The Collective Stupidity of the Irish

[dahamsta]

This ties into the Budget thread somewhat but I think it's a valid standalone topic. The fact alone that we still have Fianna Fail in power should prove my point, but I'm sure people will argue that there aren't any valid alternatives out there. (I agree that they're all much of a muchness, but a look into history will prove that FG and Lab are traditionally the party to dig this country out of a hole that FF creates for us. It would have been nice if, for once, they were allowed to try running the country from the top instead of the bottom.) However in just the past week or so we've had two non-electoral issues crop up that prove the premise on their own imho.

College fees distractions. Batt O'Keeffe fires a comment into the atmostphere about fees. It's not a policy, not even a ministerial opinion per se, just a "thought". College students are up in arms, march on the streets, 6000 students in Cork alone. A week later the budget comes out and registration fees increase by more than 50%, and all is quiet on the western front. (At other levels, subs are gone, student-teacher ratios are increased, language support is reduced out of line with requirements. We don't hear anything about that either, except from the teacher themselves, and then not loudly enough.)

Medical card misdirection. Oh shame oh shame the world is ending, people earning enough to support their own health expenses are no longer entitled to a freebie. Of course there will be exceptions, but Gov.ie will back down. (Actually they already have (http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1019/budgethealth.html).) Yay us, our exhortations, indignation and protests won on the day, we're the best population ever. Meanwhile, every one of us has been hit with 1% more tax - it's not a levy, it is an income tax - by a government singularly incapable of managing it. (I don't object to more taxation per se, I object to giving it to these muppets.) They included the people least able to pay it, in fact those people will end up paying more than the rest of us. Are we out in the streets about that? No, not a one of us.

Fianna Fail pulled it off once again. They waggled the fingers on one hand and the population followed the fingers like hypnotised sheep, drooling and smiling to themselves. Meanwhile the other hand grabbed our jocks and knickers and pulled them up over our heads, in a full-blown national atomic wedgie. And they'll do it again next year, and probably the year after that, in time to start softening us up for another election.

There should have been a vote of no confidence last week. The government should have fallen. We should be facing into elections.

Collectively, we're up there with the Austrians (http://www.france24.com/en/20081018-thousands-joerg-haider-funeral-austria-klagenfurt). We're dimwits. We're retards. We should be in a home, receiving special care.

Sorry to be so negative, but seriously, god help us. We're idiots.

adam

[mypost]

In all the fiasco over the medical card, it must be remembered that it's not the only tax imposed in the budget. The airline, car parking, and income taxes are all just as damaging, and any one of them should be capable of bringing a government down on it's own.

But then again, there are too many federalists in this country, who do what they're told by the government, rather than stand up for themselves. And in another election tomorrow, they'd be "ordered" to vote FF. They would and the vicious circle continues.

[jebus]

I've been saying similar for a while now, this country and it's electorate's short term outlook will drive people out of this country I think (certainly looking that way for myself anyway). I just can't see how Fianna Fail keep getting away with this, in any other country they would have been brought down by now. Even leaving their newer policies aside you have Mary Harney attempting to move us into a two tier health system with ridiculous plans like closing the Ennis, Nenagh and St.Johns hospital in the Limerick/Clare region and increasing the numbers in the already under staffed Mid West Regional by 90,000 patients. All of this is of course to get people to go private and bump up profits, it really is enough to make you spit at Fianna Fail voters to be honest. I don't know, there's so much more to talk about with this government that it's hard to know where to start really.

They genuinely should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done in the last decade, I somehow doubt they are though

[superfrank]

FF and their voters don't care.

My grandparents are both lifelong FF voters and they'll be affected by the medical card withdrawal. Though, they'll still vote FF next time around.

The student fees one is interesting. There is a protest for next Wednesday on O'Connell Street (that's right, the smartarsed students who'll be running the country in twenty/thirty years don't even know where the Gov do their business). A lot of the complaints about the fee re-introduction are ill-informed, imo. Current students won't be affected, afaik. It'll be prospective students. If most of the protesters knew this, they'd stop protesting about it.

However, the registration issue WILL affect current students. A sharp increase, €685 in two years, has lead to some of my friends saying they won't be going back to college next year as they think they won't be able to afford it.

My problem with the fees proposal (although I imagine it'll be withdrawn soon enough) is that it'll discourage people going/sending their kids to college. Bad news, imo, with the country in recession.

I've always hated FF but the latest batch of idiots (Ahern, Cowen, Lenihan, O'Keeffe, O'Dea, et al) are really damaging this country's future.

I've also lost a great amount of respect for the Greens. They should pull out of Gov, imo.

[OneRedArmy]

Superfrank you make a good point.

I've always been mildly amused by the amount of people who, knowing I have family from the North, around the time of power sharing/Assembly elections look down their noses and make references to the naked tribalism of Northern politics (which are broadly true) as if somehow Irish politics is some kind of meritocratic utopia.

The reality is that for a not insignificant amount of the electorate, its still about Dev, Collins etc. (or similarly irrelevant issues), which when you think about it, is absolutely mindblowing in 2008.

You then have another large chunk of electorate who drank the FF Kool Aid in the good times and are now having second thoughts about free marketeerism and are searching for a scapegoat to blame for their inability to meet the mortgage payments on their investment property and the condo in Bulgaria...

The medical card farce is simply the latest symptom of incompetent government by politicians who aren't particularly bright and are allowed to legislate for short-term gain and re-election by an electorate who are very easily and repeatedly fooled.

The whole set-up of the medical system is ridiculous. We are stuck in some kind of perpetual limbo between a European universal provision system and a US fully private system, with temporary lunges to the former (generally before elections) without proper funding which are soon reversed (as we are seeing now) when someone realises the sums don't add up. The end result is a healthcare system that is poor value for money and wholly unreflective of the international economic position of the country.

Thats only one example of poor Government.

So yes, we are idiots. We get what we deserve.

[dahamsta]

The reality is that for a not insignificant amount of the electorate, its still about Dev, Collins etc. (or similarly irrelevant issues), which when you think about it, is absolutely mindblowing in 2008.I think if it was actually still about those things we might be better off. Sadly, it's more about how Mammy and Daddy voted, what some ignoramus in the pub said last week, and what lying media whores like Paul Williams and Kevin Myers say. If these people educated themselves in some way about what's really going on, we might get somewhere.

adam

[superfrank]

Agree completely with you there adam.

Although, the pro/anti-treaty psyche still dictates how my grandparents vote (I have ancestors who were members of the IRA & the "Irregulars").

I know a lot of people my age who, when voting, usually went with the family party or used one soundbyte to justify their vote.

The one thing about this attitude that I'm happy with is that a lot of my peers will more than likely vote against FF in the next election over the whole fees proposal. :)

[jmurphyc]

FF should definitely be facing a vote of no confidence. This budget was an absolute disgrace. If they want to generate revenue for themselves they should be taxing in the right areas and taxing the people who, whilst it may inconvenience them, can afford it. Calling the 1% thing a levy is a joke. Would people be up in arms if it was called a tax? FF seem to be getting away with preying on the most vulnerable members of our society.

As for the student fees debate at the moment, I'm beginning to think that it would be better if they're brought in and just means tested at a high threshold (and hopefully not be tweaked as time goes by). We really do seem to be focussing on the wrong areas.

Sadly, FF know that they'll get away with it. By the time the next election comes along we may well be out of the current financial crisis and everyone will have forgotten their previous incompetence and disregard for the people who voted for them. The only hope - as someone else said - is that the Greens pull out, but I'd say they're probably feeling too cosy in power right now to jeopardise their future.

[Angus]

I think if it was actually still about those things we might be better off. Sadly, it's more about how Mammy and Daddy voted, what some ignoramus in the pub said last week, and what lying media whores like Paul Williams and Kevin Myers say. If these people educated themselves in some way about what's really going on, we might get somewhere.

adam

Like most here, I echo the sentiment. However, I have little faith that it will change materially.

Most organised countries have political systems which arevirtually impossible to permeate - the US and UK have a 2 party system, in effect, who control everything. The US in particular is the classic cartel where the Dems or GOP control everything. There is widespread electoral fraud and aabuse in the US - just for the record, let us not pretend that this is anything to do with Fox and Acorn - the GOP invented electoral fraud - with the classic tactic of having no functioning voting machines in poorer and black areas

I can see FF being in opposition after the next election but that does not change the issue - the issue is one of the public at large being disenfranchised.

Tipping up once every four or five years to tick a box is not democracy and is certainly not representative.

The Greens got less than 5% of the vote in the last election yet are in Government - read that again - 96% of the public decided to vote other than for the Greens and they are in Government.

I know our system is what it is but please drop the pretence that this is anything other than anti democratic.

One of my favourite stats is in the UK in 2005, the Tories got more votes in England than Labour, but got 92 seats less - did anybody say anything ? No, because soon this facism will benefit the Tories

In our lifetime, the only example we have seen where true people generated change happened was the Eastern Bloc countries in the 1980's

Adam - you start the "revolution party" and I will be right behind you - but ensure you have no skeletons because they will come after us with everything they have...

[bennocelt]

I agree
What really gets my goat is all the people marching up and down the street moaning about FF, etc (like the nurses in the last election) but I would bet my bottom dollar more than half of them voted for FF in the last election

The ordinary people of ireland - the electorate - also have to take the can - how the hell did FF get in for 3 elections - the people voted them in:mad:

having said that FG make me cringe (apart from Leo Vard and bruton)

[jebus]

I agree
What really gets my goat is all the people marching up and down the street moaning about FF, etc (like the nurses in the last election) but I would bet my bottom dollar more than half of them voted for FF in the last election

The ordinary people of ireland - the electorate - also have to take the can - how the hell did FF get in for 3 elections - the people voted them in:mad:

having said that FG make me cringe (apart from Leo Vard and bruton)

Was about to name those two FG candidates as reasons why I'd vote for them over FF any day of the week. Bruton knows his stuff, as does Leo, and both aren't afraid to stick their necks out and lay out their future plans. Remember Bertie getting upset because someone as new to the Dail as Leo had the audacity to question his integrity :rolleyes:

[Billsthoughts]

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

[Dodge]

Its not an irish phenomenon either.

[jebus]

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

We all know why they get elected, and we all know that the alternative isn't up to much, but at this stage what do Fianna Fail stand for (besides greed of course)? Do you not think it's time we ditch the argument of 'sure the other crowd would do the same' that has festered in this country and actually look at Fianna Fail's attempts to introduce a two tier society in Ireland, their undermining of Irish neutrality, their own personal corruption, and their utter inability to formulate a Lisbon Treaty strategy and say enough is enough? Even just to try and shake up their own party?

[Billsthoughts]

I dont vote Fianna Fail. Never have and never will.

[mypost]

We all know why they get elected, and we all know that the alternative isn't up to much, but at this stage what do Fianna Fail stand for (besides greed of course)? Do you not think it's time we ditch the argument of 'sure the other crowd would do the same' that has festered in this country?

As said before, we have elections every 5 years, which is basically a ref on FF's record over the time. It not shouldn't be "the opposition aren't up to much", it's "have FF performed up to scratch?" If not, punish them. :confused:


The Greens got less than 5% of the vote in the last election yet are in Government - read that again - 96% of the public decided to vote other than for the Greens and they are in Government.

Even less people voted for the PD's, yet who ended up in government? :confused::rolleyes:

[beautifulrock]

Sinmple fact is you get the Goevernment you deserve, only positive I can take from this discussion is that at least everyone seems to have voted. FF are not up to much for sure but you are having a laugh if you think FG would do any better.

[OneRedArmy]

Sinmple fact is you get the Goevernment you deserve, only positive I can take from this discussion is that at least everyone seems to have voted. FF are not up to much for sure but you are having a laugh if you think FG would do any better.I think its been long enough since they've been in power at this stage to make it impossible to say this given the turnover in the parliamentary party etc.

I'm not saying they would necessarily do any better, but surely any change at this stage would be welcome?

Of course I'd never vote for the blueshirts (see my post above ;) )

[dahamsta]

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.
(I agree that they're all much of a muchness, but a look into history will prove that FG and Lab are traditionally the party to dig this country out of a hole that FF creates for us. It would have been nice if, for once, they were allowed to try running the country from the top instead of the bottom.)Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling. And, imho, damaging. Do us a favour - do yourself a favour - and stop throwing out the same old crap lines, we're tired of hearing them from people that should know better. Add something of substance to your post - anything - and make it worth reading.

adam

[Billsthoughts]

Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling. And, imho, damaging. Do us a favour - do yourself a favour - and stop throwing out the same old crap lines, we're tired of hearing them from people that should know better. Add something of substance to your post - anything - and make it worth reading.

adam


If history have proven anything its that the coalition govs just do the exact same as soon as they get into power. from nepotism to taxing childrens shoes.

Its a perfectly valid point to make in a thread that was reading like a 16 year olds rant against the establishment.

seriously adam, you dont have to personally abuse someone just cause they disagree with your narrow little world view.

[dahamsta]

I may be having a rant at the establishment, but at least I put more time and thought into it than this redundant drivel:


Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.You might as well be quoting The Star. Tax on children's shoes for god's sake, come into the present. :rolleyes:

That's not personal abuse btw, that's calling you on your sound bytes.

[BohsPartisan]

There is hope though, I came from a staunch FF family (on my ma's side - da's English) and not only have I never voted FF, my ma hates them now as well. I know quite a few people like that, so it is changing, albeit slowly. The days of FF overall majorities are long gone. Problem is there is no credible alternative that would be much different in power.

[jebus]

There is hope though, I came from a staunch FF family (on my ma's side - da's English) and not only have I never voted FF, my ma hates them now as well. I know quite a few people like that, so it is changing, albeit slowly. The days of FF overall majorities are long gone. Problem is there is no credible alternative that would be much different in power.

Yeah but you morphed into a Socialist, it's like coming off a crack addiction by self harming :p

[bennocelt]

I dont vote Fianna Fail. Never have and never will.

likewise , but was thinking if there is an election in the morning I might actually vote for them - let them try and clean up their mess

By the way did anyone see the Green TD (Paul Gogarty?)on V Browne show last nite - man he was awful, Browne really ate into him, looks like the Greens don't have any backbone

[Dodge]

Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling.

And yet they got re-elected. billsthoughts has already said he doesn't vote FF, he's just pointing out that the majority of voters need more than "They can't be as bad as FF" to vote anyone else in. It wasn't like he was promoting FF.

And your rant did come off like a teenage tantrum

[Billsthoughts]

I may be having a rant at the establishment, but at least I put more time and thought into it than this redundant drivel:

You might as well be quoting The Star. Tax on children's shoes for god's sake, come into the present. :rolleyes:

That's not personal abuse btw, that's calling you on your sound bytes.

.....In your opinion....

I merely chose two examples that came to my head were the opposition hardly covered themselves in glory. Sitting Governments are easy targets.

I actually think Kenny is much underated and unfairly maligned. But I dont see any major policy diffs with FF at a time when there is huge scope for them. So thats why I wouldnt be falling over myself to vote for them.

[dahamsta]

And yet they got re-elected. billsthoughts has already said he doesn't vote FF, he's just pointing out that the majority of voters need more than "They can't be as bad as FF" to vote anyone else in. It wasn't like he was promoting FF.Seems like a perfectly logical hypothesis to me.


And your rant did come off like a teenage tantrumPerhaps it did, but responding with sound bytes achieves nothing, as does your comment. If you disagree with the premise, rebut it.

[mypost]

.....In your opinion....

I actually think Kenny is much underated and unfairly maligned. But I dont see any major policy diffs with FF at a time when there is huge scope for them. So thats why I wouldnt be falling over myself to vote for them.

We have elections, that are there to punish governments for poor performances. They're not a cosmetic rubber-stamping exercise for FF every 5 years. Continuing to vote for them, because the opposition "aren't up to much" retains the status quo, and the same failed policies. Why should it change, when the electorate just keep backing them at the ballot box? :confused:

[Dodge]

You're missing the point mypost. saying "we have to get someone better in" is all well and fine, unless there si nobody better to bring in. Whether you think there is or not is immaterial to the majority of people. The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Oh and elections aren't a referendum on whether the government is good or bad.

[dahamsta]

That's suggesting - actually it's not suggesting, it's actually saying - that the alternative is worse than the incumbent, do you honestly believe that or are you soundbyting too Dodge? I honestly can't believe that anyone could honestly believe that. The only thing the incumbents could possibly be admired for is their talent at misdirection. Is that really something we should be admiring?

Oh and elections aren't referendums on whether governments good or bad, they're referendums on whether representatives are good or bad. You could argue it's much of a muchness.

adam

[Dodge]

The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Thats the only comment I made. Are you saying that FG and labour aren't contributing factors in FF getting elected?

In the interest of openness, I voted Labour last time out, with lower preferences to other candidates. None of FF, FG or PD got anything from me


they're referendums on whether representatives are good or bad.
No, they're not. Its a choice between potential representatives, and their parties. What billsthoughts alluded to earlier is that while FF may be abject failures to some, if the local FFer gets enough funding for a local project (for example), he could well be elected again. Even if he didn't do much, if the other guy doesn't provide a better alternative, why would someone vote for him. It mightn't be a choice between good or bad, it could be between bad and less bad...

[pete]

I am sure it is not an Irish issue.

Everyone & I don' think I am exaggerating bitches and moans about FF but I never hear anyone actually admit they vow for them.

Irish politics has so much baggage and history that I don't think FG or Labour could grab power for more than a few years at a time as too many people will never vote for them. FG have farmers image & Labour have quasi ties to the unions so too many vested interests.

I agree with comments above that Bruton & Leo Varadkar have improved their public profile in recent weeks. Bruton has always been good on economics but Varadkar is a rising star.

It is time for a new party without the baggage of civil war politics. The PDs tried it but too much FF baggage. In Italy Berlusconi created a party from scratch so it can be done - his politics are irrelevant. Get a collection of the best independent business minds in the country together with a big enough majority to shun all the special interests.

[OneRedArmy]

saying "we have to get someone better in" is all well and fine, unless there si nobody better to bring in. Whether you think there is or not is immaterial to the majority of people. The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Oh and elections aren't a referendum on whether the government is good or bad.As I said above, I don't know how anyone can say with any certainty that the alternatives are no better.

They may give the appearance that they may be no better, but given the turnover in TDs since the last time an alternative Govt was in power, we don't honestly know how they would fare.

Semantics maybe, but I honestly believe we are at the level where they couldn't be any worse so deserve a chance on that basis, regardless of how well they run their campaigns or are perceived.

However, all this said, I disagree with whoever above said FF would win a election in morning. When people start getting hit in their pockets (as they are now), thats when change comes. Its rarely driven by policy or ideological reasons as it should be and invariably, because it only happens when poor government runs its logical course, is inherently reactive and too late to reverse the damage done by the incumbents.

Ergo, people are stupid.....

[jebus]

It is time for a new party without the baggage of civil war politics. The PDs tried it but too much FF baggage. In Italy Berlusconi created a party from scratch so it can be done - his politics are irrelevant. Get a collection of the best independent business minds in the country together with a big enough majority to shun all the special interests.

Good in theory, but the best independent business minds in the country will have their own special interests. Face it people democracy doesn't work :p

[Angus]

Good in theory, but the best independent business minds in the country will have their own special interests. Face it people democracy doesn't work :p

Sir, I humbly disagree - democracy works, problem is we do not live in a democracy. Us tipping up every four years to decide on a list of people where we have no control or say over how those list of people will come together to form an administration is not democracy.

Theoretically you or I could set up our own party and challenge and while that is theoretically impossible, it is deliberately made financially out of reach.

We voted on Lisbon - but our vote is accepted only as an opening offer. We have no say about what referenda are put to us - this is not democracy - it is not that far from facism

[jebus]

But this form of democracy is what we have created for ourselves throughout the past 2 centuries. Arguably democracy has been on the slide since John Mills (with help of course) conceived it in England nearly 200 years ago and Thomas Jefferson took it on in America. The majority of democracy's early thinkers all held the belief that the system needed to be reformed almost every generation (which makes people who look at original constitutions as sacred seem ridiculous). But if Democracy is to change with the ages then this is what we have given ourselves as modern democracy

[Angus]

But this form of democracy is what we have created for ourselves throughout the past 2 centuries. Arguably democracy has been on the slide since John Mills (with help of course) conceived it in England nearly 200 years ago and Thomas Jefferson took it on in America. The majority of democracy's early thinkers all held the belief that the system needed to be reformed almost every generation (which makes people who look at original constitutions as sacred seem ridiculous). But if Democracy is to change with the ages then this is what we have given ourselves as modern democracy

Again, I nearly agree - I would respectfully suggest that we have not created it - it has imposed upon us - I agree that we have allowed it be foisted upon us by our collective consistent acceptance of unacceptable liberties.

You and I basically agree - this is one of those esoteric discussions over fine wines and belgian chocolates.....

[Billsthoughts]

However, all this said, I disagree with whoever above said FF would win a election in morning. When people start getting hit in their pockets (as they are now), thats when change comes. Its rarely driven by policy or ideological reasons as it should be and invariably, because it only happens when poor government runs its logical course, is inherently reactive and too late to reverse the damage done by the incumbents.

Ergo, people are stupid.....

the facts dont back up the above statement at all.
in 22 elections since 1937 FF have not formed the govt in the immediate aftermath on only 5 occasions. their percentage of the vote has also remained consistent throughout that whole period even when out of govt.

In response to all the other posters...you are blaming FF for getting elected instead of blaming the two main oppostion parties for not providing a creditable alternative to voters.

In response to people saying the opposition couldnt be any worse - im sure your aware in 92 FF under haughey were just as bad. Labour did a great job of highlighting this and got a lot of extra seats(mostly FG ones) as a result. First thing they did ? go into coalition with FF.

[jebus]

Again, I nearly agree - I would respectfully suggest that we have not created it - it has imposed upon us - I agree that we have allowed it be foisted upon us by our collective consistent acceptance of unacceptable liberties.

You and I basically agree - this is one of those esoteric discussions over fine wines and belgian chocolates.....

Cause if it's not fine wines :mad:

[pete]

Face it people democracy doesn't work :p

Democracy is deeply flawed as stupid people get a vote too!

Analysis of the Stupid Voter in the US (http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=187570&title=the-stupid-vote) but true of every country, just swap the names. :D

Not sure Presidential style any better but maybe Parliamentary politics is flawed? Parliaments ensure you get someone such as Brian Lenihan with couple of years Justice Minister experience & no economic experience whatsoever apparently running the country. Is he in a position to question Department of Finance analysis?

[bennocelt]

Would you think Ganley and Liberatas (spelling?:confused:) might be a new option

As someone said there are a lot of people who would never give FG and labour votes - no matter what
FG-farmers party - blueshirts
Labour - a lot have never forgiven them for the FF pact, also it seems they have forgot about their roots

[pete]

Would you think Ganley and Liberatas (spelling?:confused:) might be a new option


I presume a joke?

Ganley preaches about the lack of transparency in the EU yet he has so far been able to account for his own funding. Libertas say they are not anti EU yet have aligned themselves with Euro skeptics across Europe. As far as I can tell Libertas don't actually stand for anything besides anti Lisbon Treaty - I can not tell why they are opposed to it as were willing to align with any group from religious far right to peace campaigners to get the result they wanted.

[Reality Bites]

Rename Thread the collective stupidy of Cowen and Lenihan, Is there any Government with as poor political savvy Individuals as these two idiots

[Bluebeard]

Is there any Government with as poor political savvy Individuals as these two idiots

Here is a conveniently compiled list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_cabinets_since_1919) - start from 19th listed, and follow through...;)

[mypost]

Ganley preaches about the lack of transparency in the EU yet he has so far been able to account for his own funding.

:D


As far as I can tell Libertas don't actually stand for anything besides anti Lisbon Treaty - I can not tell why they are opposed to it.

There's a hint in the Libert-as name.

[Macy]

Anyone watch the programme last night on TG4 about the Soviets in Ireland? Things could've been very different if it had developed into a natural left and right.

To me the medical card wasn't an issue of wealth - it was the principal. And yet again the right wingers in FF and Harney have their way. As for alternatives, well didn't the FG/ Labour alternative propose a move towards universal health insurance?

Whatever about Bruton, Varadkar is a nincompoop. Just because he shouts loud and with confidence, doesn't mean it's not a stream of illinformed crap coming out of his mouth.

If there was an election tomorrow I'd nearly vote FF for the first time ever. Let them stew in their mess - long term it'd destroy them. Sometimes you have to think of the greater good.

[kingdom hoop]

Most organised countries have political systems which are virtually impossible to permeate


Its not an irish phenomenon either.


I am sure it is not an Irish issue.



Face it people democracy doesn't work :p

Just quickly reading down the thread it would seem a common trend is that governments may be inherently likely to fail, it's just a question of how bad they are. So for some a more apposite thread-title may be something like, 'The Stupidity of the Collective'. This thesis suggests that a centrally organised government's performance is best adjudged along The Stupidity Continuum (or, if I may be so jaunty, The Kingdom Hoop Government Assessment Scale); whereby actions range from a relatively benign, best we can hope for '0--a mild stupidity on a level with Roddy Collins--country still functions but most people unsatisfied' to a catastrophic '12--severe derangement, government exhibits the prowess of a month-old baby--country in melt-down, practically all people grossly unsatisfied bar the members of government who continue to coo and gurgle like detached insensitive imbeciles'. So, unfortunately, I think the incomprehensible events of the past week would have to be placed at around 8 on that scale.

[John83]

...a centrally organised government's performance is best adjudged along The Stupidity Continuum ... whereby actions range from a relatively benign, best we can hope for '0--a mild stupidity on a level with Roddy Collins--country still functions but most people unsatisfied' to a catastrophic '12--severe derangement on a level with Paul Doolin...
There, fixed it for you. ;)

[geysir]

History shows a few examples that Fine Gael can be ruthless with slashing public spending in hardship times.
If you subscribe to the belief that the Banking system is basically fine, the Economic Boom was actually real (not just 90% debt on such things like inflated house values), that the State should bail out/keep alive the big investors and the large group of people who have 10 or 15% of the available wealth should bear the brunt of the worse effects of recession, then there is an argument that Fine Gael might carry that off better than Fianna Fail and do a better job of hoodwinking the people.

Unfortunately neither of the big political parties would succeed at rebuilding the economy.
The Irish people have used up all those debt cards that the Celtic Tiger was based upon
and there just happens to be a global crisis. There is nothing in their platforms to suggest anything more than hyperbole, slashing public spending and that basically the economic system is fine.

Though I read today that Fine Gael will for the first time in our history regard Fraud as a crime, offer as a central part of their platform that the Finance Regulator should be sacked without compensation, that a special fraud squad be set up with some of the best investigative prosecutors along with a large bounty to attract whistleblowers, will build rock solid cases against fraudsters, with emergency legislation similar to what exists allowing the seizing of assets belonging to drug dealers.
Then again, maybe I was dreaming.

[pete]

Though I read today that Fine Gael will for the first time in our history regard Fraud as a crime, offer as a central part of their platform that the Finance Regulator should be sacked without compensation, that a special fraud squad be set up with some of the best investigative prosecutors along with a large bounty to attract whistleblowers, will build rock solid cases against fraudsters, with emergency legislation similar to what exists allowing the seizing of assets belonging to drug dealers.
Then again, maybe I was dreaming.

Would be interesting to see that. FG did setup the Criminal Assets Bureau so they do have a track record. Finance Regulator definitely should be sacked as he failed in his job & cannot be trusted to run the bail out scheme competently.