Paul McKeon's Observer

[Cityace]

I finally got a reply from the referee observer at the Bohs GAme With Paul McKeon.I know its old news now but it took this length if time for them to reply.I blanked out my name.



Dear ******,With reference to your complaint re the standard of
refereeing in the recent eircom league game CorkCity vBohemians.I was
the referee observer for this game and overall the referee had a good
game.The problem here really in my opinion is that you are looking at
games as a supporter who is only interested in your team achieving the
right result which is quite understandable,but I as a neutral observer
can assess the referee team and give an overall view and report to the
referees and the F.A.I on all games.On reports received over the past
two seasons both in eircom league and U.E.F.A.games this referees
reports have been excellent.It is my belief that the public should be
informed about the laws of the game and any changes to those laws at the
beginning of each season through the media or the club programme.I as
the person responsible for refereeing in this country would be willing
to meet with any supporters club within the eircom league as I have done
in the past and exchange views and give the you the benefit of the
referees experiences in these games.
Yours sincerely
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Needham Pat Kelly
Sent: 24 September 2003 08:08
To: Pat Kelly
Cc: Michael Hayes
Subject: FW: The standard of refereeing


Hi Pat,

Please find below comments from a member of the public re Cork City v
Bohs. I don't know what other course of action he plans to take or if
there were any issues arising from the game.

If you need any other info, let me know.

All the best,

Andy

[Ref]

must resist temptation to say something.....

:)



cityace, what did you expect him to say?

:confused:

[SÓC]

Fair play to the fella for replying. What he should do is on behalf of refs is send a article or contribution to programs and fanzines.

It would be interesting to hear their side of the story.

[niamh]

A lot of the time fans are blinded by their biased though. A 50-50 ball is always City's if you're wearing a City shirt. While I don't think many of the refs in the league are great, most of them are not as bad as made out by the fans.

[Cityace]

Yea i thanked him for replying.Otherwise its a load of bull.

Oh,well.............

[Ref]

you're entitled to your opinion.

but the man knows what hes doing.

(end of my contribution to this discussion).

[A face]

Originally posted by Cityace
Dear ******,With reference to your complaint re the standard of
refereeing in the recent eircom league game CorkCity vBohemians.I was
the referee observer for this game and overall the referee had a good
game.The problem here really in my opinion is that you are looking at
games as a supporter who is only interested in your team achieving the
right result which is quite understandable,but I as a neutral observer
can assess the referee team and give an overall view and report to the
referees and the F.A.I on all games.On reports received over the past
two seasons both in eircom league and U.E.F.A.games this referees
reports have been excellent.It is my belief that the public should be
informed about the laws of the game and any changes to those laws at the
beginning of each season through the media or the club programme.I as
the person responsible for refereeing in this country would be willing
to meet with any supporters club within the eircom league as I have done
in the past and exchange views and give the you the benefit of the
referees experiences in these games.
Yours sincerely


Looks like he has a standard response to all complaints, only to change the name of the teams. Kinda lame really. It doesn't leave much room for hope. :rolleyes:

[shedite]

Originally posted by Cityace
I blanked out my name.
....

All the best,

Andy

Is you're name Andy by any chance???

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Ref
you're entitled to your opinion.

but the man knows what hes doing.
he quite clearly does NOT know what he's doing. If he knew what he was doing, Jim O'Neill would never blow a whistle again. this you're not a neutral stuff is just an easy way out. I have been at a number of games as a neutral and still left angry with the ref's performance. The fact is that there are several very very poor referees in this league, and anyone who denies it is a liar.

[joeSoap]

Originally posted by shedite
Is you're name Andy by any chance???

Figure it out...illiterate tool!!!

[Ref]

Originally posted by Éanna
he quite clearly does NOT know what he's doing. If he knew what he was doing, Jim O'Neill would never blow a whistle again. this you're not a neutral stuff is just an easy way out. I have been at a number of games as a neutral and still left angry with the ref's performance. The fact is that there are several very very poor referees in this league, and anyone who denies it is a liar.

i knew i'd get to ya with my last post.

:cool:

[patsh]

I have to say I find your attitude to be smarmy to say the least, ref.
Somebody does something more than just mouthing off on this mb and complains to the right people. Your attitude of "what do you expect" is appalling, given that you are a referee. The inference is that refs don't care what complaints come in, they'll just ignore them anyway.
If it makes even one referee be more conscientious in future, surely a complaint is worthwhile.
Most fans would be biased towards decisions by refs and all refs are not as bad as we make out, but burying your head in the sand about the terrible standard of refereeinghelps nobody at all.

[Ref]

sorry if i upset anyone.

what gets to me is that people can't accept that huge steps are being taken to improve the standard of refereeing in this country.

but look lads as i have said theres no point in complaining as the assessors are there to do their job.

and i'm particularly annoyed with regard to people complaining about Paul McKeon as opposed to other referees as Paul McKeon is one of the top referees in the country at the moment without a shadow of a doubt.

speaking as a referee of course there are referees that i haven't been impressed with but Paul McKeon would not be one of them.


The inference is that refs don't care what complaints come in, they'll just ignore them anyway.

my favourite phrase rose tinted glasses comes to mind yet again.

i keep going over this but please, the assessors deal with referees who aren't performing up to scratch, who don't pass regular fitness tests, who don't train regularly at the various locatioins around the country, who conduct themselves professionally on and off the pitch.

it is not easy to get on the eircom league panel and it is not easy to stay on it.

to then get from first division to premier league is even more difficult.

appreciate the effort people put in even if some referees aren't to your liking. somebody has to be a referee!

:cool:

[patsh]

Originally posted by Ref
what gets to me is that people can't accept that huge steps are being taken to improve the standard of refereeing in this country.

and i'm particularly annoyed with regard to people complaining about Paul McKeon as opposed to other referees as Paul McKeon is one of the top referees in the country at the moment without a shadow of a doubt.

speaking as a referee of course there are referees that i haven't been impressed with but Paul McKeon would not be one of them.

What gets to most people is the continued defence of McKeon.
He is defended constantly by the refs in this country, so all fans are wrong.
From a City point of view, how come nothing was done about him after the Waterford v City game?
He gave a penalty, nobody knew why, and then gave 3 different explanations for why he gave it. Now it could have been a genuine mistake, so why not come out afterwards and admit it?
The incident is recorded on film, can be seen anytime he wants to and a simple apology would be well thought of.
If it was not a mistake, how can he carry on the way he did?
Dolan was not even allowed ask a question about it, gets a suspension, McKeon is allowed make all sorts of charges against Dolan, and he gets away scot free.
Refs make mistakes too, yet this is NEVER acknowledged. The assessor system may seem to be working to referees, but it is patently not working to the fans who pay the money to see their teams each week.

[SÓC]

I agree with most of what Ref has just said but still I think there needs to be more info, given by the Ref's themselves.

Like earlier in the season City played Bohs in Dalymount, the game was a 1-1 draw. In that game there was a clear peno the linesman saw it, the TV replays afterwards proved it was a peno. I think Jimmy O'Neill was the Ref. Was he punished for making such a howler? We dont know was he dropped or was any action taken. The League annouces suspensions for players, why not do the same with Refs if he have games like that.

Also on McKeon in that recent game, 3 different media sources (2 Dublin based) say we should have had a peno in the match.

[Cityace]

Originally posted by shedite
Is you're name Andy by any chance???

No it isnt, that was the name of the guy who forwarded it to him .

[Ref]

as i said referees are dealt with if they do something wrong be it on or off the pitch be it with training or seminars.

look it's not going to happen where the eL release the latest suspensions and at the end of the list you'll see Jim O'Neill suspended for a month.

that ain't going to happen folks.

a referee will be disciplined if need be but it will be dealt with in house.

if a player of any club has a bad game will that club announce that they're suspending or resting that player for a number of weeks?

i don't think that's ever happened.


--


referees make mistakes.

they know it.

we all know it.

maybe jim o'neill and paul mckeon should have given penalties. who knows?

at the next game if somebody wants to do it count the number of decisions the referee makes.

include what colour jersey he wears, whether or not the pitch is playable, the nets are ok, the ball is ok.

include how many throws, free kicks, goal kicks, penalty kicks he awards.

include how long he decides each half will be.

include when he shows yellow and red cards.

include when he decides to speak to a player instead of showing a card.

etc etc etc.

count up all those decisions.

it comes to..........a lot.

can any referee get EVERY decision right?

[razor]

Originally posted by Ref
can any referee get EVERY decision right?

I think you meant ANY decision.

[tiktok]

Originally posted by Ref
if a player of any club has a bad game will that club announce that they're suspending or resting that player for a number of weeks?

i don't think that's ever happened.

No, but if a player is consistently bad over a longer period he will not get his game.


Originally posted by Ref
count up all those decisions.
it comes to..........a lot.
can any referee get EVERY decision right?

with all due respect ref, much of the examples you gave are topics that will be decided before the game kicks off, jerseys, pitch...etc.etc. and i accept refs are human, but isn't getting every decision right the target that should be aimed for rather than being held up as some lofty unattainable goal.

[patsh]

Seems like you are saying that refs have to much to do, ref.
If thats the case, why can't ye change the system?
If they get paid, why shouldn't they be suspended in public?
Players and managers do, often with no comeback against the ref who punished them.
And yes, referees are supposed to get all their decisions right.
If they don't there must be a provision for them to somehow right the wrong. But the excuse is always accepted that "refs are only human" yet that excuse is NEVER allowed for players or managers.
Players/managers are human too, yet when they get excited at a game and say something in the heat of the moment, they can get hammered for it. If a ref makes a balls of a decision in the heat of the moment, one that could cost a club money or a title, nothing happens to him, and if it does, it's somehing trivial behind closed doors.
No matter what way you spin it, ref, the playing pitch is not level !
excuse the pun!

[A face]

Ref .... Can i just run something by you ?

Just say for example that a player ... any player, pick one out of the hat .... Say George O'Callaghan.

Just say he is on the pitch playing a game, getting on with it ... looking for the points and a ref ..... any ref pick one out of the hat .... Say Jim O'Neill.

Just say he was reffing and during the course of the game, he kept repeatedly saying to the player, in this example GO'C, "You think you are the man dont you .... you think your great dont you, i'll soften your cough for you" or words to that effect. And during the course of this game, the ref handed out two yellows to this player, resulting in him being sent off. A desicion that, in this example would even confuse the opposing fans.

Just say .... for example if something like that happened, just say a slim chance that took place .... what comeback does that player have.

Does he have a leg to stand on ??

[James]

adding to afaces totally hypothetical example

say just say it happened in a ground made up 99% of away fans who howled for murder at every city challenge.. and say that after the game you go around and ask ppl hypothetically why they thought this hypothetical player say GOC to contuinue the example was sent off and NO-BODY knew, not the player / team manager fans from either of the hypothetical teams..including a great many of the home fans who were as baffled by some of this hypothetical ref's decisions.... and not for the 1st time either..

[Ref]

well hypothetically speaking :) of course,

i heard a very similar hypothetical story from Eanna whilst watching the Cork City v UL game in UL yesterday.

(hasten to add i just about got out of Limerick alive.)

in Eanna's hypothetical story the hypothetical manager had a real go at the assessor (hes not hypothetical) over the incident.

the question posed by A Face is Does he have a leg to stand on ??

the hypothetical problem lies with the league's rules here as Pat Dolan has stated.

2 yellows and you're out of the next game. when the next game is not even two full working days away theres not a lot that can be done.

anyway you can't appeal a suspension for 2 yellows in most competitions so i can't see it coming in here.

a referee can as far as i know rescind a yellow if he so wishes but that didn't happen here.

if the ref was winding the player up then thats not on but players do say things afterwards to deflect blame from themselves.

as i said to Eanna, a lot of referees talk to players all the way through games or just to certain players to make sure players know that the referee is there and awake.

i do it all the time!

probably nothing more than that.