when is an irish man an irish man

[Beavis]

btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse.... [/B][/QUOTE]
How can you consider your club before your country?What you refer to above maybe a very small percentage of international footballers interests but in club football there is affinity to nothing but a good contract.Y

[Beavis]

btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse.... [/B][/QUOTE]
How can you consider your club before your country?What you refer to above maybe a very small percentage of international footballers interests but in club football there is affinity to nothing but a good contract.Y

[max power]

how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.

ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by max power
how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.

ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me

And therein lies the rub. For many of us who are second-generation Irish, we tend to identify more with the country as a whole than any one specific part. It makes sense; we may have parents from different parts of the country (in my case east county Galway and west county Sligo) or just one Irish parent and one from elsewhere. As such, in my own case I follow eircom League football in general, but have no loyalty to one particular team. I've been to Terryland Park, St. Mel's and the Showgrounds on several occasions in each case but have never come away having undergone a Pauline conversion to United, Town or Rovers. Much as I might have liked to... ;)

And - it's probably the second-generation thing again - in spite of the fact that I am a Celtic man through and through, I would rather Ireland win the European Championship (or the World Cup) than Celtic win the Champions League. So it's country before club every time.

:D PP

[max power]

as i said paddy each to his own , but we are off topic now and the bones is when is an irish man an irish man. does a little book with Eire in the front of it and your picture on the inside make you irish, is it where you were born ,is it your mind set, is it your background, is it your love of the colour green or is it just an easy way to get international football for some people ????

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by thecorner
vey interesting indeed

an article saturday morning with brian kerr

"we have a great chance of beating the swiss,cos our forefathers were always up for a batlle when our country was been invaded and it has been passed down family traditions thru the years"
"our players will battle like they did"

one thing u forgot brian


some of our team were descendants of the w@nkers that invaded us

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There would be quite a large section of the team if you tke into account that many of the invaders of Ireland like the Vikings, Normans and even English settled in Ireland and married Irishwomen becoming as Irish as the Irish themselves.

[thecorner]

Originally posted by max power
how can you go club before country, simply this, i am from longford and then from ireland, i wear my town jersey with more pride than i would ever wear an ireland one, maybe thats just me but de town always come first.

ask yourself a question do you get more joy out of ireland winning a game or your club winning a game ??? i know which is the answer for me


i like this answer

go on max power.......give 'em hell;)

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Macy
Read back over the dicussion, for some international football is just a carreer move.... Not good enough for england, sure it's okay you can get you bonus because of one grandparent..... btw what about the arguements and threats every major tournament over the players pool share of the income - for the love of the country me arse....


You're really not being consistent. You say for some international football is just a career move. This is supposed to be an argument for club before country?

Well I' ve got some news for you. For ALL (not some) club football is a career move. Every single footballer you so passionately support would move away from your beloved club given half a chance. Using your own logic you should support country before club every time.

BTW, Saints will win the cup;)

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
And therein lies the rub. For many of us who are second-generation Irish, we tend to identify more with the country as a whole than any one specific part. It makes sense; we may have parents from different parts of the country (in my case east county Galway and west county Sligo) or just one Irish parent and one from elsewhere. As such, in my own case I follow eircom League football in general, but have no loyalty to one particular team. I've been to Terryland Park, St. Mel's and the Showgrounds on several occasions in each case but have never come away having undergone a Pauline conversion to United, Town or Rovers. Much as I might have liked to... ;)

And - it's probably the second-generation thing again - in spite of the fact that I am a Celtic man through and through, I would rather Ireland win the European Championship (or the World Cup) than Celtic win the Champions League. So it's country before club every time.

:D PP

Paddy, it's not a second generation thing. I'm first generation and feel the same way. Country first, every time.

[gspain]

I remmeber the English fans in Lisbon - a few came in the back in their white shirts. they didn't come to any harm but they must have been bemused at some of the pro-german chants. (Germans won at Wembley earlier i nthe day). I assume they were ex pats.

Also had a Leeds fan in his Leeds shirt who kept singing "Ian Harte Harte Harte" everytime he touched the ball sitting behind me.

I wore my Irish shirt in Osaka at the England v Nigeria game mixed in with england fans and there was no problem. also put up a tricolour.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Greenbod
You're really not being consistent. You say for some international football is just a career move. This is supposed to be an argument for club before country?
No that was a response to your arguement....


Originally posted by Greenbod
Well I' ve got some news for you. For ALL (not some) club football is a career move. Every single footballer you so passionately support would move away from your beloved club given half a chance. Using your own logic you should support country before club every time.
But the club will still be there and I'll still be there, and it will still mean more to me than how good, bad or indifferent the international team is.....


Originally posted by Greenbod
BTW, Saints will win the cup;)
Probably, by 5-0 I predict...

[Greenbod]

Originally posted by Macy
No that was a response to your arguement.

So what's your arguement?



Originally posted by Macy
But the club will still be there and I'll still be there, and it will still mean more to me than how good, bad or indifferent the international team is......

Not much point in a football club without footballers really. The club may or may not still be there. They have been known to disappear. Your country will still be there however.


Originally posted by Macy
Probably, by 5-0 I predict...

Now you're making some sense.

[Beavis]

Originally posted by Greenbod
Paddy, it's not a second generation thing. I'm first generation and feel the same way. Country first, every time.

Damn straight.I think it's just these Longford lads who think otherwise,mmm..maybe Cork too:rolleyes:

[sadloserkid]

Originally posted by Beavis
Damn straight.I think it's just these Longford lads who think otherwise,mmm..maybe Cork too:rolleyes:

You can add me to that list too.

[lopez]

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Lopez, apologies for the confusion (i didnt know ur relationship with spain and was just taking a wild guess..:) ).

I love the country, speak the language, try to catch Deportivo (mother's home town team) in Europe and Spain - thanx to Mr O'Leary and his airline - and hope Spain go on to win Euro 2004, but am I Spanish? 'Fraid no. Not 100% Irish either.


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
The original point was that there are Irish fans who also support England (or at least thats what it was taken as). All but two of the lads are Irish born but have either one or two English parents - thus they feel comfortable following both teams. Two of us are similar except we were born in England.

As for the born in a stable argument surely that is what this thread is about?? Some people do think they should be horses and some people think they should be dogs!!! (Then again some ppl think they are dorses!!! Which is where it gets too
confusing....:D )

Me and you are dorses (love the analogy), which is something I pointed out about Holland. He's half English, so why shouldn't he stand and sing its anthem.

I do sympathise with you. It's easier being an Irish fan in England than an England fan in Ireland. Most of us 2G have had trouble with the resident Irish. I had a punch up and took a beating before the 97 game in Cardiff which made the Gerry Ryan (I think) show. But this IS the 1% because most of the 1G know the score or couldn't care less. Many would support England after Ireland aswell.

But I don't take back what I said about the English support. I've never met many England fans socially but one at work, from the late 1980s, just couldn't hack it anymore. Nor could I with Ireland if every game was a warzone. For every odd England or Russia away game thankfully there are loads of what we got in Switzerland. There is a great danger of England being banned (I can't see a trouble free 2004) yet all the the English can do is blame foreign policing or foreign fans, when that isn't where the problem lies. The fiasco over the England Travel Club, in which hooligans were members, showed this.

It's not anti-English on my part. I'm indifferent to them in other sports, like this month's Rugby World Cup. I also live here, so I must find something appealing about the place.


Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Not sure what the soccer tourists refers to (??)

Soccer tourism is going to watch football for the sake of it (at World Cup Finals, other games...if you have the money), which I see is what Gary does (no offence mate!). Doesn't count with your mates if they have an English parent.

[Junior]

Originally posted by lopez
Most of us 2G have had trouble with the resident Irish. I had a punch up and took a beating before the 97 game in Cardiff which made the Gerry Ryan (I think) show. But this IS the 1% because most of the 1G know the score or couldn't care less. Many would support England after Ireland aswell.



Lopez, I was there that night, didn't realise it was you who got the beating, think it was reported in the Irish Post as well.

However, I have to say as 2G I haven't had any hassle from 1G apart from some very naive/stupid comments directed my way.

[gspain]

>>>>
Soccer tourism is going to watch football for the sake of it (at World Cup Finals, other games...if you have the money), which I see is what Gary does (no offence mate!). Doesn't count with your mates if they have an English parent.
>>>>>

No offence taken Lopez.

I as many others do enjoy watching football however watching other countries as a neutral is not a patch on watching your own team or your own country.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Junior
Lopez, I was there that night, didn't realise it was you who got the beating, think it was reported in the Irish Post as well.

However, I have to say as 2G I haven't had any hassle from 1G apart from some very naive/stupid comments directed my way.

I do remember talking to some Manchester boys before that fatefull visit to the toilet, though. Anyway apart from looking like Chi-Chi the panda for a couple of weeks, no longlasting problems.;)

Nearly all the time it's just ignorance. Moreoften it is innocent enough: 'Thanks for supporting us', 'Do you follow England?', 'Who you supporting if we play you (England) in the play-offs?'. Thankfully it is on the wane, although on Saturday I still got asked about my passport (see above). :mad:

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by lopez
Nearly all the time it's just ignorance. Moreoften it is innocent enough: 'Thanks for supporting us', 'Do you follow England?', 'Who you supporting if we play you (England) in the play-offs?'. Thankfully it is on the wane, although on Saturday I still got asked about my passport.

I fully sympathise, Lopez, as I get the above all the time when I travel to visit Ireland. I find the above lines of questioning particularly maddening when I'm stood there in an Ireland shirt with a tricolour wrapped around me to boot. I've taken to offering the offenders my glasses so that they might see the colours in which the man stood before them is bedecked. :rolleyes: Occasionally they laugh; more often than not they've wandered off muttering something along the lines of "sarcastic English wánker"...

It's another reason why I've adopted the "plastic" sobriquet, and use it in much the same way that Black people sometimes refer to each other as "nîgga" or gay men and lesbians sometimes refer to each other as "queer". That, and over thirty years of having to explain myself to people whose natural tendency is to try and place everything in life in easy-to-define categories.

:D PP - Plastic and Proud...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
I fully sympathise, Lopez, as I get the above all the time when I travel to visit Ireland. I find the above lines of questioning particularly maddening when I'm stood there in an Ireland shirt with a tricolour wrapped around me to boot...It's another reason why I've adopted the "plastic" sobriquet, and use it in much the same way that Black people sometimes refer to each other as "nîgga" or gay men and lesbians sometimes refer to each other as "queer". That, and over thirty years of having to explain myself to people whose natural tendency is to try and place everything in life in easy-to-define categories.

We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :D

[Junior]

Originally posted by lopez
We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :D

Lead Vocalist from the 33rd county 'Manchestoooorrrrrr!:p

[lopez]

Originally posted by Junior
Lead Vocalist from the 33rd county 'Manchestoooorrrrrr!:p

May I suggest 'Ice Cold Guinness' ... or perhaps 'Dr. Drenk' as your handle, or is that too much stereotyping?:D :D :D

[pbn]

Has anyone ever seen the "Ilford, Plastic Paddies On Tour"
flag... I saw it at USA 94... Classic

[brine2]

I was born in Ireland, but have lived in Holland for most of my life. People in Holland don't consider me Dutch at all, and I always call myself Irish and never Dutch. I'm a foreigner living in Holland, and that's the way it is. However, it annoys me when I go back to Ireland and I meet all these people with massive chips on their shoulders who don't consider you as Irish as themselves just because your accent isn't as thick as theirs or because you don't know one or two slang words that they do. It makes you feel like you don't belong anywhere anymore.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by lopez
We should start a rap band, Plastics with Attitude, and release an album 'Straight outta Kilburn'. :D

Or some kind of retro glam rock band, á la The Darkness. How does "Plastic Fantasic" sound?!? :cool:

:D PP

[Junior]

Originally posted by lopez
May I suggest 'Ice Cold Guinness' ... or perhaps 'Dr. Drenk' as your handle, or is that too much stereotyping?:D :D :D

I was thinking more 'Puff Paddy...........'



I'll get my coat.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by Junior
I was thinking more 'Puff Paddy...........'

Only if I can be Wyclef Séan...

:D PP

[London Irish]

A plea

All this talk of violence and 1G versus 2G is all pretty depressing and not why I follow the boys in green? I’m not naive but in my time apart from the odd sarcastic comment on my cockney accent have never had any problem (home or away) but a feeling of warmth and belonging. Why do we go down this road when things go wrong? I have 2G Italian and Polish friends and they follow the country of their parents’ birth and culture without this complexity.

Supporting Ireland has been a wonderful experience and when life gets complicated has given me a bit of ballast. I still get the most amazing feeling when I remember Dublin on the night after the Dutch game in a state of absolute euphoria. Despite the result, Zurich and Basel for me were majestic experiences to add to my collection – so many new friends and memories.

I’m Plastic and I could never follow England or sing their national anthem. It just wouldn’t feel right. Others like me might and that’s their choice. End of…. That’s not to say London hasn’t been good to the Irish and vice versa – it gave jobs and money to send back home when the Celtic tiger was a fantasy – but for me England is ‘somebody else’s’ team.

I wear my RISSC-London top with so much pride knowing I am part of the Irish story in my own small way. Questions are asked at games about where in London, do I know such and such and Irish pub, where are the folks from?

When I started going away with Ireland my parents would never worry enough to try and stop me because I’d be ‘with my own’. That my friends is good enough for me.

Please don’t spoil it……..


(Ps sorry for the ramble!!!!)

[Junior]

Originally posted by London Irish
A plea

All this talk of violence and 1G versus 2G is all pretty depressing and not why I follow the boys in green? I’m not naive but in my time apart from the odd sarcastic comment on my cockney accent have never had any problem (home or away) but a feeling of warmth and belonging. Why do we go down this road when things go wrong? I have 2G Italian and Polish friends and they follow the country of their parents’ birth and culture without this complexity.

Supporting Ireland has been a wonderful experience and when life gets complicated has given me a bit of ballast. I still get the most amazing feeling when I remember Dublin on the night after the Dutch game in a state of absolute euphoria. Despite the result, Zurich and Basel for me were majestic experiences to add to my collection – so many new friends and memories.

I’m Plastic and I could never follow England or sing their national anthem. It just wouldn’t feel right. Others like me might and that’s their choice. End of…. That’s not to say London hasn’t been good to the Irish and vice versa – it gave jobs and money to send back home when the Celtic tiger was a fantasy – but for me England is ‘somebody else’s’ team.

I wear my RISSC-London top with so much pride knowing I am part of the Irish story in my own small way. Questions are asked at games about where in London, do I know such and such and Irish pub, where are the folks from?

When I started going away with Ireland my parents would never worry enough to try and stop me because I’d be ‘with my own’. That my friends is good enough for me.

Please don’t spoil it……..


(Ps sorry for the ramble!!!!)

Nice Post, all of the above applies to me also. only a bit of banter mate don't take things too seriously:)

[London Irish]

Junior mate - wasn’t having a go at anyone and should have put as a new post.

Get a bit emotional sometimes and just a short story on what it all means to me. Think the two nights without sleep last weekend in Basel is catching up + a couple of pints prompted that one!!!!

Cheers

[gspain]

Just to echo the above - the London Irish were travelling en masse in the 70's & 80's when it was anything but cool to follow the Irish football team.

[lopez]

Originally posted by London Irish
A plea

All this talk of violence and 1G versus 2G is all pretty depressing and not why I follow the boys in green?...

No intention of souring the atmosphere at Ireland games. But while the violence is very rare, the ignorance, as we can see is a bit more common. I wouldn't mind this 'banter' if I actually supported England once Ireland got knocked out, but like you, I don't.

However there seems to be an understanding of the 2G on this board. May I suggest that this is because there are 'seasoned' supporters here. Most of the people with the chip are on their first or second time away (usually daytrippers), with no understanding of emigration, which despite its omnipresence in Ireland prior to the late nineties and two presidents born abroad, you have to blame the Irish education authorities for that. It's hardly suprising then that these people find us a culture shock.


Originally posted by gspain
Just to echo the above - the London Irish were travelling en masse in the 70's & 80's when it was anything but cool to follow the Irish football team.

Gary you've been around for a long time, and you are right. Ironically, I found having an English accent was less of a problem then than after following Ireland became fashionable


Originally posted by brine2
I was born in Ireland, but have lived in Holland for most of my life. People in Holland don't consider me Dutch at all, and I always call myself Irish and never Dutch. I'm a foreigner living in Holland, and that's the way it is. However, it annoys me when I go back to Ireland and I meet all these people with massive chips on their shoulders who don't consider you as Irish as themselves just because your accent isn't as thick as theirs or because you don't know one or two slang words that they do. It makes you feel like you don't belong anywhere anymore.

I've always wondered what the reaction from the 1G would be to the children of continental migration of the eighties. In Germany, although there were moves to change this, it was near impossible to obtain citizenship, even if you were born there, unless you had a German parent (exceptions being sportsmen/women that are 'fast - tracked' for citizenship). I always thought that as Holland has no imperial connection to Ireland (King Billy 3 excepted), you would escape what I regarded as the 'colonial mentality'. But hearing you, that argument goes out the window.


Originally posted by Junior
I was thinking more 'Puff Paddy...........'

Wasn't he going to marry my sister Jennny?;)

[Ozymandias]

Lads I have been reading all the posts and am amazed at some of the hassle people have had...I am Irish Born and Bred...Cork by the grace of GOd...I travel to alot of away games and meet Irish english and Irish american...never had a problem with them actually feel a bit jealous of the passion they have for a country that is not of their birth..I admire it and salute it....On away games in particular we are all as one and there for the same thing...I drink with everyone and feel more an affinity to the english lads and americans who wear the green than the Lads down the pub at home watching UTD and UTD only...******

Keep the green flag flying boys ....and Keep the faith

Slán Go Fóill

[Junior]

Originally posted by lopez


Wasn't he going to marry my sister Jennny?;)

Ahh yess, Jenny from da 'blackrock'......



coat and hat this time....:p