gardner]

Lux, you're exaggerating Churchill's role in the defence of Belfast specifically during WW2. There was a second, though smaller 'blitz' in 1942 but after that the Luftwaffe never returned, which surprised the RAF then and historians since.

Belfast was very badly provided with anti-aircraft defence throughout the War. The Shorts factory was moved there (from the Medway towns in Kent) in 1938 because the War Office thought it would be beyond the range of German bombers! To be fair to Churchill I think he did criticise the poor state of readiness generally while he was in opposition in the late 1930s.

Lope, Dev's neutrality during the Emergency was of course almost entirely benovolent in favour of Britain, for the reasons you give. Reasons that I'm sure you and I have agreed before, maybe not on this board. I'd call the condolence visit to the German ambassador Hempel a calculated statement to Churchill rather than a careless protocol error. Churchill was talking some quality ballcocks at the time about Ireland's neutrality as part of his (unsuccessful) re-election bid. Even more ludicrously, he compared his coalition-partner Labour party to the Gestapo :)

[lopez]

Lope, Dev's neutrality during the Emergency was of course almost entirely benovolent in favour of Britain, for the reasons you give. Reasons that I'm sure you and I have agreed before, maybe not on this board. I'd call the condolence visit to the German ambassador Hempel a calculated statement to Churchill rather than a careless protocol error. Churchill was talking some quality ballcocks at the time about Ireland's neutrality as part of his (unsuccessful) re-election bid. Even more ludicrously, he compared his coalition-partner Labour party to the Gestapo :)I'd concede that Dev probably thought that this was a good way of getting back at Churchill. I know it pressed the right buttons. Personally I'm not so anti-Churchill as my posts might suggest, although this doesn't mean I'm a great fan either. He had a great constitution that you'd be proud of DG (eating a Roast Beef dinner for Breakfast is no mean feat); he was the only person to stand up and point out that Hitler was more than a harmless scoundrel that just ran Germany like a tight ship, even though it was more a case of threats to British interests than an abhorrence of the lack of democracy; and he was for European Union - a fact always conveniently forgotten by Richard Littlesh*t and his fans in the right wing press. Nice to see Dev and Winst get together later for some light refreshments and talk about the good old days. That's politics for you! :D You forgot to mention that he's probably the only British prime minister to get a standing ovation at Celtic Park, Belfast (circa 1912 on the Home Rule tour)? Happy days!

[1Davy]

"Davy, I'm at a loss to see the 'sectarian motive' behind this decision, considering the alternatives ..... 1000s of Linfield and Derry fans converging in, say, Coleraine or Ballymena with the RUC either not coping, and/or wading into - probably - Derry fans.

And it's not as if the IFA have picked seemingly bizarre semi-final locations for competitions since - hell, even those involving 'unionist' teams ....."

Lux, there were no other reasonable explanation, other than sectarianism for that decision. This was just after the IFA had barred Derry City from playing in Europe. No one, and i mean no 0ne, including Harry cavan was able to tell Derry City why they coudn't play in Europe, having already played three games in Europe.

Take that decision, along with the FAI telling Derry City they have to play their semi-final game against a Belfast team, Linfield, in Belfast. These were all amatuer players, yet one team was told to make a 150 ml round trip, yet the other team had not to travel at all.

Lux you say the IFA picked bizarre locations in the past. Well they have never in their history used the Brandywell as a neutral venue for a cup game.

You also make the comment,

"the words 'perpetual victims' are on my tongue here. No, really".

I can only assume that you are insinuating that alot of this discrimation, was a figment of our imagination. To back up this theory, i would ask you a simple question.

Give me ONE decision made by the IFA that had favoured a Nationalist team.

[sylvo]

Don't be too hard on RL....he P*ssed himself once on 606,when I ph.in to have a dig @ some H*n,who had the TEMERITY to say they weren't get the rub....with Reffing decisions.....so I launched into a diatribe v.this,starting off;
"So,Good to see the grey skies of Paranoia are gathering over Ibr*x......",which seemed to tickle RL.....if you need verification....you could ask your Polska traveller....think he was giggling away in the front seat......

I'm not Polish i'm Hirish blood, Yes i can confirm this and i would have to say it was very good.

[Duncan Gardner]

Pourqoui ca va sans dire? We've beaten various other larger and stronger countries to get there. I think one of the team is at Leeds as a trainee?

[Duncan Gardner]

Northern Ireland qualified. The Republic, Italy, Germany and Holland didn't. Quite satisfying really. You lot are always going on about Kerr's great work with youth teams, why didn't ye get there?

[TommyT]

Northern Ireland qualified. The Republic, Italy, Germany and Holland didn't. Quite satisfying really. You lot are always going on about Kerr's great work with youth teams, why didn't ye get there?
Maybe cos he's not working with the youth teams anymore ?

[lopez]

Er,we/they didn't enter......or in case you hadn't noticed....BK managing a proper international team.....not a puppet state.....did they give you the'wild card'?!Ouch!

Maybe cos he's not working with the youth teams anymore ?Ouch!!!

[Duncan Gardner]

Presumably according to Davros's logic NI have the greatest U-21 in Europe, undisprovable since they won't be playing anyone for a while...come on Kenny and the boys against Spain!

[Duncan Gardner]

I am describing your 'logic' actually...

[Duncan Gardner]

No, your 'logic' doesn't quite lead inevitably to the conclusion that 'Northern Ireland must exist so I can abuse it'. Unless ye're more devious than I thought?

[liam88]

IS this the end of our massive long thread?

Bringing it back to the original point..........
Belfast Celtic Website (www.belfastceltic.net/)

[liam88]

Can of worms,Reopen-ed......probably?!
That's the idea ;)