Would this work [Archive]

don ramo

14/10/2008, 7:33 PM

Would it be a bad idea

An 18 team league consisting
1: Bohemians
2: St. Pats
3: Derry City
4: Cork City
5: Sligo Rovers
6: Shamrock Rovers
7: Drogheda United
8: Bray Wanderers
9: Finn Harps
10: Cobh Ramblers
11: U.C.D.
12: Galway
13: Shelbourne
14: Dundalk
15: Waterford United
16: Sporting Fingal
17: Limerick 37
18: Monaghan United

The first division would then contain 12 teams

1: Longford Town
2: Wexford Youths
3: Athlone Town
4: Kildare County
5: Tullamore
6: Kilkenny City
7: Salthill Devon
8: Mervue United
9: Bohs A
10: Pats A
11: Derry A
12: Cork A

i would say the top 4 teams only should have to field an A team, based in the fact there the biggest and strongest clubs, and they should play in the first division to develope there younger players better, as you would consider the biggers clubs will draw the best young talent,

no A championship, the country isnt at a level to sustain 3 leagues, no matter what size

brianw82

14/10/2008, 7:38 PM

Could you not have updated one of the million other threads with ideas about 16/18 team premier divisions instead of creating a new one?

Paddyfield

14/10/2008, 7:44 PM

What if Cork A, Bohs A, Pat's A and Derry A were promoted? It would bring a new meaning to the word 'derby' if Bohs were playing Bohs A.

fionnsci

14/10/2008, 7:51 PM

Swap Wexford for Monaghan and then we'll talk. I personally dont think it will help, just more teams over spending to compete with top clubs and get into Europe.
Lets see how the 10 team league goes first.

MariborKev

14/10/2008, 8:01 PM

Would it work? No.

Move on.

Graemerz

14/10/2008, 8:10 PM

Trust me sometimes the more teams the worse the competition becomes.. Look at the Irish League when it went to 16 teams, it was a league filled with dross teams who very rarely give off any sort of shock results, most of the time the only time these teams got points is when they played each other. :rolleyes:

It drags a good side down when they are playing dross opposition.

passerrby

14/10/2008, 8:17 PM

no because we refuse to play with so many clubs that cant organise there budgets for a season

Paddyfield

14/10/2008, 9:14 PM

no because we refuse to play with so many clubs that cant organise there budgets for a season

The truth hurts.

oldyouth

14/10/2008, 9:58 PM

What if Cork A, Bohs A, Pat's A and Derry A were promoted? It would bring a new meaning to the word 'derby' if Bohs were playing Bohs A.
Not only that, but they could get drawn in a League Cup game. What, also, would happen if one of those clubs got in to financial difficulty? Both would have to be penalised. Then you get the situation where the A team could get padded out with senior players for an important 1st division game

Mr Maroon

14/10/2008, 10:14 PM

What if Cork A, Bohs A, Pat's A and Derry A were promoted? It would bring a new meaning to the word 'derby' if Bohs were playing Bohs A.
They have A (well they call them B) teams in the Spanish league system. They work as if they are any other club except they cannot be in the same league as the first team. Real Madrid B won promotion once a few years back but they stayed in the second division becasue they couldn't be in the same league as Real.

I'm not saying it would work in Ireland, but it does in some countries.

don ramo

14/10/2008, 10:49 PM

lad we have A teams already, im saying no point in making every club run an A team, plus given the first division games you would actually be able to make money from your A team, rather than it costing you, there would be what 60 people at an A game, some clubs dont charge to enter, yet have to pay the ref E200, if you put A teams in with equal teams like the first division (maybe lower depending on the strenght of your squad) then you can charge more, as its more of a competative game, even if home fans dont come away ones will,

basically lads only the team that can afford an A team will have one (top 4 clubs) and they can actually make money from them if there playing against better opposition, you cant exactly epect to make money when you have salthill devon thorwn in with 12 A teams,

in the past did we not have a 10 team premier division, there will be a major gap between top and bottom with 18, but theres a gulf now with 12 and there will be with 10 also, there will always be a gulf,

thischarmingman

14/10/2008, 10:51 PM

would this work

No. It wouldn't.

Schumi

15/10/2008, 9:44 AM

dcfcsteve

15/10/2008, 9:45 AM

You're right here Don Ramo.

It would be a bad idea....

Ash

15/10/2008, 9:52 AM

In an ideal world, 18 teams would be the perfect number in the premier, play everyone twice and still have 17 home games but there's no point in having what are currenty mid-table first division teams playing Bohs, Pats and Derry and getting hammered. There aren't enough good players to sustain that size of a top flight unfortunately.

The advantage though would be the increased revenue games against bigger
teams would generate for the lesser sides. Increased revenue may lead to
a sounder financial platform for the smaller clubs to build on and bring in more quality players.

Dodge

15/10/2008, 9:59 AM

The advantage though would be the increased revenue games against bigger
teams would generate for the lesser sides. Increased revenue may lead to
a sounder financial platform for the smaller clubs to build on and bring in more quality players.

The increase in revenue would be for 4/5 home games only (no real difference in most crowds between mid tabel prem and top of first) so wouldn't have a massive impact. it might be more attractive for spopnsors and the likelihood of TV coverage would help too

However we're simply not big enough as a country to maintain that many top flight teams, without it becoming ridiculously lopsided. some sort of competitiveness needs to be maintained. Also licensing has to be kept up, if only the grounds aspect of it. There are no wehere near 18 grounds close to being abel to stage premier division football that can be watched on Tv

Mr A

15/10/2008, 10:11 AM

Didn't we have a 16 team premier when the league had its biggest crowds and international representation as a matter of course though?

Dodge

15/10/2008, 10:13 AM

Didn't we have a 16 team premier when the league had its biggest crowds and international representation as a matter of course though?

No. We had a 16 team league for 1 season in 1984/85 (after the addition of Cork City and Longford Town) and from 77/78 to 81/82

Ash

15/10/2008, 10:20 AM

The increase in revenue would be for 4/5 home games only (no real difference in most crowds between mid tabel prem and top of first) so wouldn't have a massive impact. it might be more attractive for spopnsors and the likelihood of TV coverage would help too

However we're simply not big enough as a country to maintain that many top flight teams, without it becoming ridiculously lopsided. some sort of competitiveness needs to be maintained. Also licensing has to be kept up, if only the grounds aspect of it. There are no wehere near 18 grounds close to being abel to stage premier division football that can be watched on Tv

Drat ... a flaw in my flawless plan :p

Mr A

15/10/2008, 10:24 AM

It was 16 before that as well though and had been 14 for quite a while before.

Would the top 4 in the first division really lessen the standard that much? I don't think there's too much difference between lower premier and upper first TBH, and Dundalk, Waterford, Shelbourne and even to some extent Fingal would have something to add the the premier.

dcfcsteve

15/10/2008, 10:27 AM

Increased revenue may lead to
a sounder financial platform for the smaller clubs to build on and bring in more quality players.

That's hardly a senisble business model for the smaller sides though Ash - particularly given the relatively tiny numbers of away fans involved in our league.

Sounds a bit like the Irish league - where smaller clubs just bide their time until Linfield and Glentoran visit so they can cash in briefly on the away fans.

The same thing used to happen, in a shameless fashion, with Derry City in their first two seasons in the First Division. Clubs like EMFA and Monaghan used to put-up entry and programme prices solely for City games, as they knew we'd bring a few thousand fans and pay for the rest of their season..... :(

Dodge

15/10/2008, 10:30 AM

It was 16 before that as well though and had been 14 for quite a while before.
I'd editted that before you posted. League soent 9 years with 14, and 4 with 16. The supposed golden time of the league (50s/60s) it was always 12.

Would the top 4 in the first division really lessen the standard that much?
Would they add that much? I really think fiddling about with the league structures is the last thing that needs to be sorted

pineapple stu

15/10/2008, 11:40 AM

9: Bohs A
10: Pats A
11: Derry A
12: Cork A

i would say the top 4 teams only should have to field an A team, based in the fact there the biggest and strongest clubs, and they should play in the first division to develope there younger players better, as you would consider the biggers clubs will draw the best young talent,
So you'd have the four top clubs' A teams rather than, say, the four top A teams?

But overall, it's a resounding no from me too.

passerrby

15/10/2008, 1:23 PM

That's hardly a senisble business model for the smaller sides though Ash - particularly given the relatively tiny numbers of away fans involved in our league.

Sounds a bit like the Irish league - where smaller clubs just bide their time until Linfield and Glentoran visit so they can cash in briefly on the away fans.

The same thing used to happen, in a shameless fashion, with Derry City in their first two seasons in the First Division. Clubs like EMFA and Monaghan used to put-up entry and programme prices solely for City games, as they knew we'd bring a few thousand fans and pay for the rest of their season..... :(

what a crock of derry bull who the fcuk do you think youse are manchester united you never brought a few thousand to monaghan ever at most a couple of hundred and as for paying for the rest of our season then it must have been the second last game.
p.s you forgot to mention during those times of thousand away supporters derry city was saved by the intervention of local poiticions on more than one occasion
oh and as for us putting up our prices that is a lie but we did have to make a allowance for your countries currency

fionnsci

15/10/2008, 1:27 PM

Real Madrid B won promotion once a few years back but they stayed in the second division becasue they couldn't be in the same league as Real.

What happens if Real were relegated from the top tier? Anyway, Ireland is not big enough for a 16 team league at any level.

Dodge

15/10/2008, 1:29 PM

What happens if Real were relegated from the top tier?
The world celebrates, and Real B are relegated too.

Boh_So_Good

15/10/2008, 1:46 PM

It might work if the A squads were not in it. That's pretty stupid. What is one made the premier division and you had Bohs playing Bohs A. Think about it.

shantykelly

15/10/2008, 7:14 PM

what a crock of derry bull who the fcuk do you think youse are manchester united you never brought a few thousand to monaghan ever at most a couple of hundred and as for paying for the rest of our season then it must have been the second last game.
p.s you forgot to mention during those times of thousand away supporters derry city was saved by the intervention of local poiticions on more than one occasion
oh and as for us putting up our prices that is a lie but we did have to make a allowance for your countries currency

ah yes, a brilliantly reasoned rebutal. the thousands of away supporters were during the mid to late 80s, as a return to senior football caught the imagination of the city. as the novelty wore off, so too did the crowds. then we started to experience open financial trouble from about the mid 90s on. and yes, our local club has been saved in the past by the efforts of both our politicians and other illustrious individuals from our city. whats wrong with that? im sure shels, cork and drogs were getting the level of support from their communities that we got from ours when our backs were against the wall.

don ramo

15/10/2008, 10:40 PM

It might work if the A squads were not in it. That's pretty stupid. What is one made the premier division and you had Bohs playing Bohs A. Think about it.

did you not read the thread at all, as said the A team cannot be promoted, as they cant be in the same league as the main team, and as i said only the top 4 clubs each season should have an A team, therefore in the situation where they are relegeted there A team dissapear, as another team would take there place in the top 4 and replace them,

Rovers fan

15/10/2008, 11:35 PM

The world celebrates, and Real B are relegated too.

What if Real B win the league in the same year though? Now that would be interesting:D.

galwayhoop

16/10/2008, 12:02 PM

MariborKev

16/10/2008, 12:19 PM

what a crock of derry bull who the fcuk do you think youse are manchester united you never brought a few thousand to monaghan ever at most a couple of hundred and as for paying for the rest of our season then it must have been the second last game.
p.s you forgot to mention during those times of thousand away supporters derry city was saved by the intervention of local poiticions on more than one occasion
oh and as for us putting up our prices that is a lie but we did have to make a allowance for your countries currency

What age are you?

Judging by that response, in your late teens or so. We did bring those numbers to the games in Monaghan, particularly in the late 80s. In fact as late as April 2002 we brought nearly 1000 to Monaghan for a game. So much in fact that your chairman boarded a number of supporters' buses to thank the Derry fans for securing the club's future for the next few months.

But hey, we all imagined it happening.......:rolleyes:

jinxy lilywhite

16/10/2008, 1:30 PM

Maybe a little bit of merit in the original proposal but as for the A teams i'd say that would be a no no.
Although I did think that a 16 team premier would be beneficial probably make for a more competitive league.
But then what do you do with the other 6 teams excluded. My theory is to offer population centres (County towns) with no loi football club the chance to enter. If you think of towns that could sustain a club (Mullingar, Tralee, Portlaoise, Castlebar, Tullamore, Navan or some team from Meath). You could have an initial 12 team first. The policy of the FAI I think should be to try to have at least one loi football club in every county.

passerrby

16/10/2008, 4:46 PM

What age are you?

Judging by that response, in your late teens or so. We did bring those numbers to the games in Monaghan, particularly in the late 80s. In fact as late as April 2002 we brought nearly 1000 to Monaghan for a game. So much in fact that your chairman boarded a number of supporters' buses to thank the Derry fans for securing the club's future for the next few months.

But hey, we all imagined it happening.......:rolleyes:

thanks for the teens compliment but have been attending since belguim park and they were great crowds but nearly one thousand is not as df says a few thousand also spoke to our chairman and he never boarded a derry bus so it must have been customs checking passports
p.s while you were always welcome you never secured the furture of this club

Candystripe

16/10/2008, 7:48 PM

thanks for the teens compliment but have been attending since belguim park and they were great crowds but nearly one thousand is not as df says a few thousand also spoke to our chairman and he never boarded a derry bus so it must have been customs checking passports
p.s while you were always welcome you never secured the furture of this club

I was on one of those buses when a director came on and made a speech thanking us for our behaviour and the atmosphere we brought. We stayed in the club bar until after 11pm (the game was at 3pm sunday) and we did have 1,000 at it.

As for you remembering Belgium park...........our 1st ever away game (LC) there was over 50 buses/mini buses from Derry that made there way there. Well over 3,000 was there and for our next visit we brought the same for the league game.

Donegalcelt

17/10/2008, 1:43 AM

They should have a 10-team league - Shamrock Rovers, Bohs, Pats, UCD, Sporting, Bray, Shels, Dundalk, Drogheda and maybe Kildare. Would save teams having to travel to Derry, Cork, Galway, Donegal or Limerick etc and having to get in a car/bus for more than three hours

don ramo

17/10/2008, 1:25 PM

Dodge

17/10/2008, 1:26 PM

The Sheliban

19/10/2008, 9:05 PM

I was always very suspicious of the notion that by reducing the number of teams you somehow improved the quality of the league.
To me, it was more a case of the bigger, richer, more powerful clubs not wanting to play against the smaller, lesser supported and therefore less profitable clubs. Hence more lucrative Dublin derbies and two fingers to the wasteland that is the First Division.
Can't see what's wrong with a 16 team Premier Division, 30 games a season and regional sub-divisions.

Lim till i die

20/10/2008, 12:22 AM

i think the proposal could have some merit. without the A teams though. perhaps the best intermediate sides be offered the 4 spots in div 1.
it would also have to include the senior leagues beneath the 1st division as feeders. a pyramid like below perhaps:

............Premier (18 teams)

..............First (12 teams)

MSL..........LSL........U&CSL

The bottom 2 teams in the premier go down. first in div 1 is automatic promoted. perhaps a play off for the next 2 to see who goes up. The three winners of the Senior leagues play-off against each other and the winner plays the bottom team in div 1 to see who plays there.

MORE TEAMS!!

THE LEAGUE NEEDS MORE TEAMS!!

Why stop at that, here's my proposal:

Premier Division (64 teams). Two from each county in Ireland. Why not like??

First Division (1067 teams.) Comprising everyone who fancies a lash. Will be decided by a series of GAA style blitzs

The league is on its knees and you still have people coming out spouting about extra clubs and pyramids.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

galwayhoop

20/10/2008, 9:46 AM

MORE TEAMS!!

THE LEAGUE NEEDS MORE TEAMS!!

Why stop at that, here's my proposal:

Premier Division (64 teams). Two from each county in Ireland. Why not like??

First Division (1067 teams.) Comprising everyone who fancies a lash. Will be decided by a series of GAA style blitzs

The league is on its knees and you still have people coming out spouting about extra clubs and pyramids.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i can only assume you are being sarcastic...

all the teams in what i set out are existing clubs, there are no new teams. furthermore most of the teams operate on an amateur basis. our league will only survive if it is properly structured.

the FAI are currently trying to pull in a de-facto 3rd tier in the form of the A Championship. It is supposed to be regionalised (according to the original information) but 1 region including donegal, galway & dublin and the other including cork, galway and dublin isn't really regionalised now is it. why not just use (existing) structures to form the third tier.

Dodge

20/10/2008, 10:01 AM

I was always very suspicious of the notion that by reducing the number of teams you somehow improved the quality of the league.
To me, it was more a case of the bigger, richer, more powerful clubs not wanting to play against the smaller, lesser supported and therefore less profitable clubs

The majority of clubs voted for it. not sure why, but there you go

Lim till i die

20/10/2008, 9:14 PM

i can only assume you are being sarcastic...

all the teams in what i set out are existing clubs, there are no new teams. furthermore most of the teams operate on an amateur basis. our league will only survive if it is properly structured.

Our league will only survive if some of these existing clubs die.

Or go amateur.

jebus

20/10/2008, 11:32 PM

Genuinely they should scrap the First Division and have a 16 team Premier next year. All clubs shown the door go to the LSL or MSL or Connaught leagues (if such a monstrosity exists) and we work from there

don ramo

21/10/2008, 2:31 AM

i think 10 teams is a joke, if dundalk get promoted next year and U.C.D stay up youll have 70% of the premier will be from the general dubland area, and what if shelbourne or sporting fingal join them (which they could they look pretty good)

i think teh fact that dubland is the capital with over 1million people makes to easy for them to get players (not buy but develope), really if given the choice would a player wanna move to donegal or dubland,

in a few year it could be a possibility that 90% of the league will be in the genereal dubland area, i know it more than likely wont happen but what if it did,

we are copying the scottish model, who the **** copies anything the scots do, bar the old firm they are worse than us, now there is less competition in our league, it wont make teams better like teh FAI say it will in fact make it worse,

even EUFA would prefer leagues to be 18 teams, the want the EPL to go to 18 teams all the big leagues (and some small) use this system so whats wrong with it,

fionnsci

21/10/2008, 7:47 AM

Such a large Premier Division is simply not sustainable in Ireland. I'd much rather have 10 teams overspending to compete than 16 or 18. Our country doesnt even have the attendances to properly support a 12 team league.

And what happens if the First Division is scrapped? It will give the bottom half absolutely nothing to play for which will end up being completely counterproductive. A step in completely the wrong direction in my opinion.

Dodge

21/10/2008, 8:09 AM

i think 10 teams is a joke, if dundalk get promoted next year and U.C.D stay up youll have 70% of the premier will be from the general dubland area, and what if shelbourne or sporting fingal join them (which they could they look pretty good)

thats means that the league isn't a joke. Everywhere outside of Dublin is.

Anything without relegation would be a disaster IMo

sligored

21/10/2008, 8:35 AM

the criteria were set at the start of the 2007 season so there is no point coming on here whinging because your club is not making the grade.

10 strong competitive teams next year - will make for better football and there is no point in diluting it with rubbish teams.

As for the person who thinks ucd might stay up they have no chance now.

for what its worth i hope galway stay up because they have the most to offer a premier league and dundalk are a sleeping giant and the only problem i have with them is the pitch.

jebus

21/10/2008, 9:14 AM

Such a large Premier Division is simply not sustainable in Ireland. I'd much rather have 10 teams overspending to compete than 16 or 18. Our country doesnt even have the attendances to properly support a 12 team league.

You'd rather have 10 teams that go bust every couple of years than a 16 team Premier? How odd