Tactics - the Duff Debate

[fergalr]

In my opinion the problem was not that Duff was on the right but that he was playing out wide.

The consequence of this is that when Duff drifted (as he is wont to do), Carr was left exposed. Both of their goals and their crossbar shot came from attacks down our exposed right.

How this was not spotted by half time I'll never know. Duff should have been played up front or in the hole behind a lone striker. At the very least, if he had to be played wide he should have been given clear defensive duties (it was pretty clear he hadn't).

[pete]

Originally posted by fergalr
The consequence of this is that when Duff drifted (as he is wont to do), Carr was left exposed. Both of their goals and their crossbar shot came from attacks down our exposed right.


Better to have Carr "exposed" than Ian Harte.


Originally posted by fergalr
Duff should have been played up front or in the hole behind a lone striker. At the very least, if he had to be played wide he should have been given clear defensive duties (it was pretty clear he hadn't).

People had also been complaining than Duff should not be played up front or in "the hole" in recent games.

Hindsight is great.

[colster]

I believe the problem was that we couldn't deal with the diamond formation.
Wicky played on the left of centre midfield and was not an orthodox winger.
He drifted out to the wing when attacking and cleaned up Duff when defending.

I don't think that the placement of Duff was neccessarily the problem but more that our wingers didn't tuck in and Keane/Connolly stayed up forward and didn't drop deep or get behind the ball to compress their midfield.

The other problem was that Holland marked Yakin which left Healy to deal with up to 3 central midfielders. I think it was wrong for Holland to mark Yakin.

[thecorner]

no matter what happens duff has to play on the left

u have to play to your strenghts

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by fergalr
In my opinion the problem was not that Duff was on the right but that he was playing out wide.

The consequence of this is that when Duff drifted (as he is wont to do), Carr was left exposed. Both of their goals and their crossbar shot came from attacks down our exposed right.

How this was not spotted by half time I'll never know. Duff should have been played up front or in the hole behind a lone striker. At the very least, if he had to be played wide he should have been given clear defensive duties (it was pretty clear he hadn't).

Duff has played up front for Ireland roughly 20 times. I can't think of one preformance that I'd call 'exceptional'. Never matches his club form.

The last time Duff played 90 minutes on the left, I'm open to correction here, was the pre world cup friendly against Denmark at home.

He looked like Maradona that day, an absolute world beater. Tore them to shreds, set up a goal and got man of the match at a canter. Every match at the world cup he got switched to the wing, three times to the left and once to the right. His form increased 10 times over when he did it, remember the Spain preformance? Only after he switched did he cause problems, same for all of the matches of the tournament.

Duff is a left winger. Not only that, he's our best player. Why do so many people want to play this left winger in other positions where he'll be less effective? Why in the name of god can't someone have the vision to play this left winger ont he bloody left wing!

It's his best position, it's where he does the most damage and it's where he should be when Ireland can play their most fluid and effective attacking football.

As for defencive dutys, if he's on that wing the full back and even winger will have enough trouble marking him so they wont be concentrating on attack. I mean, do Man U worry about Giggs defencive dutys? And when he's on the left, what full back is normally behind him?

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by Slash/ED
Duff is a left winger. Not only that, he's our best player. Why do so many people want to play this left winger in other positions where he'll be less effective? Why in the name of god can't someone have the vision to play this left winger ont he bloody left wing!

Seconded. Pure and simple. That's where he's best, whatever Brian Kerr, Claudio Ranieri and large sections of Ireland and west London may think.

:D PP

[liamon]

Can't really see any argument that counters Slash/Ed's.

Duff has to play on the left. We have few players of truely outstanding capability. Duff is one. Start him on the left where he can dominate a game, win frees, etc. The rest of the team should be built around this capability.

[carnstein]

Originally posted by fergalr
In my opinion the problem was not that Duff was on the right but that he was playing out wide.

The consequence of this is that when Duff drifted (as he is wont to do), Carr was left exposed. Both of their goals and their crossbar shot came from attacks down our exposed right.

Duff is a left winger, the best left winger in England, he should be played on the left wing.

He kept drifting in because he was on the right and had to cut in to get the ball onto his left foot, this would not be a problem if he was played on the left wing.

[tiktok]

i do think that the left wing is Duff's best position.

however, he has played well on the right for us in the past, most notably against spain in the WC, one of his best in an ireland shirt.

hindsight is all well and good, but i still think that given the way the russians ran at the swiss and destroyed them, kerr did pick the right team. it didn't work because we have too many average players and too many good players who didn't perform, a lack of passion is the last thing anyone of us would have expected from an irish eleven.

[fergalr]

Duff is a left winger, the best left winger in England, he should be played on the left wing.

"left winger"! Are we back living in the early sixties and are we going to be next debating whether Colin Healy should play wing-half or inside-right!?

Truth is that nobody in the modern game plays with "wingers". For Chelsea this season, the Duffer has been played in a number of positions. About half the time he has been on the right or left of midfield in an othodox 4-4-2 and about just often he's been playing in behind a front two in a diamond 4-3-1-2. When he plays wide midfield for Chelsea he has clear defensive duties (which he performs excellently).

If you want to judge Duffer's finest moments in a green shirt then you should consider the competive games - the ones that matter. I recall the U-20 world cup (he played up front), the 1-0 v Holland (striker) and against Spain (wide right).

Calling him a "left winger" is to diminish the great man's talent.

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by fergalr
"left winger"! Are we back living in the early sixties and are we going to be next debating whether Colin Healy should play wing-half or inside-right!?

Truth is that nobody in the modern game plays with "wingers". For Chelsea this season, the Duffer has been played in a number of positions. About half the time he has been on the right or left of midfield in an othodox 4-4-2 and about just often he's been playing in behind a front two in a diamond 4-3-1-2. When he plays wide midfield for Chelsea he has clear defensive duties (which he performs excellently).

If you want to judge Duffer's finest moments in a green shirt then you should consider the competive games - the ones that matter. I recall the U-20 world cup (he played up front), the 1-0 v Holland (striker) and against Spain (wide right).

Calling him a "left winger" is to diminish the great man's talent.

Call him a left winger, left sided mid fielder, wide left or just Damien it doesn't change a thing.

Duff has played in that position, on the left or right, for Chelsea this season. He started on the right and was quickly oved to the left when it was obvious that's where he was producing his best form.

As for competitive matches, thanks to the managers we've had either suffering from mild insanity or something along those lines, we've not seen him play for 90 minutes wide left as far as I know. Instead, he's been lumberd up front, and despite the fact that his club form never matched his Ireland form while being used up there, that up there he's barley scored or assisted, despite the fact that anyone with even the slightest grasp of football knowledge could see that it wasn't working and his best position is on the left, he's not been moved there. Only really in the second half against Spain and extra time have we seen Duff really show the kind of brilliance he's shown for Blackburn and Chelsea, probably unsuprisingly, this game as a result to him being switched to the wing.

His best preformance for Ireland, in my view, was against Denmark. Man of the match, an assist, and a preformance that anyone in the world would have been proud of. Despite this, our inept previous manager decided in his infinite wisdom that come the world cup Kilbane should be reinstated to the wing he was so poor for for Sunderland and Duff should be lumbered up front, a position where he has never, not once, ever, produced his top form for Ireland at.

The fact is, he's a player who plays on the left of mid field. A left winger, if you will, or a wide left player, or a left sided mid fielder, whichever you prefer. With this, hardly suprising then, that his best form for club and, on the odd chance he's gotten there, for country have come on the left.

Without Roy Keane, we need someone to be a talisman. You, I, and everyone else knows that man is Damien Duff, and he should be the inspiration of the team. In order to do this it makes sense, to be at least, he should be put in the position where he is most effective, on the left side of mid field. This is where his form is best, this is where he will have to be for Irelands form to be best aswell. If were to preform, we need our big players at their best, and the only way to do that with Duff is get him on the left. We played him up front, it failed, we played him in the hole, it failed, we played him on the right and I wouldn't say it failed, but it's not a patch on what he can do on the left.

On top of that, one of the main problems with him up front is Keane. Keanes natural game is all about dropping deep, getting the ball and making things happen. To do this well, he needs someone in the box to be a presence, get the ball and score goals, a goal scorer. Clinton Morrison is the only one in our squad who matches that description. Put Duff there, and you get what we got. A partnership with two deep playing forwards with nobody in the box to score the goals. If you check, Duff and Keanes goals to games record when played together is absolutley appaling, and that's no coincidence. Keane plays best when beside someone like Morrison, Duff plays best on the wing, that's the bottom line, he must play wide left.

[Beavis]

Originally posted by Slash/ED
. Only really in the second half against Spain and extra time have we seen Duff really show the kind of brilliance he's shown for Blackburn and Chelsea

Disagree.I was always of the opinion that Duff plays aswell if not better on international duty.

Look this is about limited resources and trying to get your best 11 players onto the field.Why sub an inform Kevin Kilbane so that someone like Carsely can be obselete on the right.Wouldn't it be better to have two strong runners on the wings than one.Nobody is debating Duff's best position, but we're Ireland not Chelsea and sometimes we are going to have to make changes to fit our best 11 in.Duff's done a great job for us out of position.He was our best player up when up front against Russia and on the right against Albania(I think),who was to say it wouldn't work again last Saturday.

[Slash/ED]

Duff did NOTHING up front against Russia apart from the goal, and even then he scored it by getting the ball on the left wing.

Kilbane in form? Kilbane, it seems to have escaped peoples notices here, is not international class or anything near it. He ran his arse off against Russia and, as ever, lacked the class to do anything with it and now people are saying he's in form and can't be dropped. It took him over 50 caps to even achieve that! Kilbane is not good enough and imo, with Reid emerging, Andy that is, isn't even our best sub on the left wing. Get rid of him.

Steven Reids been a bit poor of late but he or Finnan are better on the right then Kilbane is on the left. Why play a rubbish player and move our best one out of position, leaving out people like Reid or Finnan? It makes no bloody sense!

Justifying that with 'We're Ireland not Chelsea' is ********. Did Blackburn have loads and loads of resources? No. In fact, I remember pre signing Andy Cole every day Souness was crying in the media over a lack of a striker, not once did he try Duff up there, probably because he's a decent manager and knew what he was doing. Blackburn had no more resources then us so I can't accept that argument at all.

Fact is, he MUST play in his best position, for a country who are 'not Chelsea' that's even more important, we need him at his best because we rely on him so much.

[Beavis]

What you think of Kilbane is entirely your own opinion.I rate him you don't but next time Kilbane gets the ball in space at Lansdowne look around and see people out of their seats and urging him forward.Do you think if Holland or Carsley or even Finnan had the ball with space to run into people would get so excited.He drives forward,takes players on and creates openings for us.Remember he tore Estonia apart?and your lying if you say he was poor against Russia.Unlike even the master Duff,he's aslo solid defending and knows his job when we don't have the ball.That's why irish managers like him,Kerr had no problem with dropping him when he was playing badly but Kilbane proved himself worth a place in the first 11.


[B]Duff did NOTHING up front against Russia apart from the goal, and even then he scored it by getting the ball on the left wing.[B]
Right maybe I got this wrong,I only go on what I see at the game and don't normally get a second look at it.Still my vague memory tells me he was doing well.


[B]Did Blackburn have loads and loads of resources?[B]
Blackburn didn't have a player of Kilbane's calibre in that position.(That'll get ye going);)

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by Beavis
What you think of Kilbane is entirely your own opinion.I rate him you don't but next time Kilbane gets the ball in space at Lansdowne look around and see people out of their seats and urging him forward.Do you think if Holland or Carsley or even Finnan had the ball with space to run into people would get so excited.He drives forward,takes players on and creates openings for us.Remember he tore Estonia apart?and your lying if you say he was poor against Russia.Unlike even the master Duff,he's aslo solid defending and knows his job when we don't have the ball.That's why irish managers like him,Kerr had no problem with dropping him when he was playing badly but Kilbane proved himself worth a place in the first 11.

Kilbane works his arse off down the left there's no question, however, he couldn't cross a road. That's his problem. In his dynamic preformance against Russia where he saw more ball then any other Irish player did he create even a single half chance? No. This is because he lacks class. The class needed to play at this level. That's the difference between him and Duff and why he's not good enough to keep our best player out of his best position. Kilbane runs and runs and runs but the fact is he doesn't create, he doesn't have quality and he's just not good enough.

I'll ignore the last comment for the good of the sites swear filters ;)

[brine2]

Kilbane once tore Estonia apart.

Wow, that's great return for 30/40-odd caps.

[Beavis]

I just gave one example.He's had many good games.Again down to a matter of opinion.People these days though don't seem to give him a chance and label him a donkey before looking at what he actually does.Same with Breen,just jump on the bandwagon with everone else and call them c rap.Its easy

[Slash/ED]

Originally posted by Beavis
I just gave one example.He's had many good games.Again down to a matter of opinion.People these days though don't seem to give him a chance and label him a donkey before looking at what he actually does.Same with Breen,just jump on the bandwagon with everone else and call them c rap.Its easy

And as a result of that the opposite is happening with some people.

They think people refuse to give Kilbane a chance to go completley over board on how good he is and how he cannot be dropped. The fact is Kilbane is what he is, an average work horse. He can have decent games where it just falls for him but he isn't good enough to justify moving our best player out of position to keep him in the side.

Breen, on the other hand, is proving alot of the doubters, me included, wrong with his preformances for us this year and is more then worthy of his place in the side.

[Beavis]

Okay now your being more reasonable.I know Kilbane is no world beater but worth a place non-the-less.We could go on and on with this one but at least I've got you to acknowledge he hasn't been all bad for this country.As for keeping Duff out of his proper position,I don't know,someone suggested in the paper that he should adopt to left full.He used to play there for West Brom sometimes and if O Shea continues to play badly it might be an option.Try it in the friendlies?

[John83]

Originally posted by Beavis
...someone suggested in the paper that he should adopt to left full.He used to play there for West Brom sometimes and if O Shea continues to play badly it might be an option.Try it in the friendlies?
Yes. We've got very limited options there, and he's worth a try. If O'Shea doesn't pick up, I'd rather Killa there than Harte. Though I want Finnan given a run there at some stage.

[Beavis]

Can Finnan play on the left?If so then why wasn't he in their over Hartey.If we had him on the left and Cunningham,Breen and Carr available well that looks a solid defence for any team.

[Slash/ED]

Finnan can, has and will play on the left imo. He was once a left winger in his early career and has showed many times his left foot is nearly as strong as his right (He's brilliant at cutting back and sending in a fantastic cross on his left peg). Kerr has played him there against Norway, I think, and in the very late stages against Turkey. I guess he didn't want to risk him in any other matches. Imo, he's too good to be on the bench, it's espically criminal when that lemon Harte is on the pitch, so long term Kerr will hopefully play him there in friendlys and he and O'Shea can compete for the spot.

[colster]

Originally posted by Slash/ED
Finnan can, has and will play on the left imo. He was once a left winger in his early career and has showed many times his left foot is nearly as strong as his right (He's brilliant at cutting back and sending in a fantastic cross on his left peg).

Exactly what he did for the goal against Holland in Landsdowne. Ran into the box, turned and crossed with his LEFT foot to the back post for MacAteer to score.

[fergalr]

returning to the original thread ... I thought the Duffer was excellent last night - playing in his best position of course ;)