when is an irish man an irish man

[max power]

don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

[Feech]

Originally posted by max power
don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

it has been covered ad nauseum before!

[max power]

looked around and didn't see anything and after the weekend and talk of changes in the squad, should changes be made to the selection process is what i'm wondering ??

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by max power
don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

Of course, it's o.k for players with Irish roots not born in this country to play for Ireland. Most of these players have a genuine affinity with Ireland. In fact many of the Irish living in England and Scotland have more pride in Irish culture and traditions than the Irish who stayed in Ireland.

[Feech]

ok, fair enough.

personally, I think if someone has an Irish parent and has retained links to the country, ok.

Otherwise no.

It's funny that people born in Ireland to asylum seekers are somehow not really regarded as being properly Irish, but I am always being told that some of the English muppets who line out for Ireland are unquestionably Irish, up to 110% in fact! Despite them knowing nothing about the country and sometimes having never even been to Ireland.

[max power]

agreed with all you said paddy, but you have to agree that there are certain players who see Ireland as an easy international cap and don't play with the pride of the others involved.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by max power
there are certain players who see Ireland as an easy international cap and don't play with the pride of the others involved.

Totally, but, the opposite side to that coin is Ray Houghton. What a player and an excellent servant to Irish soccer. What really brought it home to me about Razor was watching him in the Gottlieb-Daimler Stadium (formerly the Necker Stadion) before the Stuttgart-Manchester Utd game still glowing with pride at having scored THAT goal.

[max power]

yeah but does every scot not want to score the winner against england ????
he is a good man and had never forgotten who he played for, some players play the game and that is the last you hear of them, meet them in the pub and ask them what country are you from, what answer will you get ????

[Keely]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Of course, it's o.k for players with Irish roots not born in this country to play for Ireland. Most of these players have a genuine affinity with Ireland. In fact many of the Irish living in England and Scotland have more pride in Irish culture and traditions than the Irish who stayed in Ireland.

Agree entirely, those (especially) with Irish parents are just as entitled to play for Ireland as any 'irish' man born over.

As someone London born, to Irish parents, i'm quite used to being told i'm not 'irish'; often by those in Ireland. I don't classify myself as English and as rightly mentioned above, the London Irish often (from my experience) show a greater affiliation to Ireland than many of the Irish that are over here...

[max power]

keely you know where your coming from and from talking to you i know how proud your are to be irish and its not in a stupid way either, take for example i'm just back from the states where i got the usual my granny was irish rubbish, hey guess what my granny was irish too !!!!

[Macy]

It's not as cut and dried as where someone is born, more their state of mind (not really right but you get my drift)....

I was born in Manch to Irish parents and never considered myself anything but Irish when it came to nationality, others in the same boat thought of themselves as English...

C*nts that decide they might be Irish when an international cap comes calling at a stage when they won't get called up for England are infruiating and do the genuine "Irish" players and people a great disservice. People like Kilbane, Breen etc have always considered themselves Irish and there is no problems, Players like Matt "God Save The Queen" Holland and Clinton "Wait and see" Morrison should never have been capped....

Incidentally Ray Houghton said on that "Green and Red" series that he still looks for Scotlands results first rather than Irelands. An example of everything that is wrong with trawling the family tree for players. I'd also include Cascarino in my hate list, after his "revelations" that he had no Irish roots at all because he was adopted (despite it clearly being the case that as an adoptive child he has the equal rights!).

[max power]

macy to we agree on a topic ????

[Keely]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Macy
[B]It's not as cut and dried as where someone is born, more their state of mind

Precisely, just because an individual isn't born in a country, doesn't mean they genuinely cannot be passionate about that place/culture. You're exactly right when you say it's more a frame of mind, if you paramountly consider yourself Irish and appreciate what that entails you've as much right on the squad as the next irishman.

However, when it comes to a question of nationality, if you're not prepared to call yourself Irish, are not familiar with Ireland and so on, then Irish parents or not you shouldn't be playing...

[Macy]

Well the first thing I would do is ask a player once, and if he says no or even has to think about it then they should never be asked again...

That would at least remove the likes of Morrison from the equation.

Also players like that no-mark (Pretty sure Alan Lee, but not 100%) who threaten to declare for someone else should be told to fook off if their nationality means so little....

[pbn]

Matty Holland sang GSTQ before the Ipswich v Barnsley playoff final at wembley a few years back.
The camera went along the line as that anthem was being played & there was good old matty singing away. I saw it with my own eyes.

I too was born & bred in England of 2 Irish parents
& Macy has already said everything i have ever thought about
the issue of non irish born ( or plastics, and tans which we are also referred to as) players turning out in the green shirt.

People like Matty, Clinton, Carsley etc ruin for the likes off Breen,Kilbane, John Sheridan etc who always wanted to play for ireland. Unfortuneately many lob the likes of Breen & Kilbane in the same category as Clinton & co which shouldn't be the case

[Ozymandias]

Alan Lee was born in galway..He made that comment after Dongivens didn't even consider him for the greek game even though he was banging in the goals at Rotherham last season adn half the team weren't available........Alan Lee has been capped at youths level as well....

Being Irish is a state of mind..and my mind was in some state in Basell.....go raibh maith agat Fraulein

[Dodge]

Originally posted by pbn


People like Matty, Clinton, Carsley etc ruin for the likes off Breen,Kilbane, John Sheridan etc who always wanted to play for ireland. Unfortuneately many lob the likes of Breen & Kilbane in the same category as Clinton & co which shouldn't be the case
Why is Carsley in there? He played for Ireland U21s and afaik is very proud to be Irish. Agree re Breen, Kilbane

Also there is nothing to say that people with dual nationality shouldn't be proud of both. I have no problem with any irishman born in England being proud of their English side. I have a huge problem with journeymen Pro's looking for to use ireland to make more money though.

I think any foreign born players should have to declare for Ireland by the age of 19. If they don't know they are irish by then, they'll never know

[Keely]

It's a complex debate that's fuelled by the England/Ireland history/proximity. We know that they're allowed to play for Ireland by law, but, even i who grew up in England would have reservations about someone who stood and sang english anthem and then played for Ireland, dual nationality or not.

I'm irish and appreciative of the upbringing i've had in England, yet would never call myself half irish and half english. Back to the spirit thing again, that's what some people find difficult to comprehend - in some eyes you've to be one or the other, you can't be both!

[yur man]

ive always thought that 16/17/18 would be a good age to declare and then be unable to change

remember that butler guy tryin to play for ireland after bein married to an irish girl. that was fairly embarressin. glad he didnt last long

gettin around the rules like that takes away from the special status it is to play for your country

a lot of people have different nationalities in them, but u can only play for one country, and u shud decide early

[Beavis]

Defo should bring in a restriction on this by asking young players to declare before success(or lack of it) decides for them.Breen and Kilbane genuinely want to be in the green shirt.Include recently retired 'keeper Dean Kiely in this.He played when he was young for an irish side set up by his oul fella called Lancashire Harps(I think this was the name) and talks about how he was always an irishman born in England.He knew who he wanted to play for just a pity for him Given was round too.

[London Irish]

What a sterile debate. How many of those who call us plastics were in Basel??????????

just back from Basel and proud to say hundreds of us plastics there suporting the boys in green and playing silly money to do so (£350). Having great time with all IRISH Fans. Met lads from Dublin, Mayo, London, Nottingham and Birmingham.

Our parents never chose to leave the land of their birth for fun. Some weren't 'lucky' enough to have the choice to stay. Why should we ever forget that???????

[lopez]

To be fair to Matt Holland, the man has one English parent. As someone with a non - Irish parent, I can understand his love of both his parents' countries.

The thing about Irish fans born in England is that they mostly have two Irish parents, or as in my case and a couple of others, one Irish parent and one non-British. It is rare that you find an Irish fan (with or without one English parent) that also supports England. In my time (22 years) abroad I've met only one who confessed to this (before Romania 1990) and I suppose he went back to watching England, because that was the first and last I saw him.

Yet the same can't be said of the players. I never saw someone like Andy Townsend, John Aldridge or Michael Robinson as Irish, great 'servants' they all were, and I think it is laughable that anyone ever did themselves. How can anyone born in England, brought up in England, with three English grandparents say that honestly. These three showed their true loyalties (as did Clinton) when they were first approached and all have 'histories' of either supporting England against Ireland or desperately wanting to play for England. They just put the rest of us in the same boat as themselves.

As for the attitude about the 'plastics' good to see there is still some of the old w ankers at Irish games who have yet to get their head around us...not! Met one eejit on Saturday who asked for my passport when he heard the accent say that the owner had a ticket. My reply of course mentioned both tosser and f uck off.:mad:

[lopez]

The above players mentioned qualified for Irish citizenship purely on legal grounds set out by legislation. There are people who go to watch Ireland with no Irish blood whatsoever. There were St Pauli fans in Basel on Saturday. There was also this young lady from Japan who was recently made an honorary member by the London RISSC.

The point is that one minute Michael Robinson was wanting an interview with Ron Greenwood, the next he's greener than the cast of The Quiet Man. Replace Greenwood with Sven and you've got Morrison. I'd defend their right to Irish citizenship (therefore making them eligible to play for Ireland) but I'm not going to do an impression of the kid with Emperor and his new clothes and claim people are Irish who, football caps apart, know little about the place.

[Dodge]

Agree with everything Lopez said...

[S.E.P.1990]

B]The thing about Irish fans born in England is that they mostly have two Irish parents, or as in my case and a couple of others, one Irish parent and one non-British. It is rare that you find an Irish fan (with or without one English parent) that also supports England.[/B]

Sorry to disagree with this statement but, as an English fan with one Irish parent, I know many English supporting Irish fans. The problem is in Ireland they dont think they can tell anyone. As Conor might know this is especially true down in the wilds of Kerry (where i was resident for a number of years). Just to mention that 7 of us went to the England v Germany game in Munich, all of us have at least one Irish parent and 3 of them where born in Ireland.

I agree especially with the John Aldridge comments from earlier because I used to live 5 doors down from him in Liverpool and his family where not particularly Irish (unlike other families in the area). Everyone knows he only did due to continuously being snubbed by Bobby Robson (though he was in competition with Beardsley, Barnes, Lineker etc).

[lopez]

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Sorry to disagree with this statement but, as an English fan with one Irish parent, I know many English supporting Irish fans. The problem is in Ireland they dont think they can tell anyone. As Conor might know this is especially true down in the wilds of Kerry (where i was resident for a number of years). Just to mention that 7 of us went to the England v Germany game in Munich, all of us have at least one Irish parent and 3 of them where born in Ireland.


I was talking about fans that follow Ireland and also follow England. Sounds like you just follow England to me, if you decided to go to Munich on the same day as Ireland's most important game for years.

As for not being able to tell people you support England in Ireland, well you can thank your scummish compadres who wrecked Lansdowne for that one.:rolleyes:

[max power]

lopez there is no need to start that sort of thing, everyone knows the average english supporter had nothing to do with the trouble in landsdown, its when you bring other things into football that the trouble starts, its game, not a religion.

[lopez]

Originally posted by max power
lopez there is no need to start that sort of thing, everyone knows the average english supporter had nothing to do with the trouble in landsdown, its when you bring other things into football that the trouble starts, its game, not a religion.

This average supporter I keep hearing. I've yet to meet one.:rolleyes:

Yeah, the poor misunderstood darlings. Its always Johnny Foreigner looking for a row, the local police, the meeja. Get a grip! With the exception of parts of Eastern Europe, I've found local fans and police OK. I sat in the Swiss end on Saturday, no probs. If it was just a 'handful' of Irish fans causing trouble, then they'd be either lamped or pointed out to the police, and they sure as hell would be too embarrassed to go to another game again.

It wasn't Combat 18 that started the Dublin riot, but ordinary England fans. You could call them average ones.:mad:

By the way S.E.P. I'd imagine you're 'Irish' friends would find it just as hard telling some of the scummeros they're England fans as the residents of Kerry.

[petef]

To me if someones willing to declare themselves for Ireland and there good enough then I dont see why not.

[fergalr]

I fully agree that declaring early and playing underage should be enough to silence doubters.

However, we have to face up to the fact that we've never achieved anything without a liberal smattering of bona-fide brits in the team - from the really top class ones like Lawrenson, Houghton and Aldridge to the lesser lights of Robinson, Cascarino, Galvin, etc.

The glory years of 1987-1994 would never have happened without these imports. Looking at the debates about squad clearouts I fear that we're doomed to mediocracy until we start finding irishmen again.

Sad but true?

[max power]

well i have met a lot of normal english supporters who have no interest rioting and the like and i have also met a lot of irish supporters who have probem with england either, i for one have no problem with english people, i have a friends from england and have family there and they don't riot at every given chance, why i've even met a rovers fan who doesn't riot !!!

[max power]

ah conor you can make even the worst day worth while, well said to all of the above !!

[Junior]

Originally posted by Conor74
You've yet to meet an Englishman who is not a hooligan? You've yet to meet a fellow from England who just goes to watch a game, maybe have a few pints and go home? You've yet to meet the standard, run of the mill fan who enjoys football? Every week, the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of English people who go to games can be fairly represented by a group of Combat 18 thugs? Come on, let's not get too hysterical. I must have been to a fraction of the games in England that you have been to, but I've been to games in Manchester, Leeds, Coventry, London and I can honestly say I've never met anything other than an average supporter. After years of documentaries and books, I was downright disappointed with how boring and normal it all was. I can honestly say I've sen far worse at eircom League games, though I will accept that I have not sampled the delights of Milwall, Stoke, Bristol or Cardiff.

I must admit to seeing thousands of 'your average' supporters up in Glasgow.... fancy that eh Connor??????;)

[S.E.P.1990]

I was talking about fans that follow Ireland and also follow England. Sounds like you just follow England to me, if you decided to go to Munich on the same day as Ireland's most important game for years.

Sorry Lopez, 5 of the lads were Irish supporters who couldnt get a ticket for the Holland game, but knowing what a big game England v Germany was, decided it would be a good game to go to. We actually ended up watching the Irish game on German TV before heading off to the Olympic Stadium.

As for your point on the hooligans - dont do the usual generalisation about England fans. As u r not an England fan and have never been to an England match u wouldnt know what the average supporter is like. Surprisingly (for u that is) they are pretty much the same as Ireland supporters. Unfortunately there are some gobsh*tes and hangers on who want to be the so-called tough men - these ppl arent fans just thugs. Much like all Shamrock Rovers fans arent scumbags because of the act of a few of there supporters.

As for ur point about not being able to say u r an Irish fan in parts of England I totally agree - but it doesnt make it right. The problem r ppl who, once they see an England fan, automatically think scumbag (or in England, once they see an Ireland fan think IRA).

[max power]

when do i get my badge and newsletter ???

[Schumi]

As far as I'm concerned, someone who grew up in England (or anywhere else) with Irish parent(s) and considered themselves Irish has every right to play for Ireland but should have to make the decision at a certain age (18 maybe) that they'll only play for Ireland.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Conor74
You've yet to meet an Englishman who is not a hooligan?...

What you are talking about is club football where hooliganism is watered down. Its like comparing low alcohol beer with poteen. I am talking about the England team. You know, three lions etc.

In 1991, I was in the Black Lion pub in Kilburn when it was attacked by a load of the scum. There, a couple of dozen Irish fans joined by a family with a baby for a drink were bombarded through the window with, amongst other things, a lead bottomed dustbin. My mate almost had his jugular cut - he made the inside of the Daily Express - and I had a gash on my forehead by a pint glass thrown in through the door, which thankfully clotted without the need of stitches, so I could go to the match. I still have a scar as a souvenir. This happened at about 2pm. Had they come at five, with more fans and additional 'Paddy builders', they would have had a proper battle, but the chaps as portrayed by that fat w anker Brimson are not so brave in real life.

1995, I'm sure you know about that.

1990 Dublin. Almost came to blows with a well known Chelsea 'fan' Terry Last - he who spent a couple of years at one of Her Majesty's hotels, after being 'framed' - and his firm, at Heathrow Airport after their constant UDA chants got a bit irritating. Almost, but after seeing that both sides were a bit too even, the pussy Last, as they say in his 'manor', 'bottled it'. You won't find that episode in 'Everywhere We Go.'

1990, Italy. Decided to go straight to Sicily, too much bother.

1988 Stuttgart. Left the city early for same reason.

1985 Wembley. The Scum bit off more than they could chew here, getting a bit of a pasting, which probably explains their superb return performance in 1991.

So forgive me if I'm not aquainted with the Nick Hornby set.

Funny Connor how you are quick to defend the scum while being so critical of Celtic fans for singing the odd party song and booing opponents.



Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
As for your point on the hooligans - dont do the usual generalisation about England fans. As u r not an England fan and have never been to an England match u wouldnt know what the average supporter is like.

I've mentioned six above. Went to Spain (mother's country) in 1981 & 1996 at Wembley and Villa in 2001. Weren't much improvement there either. Must be Gibraltar eh?


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Surprisingly (for u that is) they are pretty much the same as Ireland supporters.

You are joking? You have got to be ****ing joking?


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
As for ur point about not being able to say u r an Irish fan in parts of England I totally agree - but it doesnt make it right.

In England I can say I am an Irish fan with no problems. I just wouldn't go to an England match and speak with an Irish accent.

[gustavo]

>>In England I can say I am an Irish fan with no problems. I just wouldn't go to an England match and speak with an Irish accent.>>

Because of course if a guy with an english accent went in amongst our fans as a mere anthropological experiment at an ireland match he would be made to feel most welcome especially if he produced a rangers shirt cos he heard that the irish have a great love for some team in glasgow

[thecorner]

vey interesting indeed

an article saturday morning with brian kerr

"we have a great chance of beating the swiss,cos our forefathers were always up for a batlle when our country was been invaded and it has been passed down family traditions thru the years"
"our players will battle like they did"

one thing u forgot brian


some of our team were descendants of the w@nkers that invaded us

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Macy]

Originally posted by fergalr

However, we have to face up to the fact that we've never achieved anything without a liberal smattering of bona-fide brits in the team - from the really top class ones like Lawrenson, Houghton and Aldridge to the lesser lights of Robinson, Cascarino, Galvin, etc.

The glory years of 1987-1994 would never have happened without these imports. Looking at the debates about squad clearouts I fear that we're doomed to mediocracy until we start finding irishmen again.
Doesn't make it right, and certainly does take away from the achievement, IMO....

Boll0xs to all this anyway - clubs are far more important than international teams.... Far more important to me that Town win the Cup Final than Ireland winning last Saturday...

[Xlex]

Originally posted by Macy
Boll0xs to all this anyway - clubs are far more important than international teams.... Far more important to me that Town win the Cup Final than Ireland winning last Saturday...

agree 110% and I'm sure we all would.... but would a Glasgow supporter prefer the same thing?

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Xlex
agree 110% and I'm sure we all would.... but would a Glasgow supporter prefer the same thing?

And boll0xs to that. Another one with a Glasgow obsession.:rolleyes:

Country first, every time. Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).

[Macy]

Originally posted by Greenbod
Country first, every time. Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).
Any muppet can support the national team 6/7 times a year - club football's week in week out is what it's all about....

[Macy]

Originally posted by Greenbod
Any mercenary can play for your club (If your club can afford them that is).
Actually missed the obvious.... What is this thread about? Mercenaries like Morrison, Houghton etc etc.... LOL...

Any mercenary can play for your country, once they have the right grandparents....

[S.E.P.1990]

What you are talking about is club football where hooliganism is watered down.

And where do u think all this so-called hard cases start??

Lopez, we can all list incidents involving fans of teams. I couldnt even count how many times ppl in Ireland have had a go at me (both physically and verbally) for choosing to support England. I have been bottled and stabbed by Irish fans, got a good kicking off some Germans, have been chased by Chelsea and Man Utd fans - the list goes on. But my point on 'average' fans, which you chose to take exception to, is still valid - its only 1% or 2% of fans who are idiots, its the 98% that make up the average, football loving, passionate fans.

Your entire list of events seem to be trying to prove that these so-called English fans are not as 'hard' as the Irish fans e.g. they got a bit of a pasting; they are not as tough as in the books; if there were a few more Paddy builders there.

Plus I did like the way that you refer to my Irish mates who choose to support England as 'Irish' which is quite ironic given the topic of this thread........ Do you think that in Spain, because you support Ireland, they refer to you as 'Spanish'??

Anyhow I dont wish to turn this into an English v Irish debate. On the general point I think that, with the grandparents rule, you will always get chancers and u will always unearth one or two genuine gems. If the rule is there exploit it and hope that the players perform for you regardless of whether they can dance the Siege of Ennis or recite a passage from Peig.

:D

[lopez]

Originally posted by gustavo
Because of course if a guy with an english accent went in amongst our fans as a mere anthropological experiment at an ireland match he would be made to feel most welcome

Er, that's exactly what does happen MOST of the time, or do you think I and the some of the others that have posted on this thread put on an Irish accent when we follow Ireland.:rolleyes:


Originally posted by gustavo
especially if he produced a rangers shirt cos he heard that the irish have a great love for some team in glasgow

Never seen it done, but there was a bloke in Lisbon in 2000 who had an England shirt with the Butchers' apron in my section that survived unscathed physically and verbally. I also saw a big St George's flag in the Irish section in Georgia. Given the choice between wearing a Rangers shirt at an Ireland game and an Ireland shirt at an England game, I'd take my chances with the Rangers shirt.


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Your entire list of events seem to be trying to prove that these so-called English fans are not as 'hard' as the Irish fans e.g. they got a bit of a pasting; they are not as tough as in the books; if there were a few more Paddy builders there.

My entire list of events aims to prove that, ONE, your figure of the odd 1 to 2% of England fans are hooligans is complete cojones, and TWO, that despite an industry in printing books portraying themselves out to be the hardest, bravest and indeed the most honourable hooligans in Europe, in reality 99% of them are cowards.


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Plus I did like the way that you refer to my Irish mates who choose to support England as 'Irish' which is quite ironic given the topic of this thread

Oh you did! You said these were Irish born English fans, and expect me to assume that because they were born in Ireland they were Irish. I guess you think that as I was born in England I am English. You probably think a dog born in a barn is a horse. The quotation marks referred to how Neolithic man would take to them. No offence was intended to your mates.

After this quote, however, you replied that they were merely soccer tourists. Perhaps if you said that at the beginning, I would have discarded the quotation marks.


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Do you think that in Spain, because you support Ireland, they refer to you as 'Spanish'??

I wasn't born in Spain and never lived there, so I'm confused to what the relation of this has got to do with me describing your mates 'Irish' for being born in one country and supporting another, without me knowing their opinion of and relationship with viz a viz their country of birth. For instance do they have dual citizenship? (which for the record I don't possess - even though I'm entitled to three nationalities - so there is no need for any misunderstanding about my nationality).;)

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Macy


Any mercenary can play for your country, once they have the right grandparents....

You're missing the obvious and you don't even see the contradiction in what you're saying. The important part of your statement above is "right grandparents". Any mercenary can play for your club regardless of background or history. Why would anyone support these guys more than the national team.

Every club footballer you support would move given a better offer. A decision to play for your country is permanent and irreversible.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Greenbod
Every club footballer you support would move given a better offer. A decision to play for your country is permanent and irreversible.
Read back over the dicussion, for some international football is just a carreer move.... Not good enough for england, sure it's okay you can get you bonus because of one grandparent..... btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse....

[S.E.P.1990]

You said these were Irish born English fans, and expect me to assume that because they were born in Ireland they were Irish. I guess you think that as I was born in England I am English. You probably think a dog born in a barn is a horse.

Lopez, apologies for the confusion (i didnt know ur relationship with spain and was just taking a wild guess..:) ).

The original point was that there are Irish fans who also support England (or at least thats what it was taken as). All but two of the lads are Irish born but have either one or two English parents - thus they feel comfortable following both teams. Two of us are similar except we were born in England.

Not sure what the soccer tourists refers to (??)

As for the born in a stable argument surely that is what this thread is about?? Some people do think they should be horses and some people think they should be dogs!!! (Then again some ppl think they are dorses!!! Which is where it gets too
confusing....:D )

[sadloserkid]

And then of course there's the anthem test, David Connolly and Kevin Kilbane sang the national anthem last week, Ian Harte and Colin Healy either couldn't be arsed because they're too cool for that or else they just don't know it. Does this make Connolly and Kilbane more Irish than the two wannabe male models? (Though truth be told I wish Healy was ineligable :))