RTE Prime time last night

[gspain]

RTE did a programme on sectarianism in football last night mainly on the Old Firm. I didn't get to see it.

Does anyone have a tape I could borrow or get? My video has gone on the blink and failed to tape it for me.

[Macy]

Wouldn't bother tbh, only on for a short time...

Nothing new - Celtic and Rangers fans are bigots (whatever excuses they try to make), they support the respective clubs for their "politicals" they represent, the clubs aren't very active at trying to deal with sectarians plus some muppets in the sub saying that "Celtic are an Irish club that happen to play in Scotland" (to give Primetime the excuse to show it)....

Interesting to hear that in 2(?) years there have been no racist killings in Scotland, but in the same period there had been 7 sectarian killings, mainly on auld firm weekends.....

Best bit was a Scottish Journalist saying how disappointing it was to see the booing of Rangers players at an Ireland match and how it shouldn't be brought into it. Also the "Nil by mouth" rep saying that the booing is sectarian.

[Paddy Ramone]

I think that it is the Dublin supporters of Celtic who are into the sectarianism most of all. The Celtic supporters in Ireland who come from the traditional Celtic supporting areas like Co Donegal and Co Mayo aren't as bad. These were the parts of Ireland where the "tatie-howkers" migrated to Scotland for seasonal work and people support Celtic there more for the football than the political reasons.

It's also interesting there was no mention of Hibernian the original Irish Catholic immigrant football club in Scotland on Prime Time last night. Hibs would be a better choice for Irish people because they are more integated with the majority Protestant population.

[Macy]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
It's also interesting there was no mention of Hibernian the original Irish Catholic immigrant football club in Scotland on Prime Time last night. Hibs would be a better choice for Irish people becuse they are more integated with the majority Protestant population.
Maybe it's because Hibs have attempted to tackle sectarianism, whereas Celtic/Rangers attempt to cash in on sectarianism....

[gspain]

apparently it was billed as a documentary on sectarianism in Irish football.

Looks like I didn't miss much.

[Xlex]

well if you wish to gatch up you can stream it here...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1007/primetime.html


Is racism in sport ineradicable?

Ken O'Shea examines one of the most deep rooted intercommunal sports divides - Celtic & Rangers, in Glasgow?

[pete]

Caught a few mins at the end with some scottish journo saying sectarianism in ireland with respect Celtic has grown now that Celtic more accessable to those people witht Sky Sports.

[Éanna]

Thought it was pretty good myself. There was one moment which typified your stereotype Celtic-loving bigot though. They asked
this fella in some bar in Dublin
Interviewer: "Do you hate Rangers fans?"
"Celt": "Yeah"
I: "So do you hate protestants?"
C.: " I don't mind them as long as they keep to themselves!"
I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry :rolleyes: Also, they interviewed that gobsh!te from ok2boo.com who was an utter worm. He kept talking anti-rangers propaganda every time he was asked a question about Celtic:rolleyes:

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by Éanna
Also, they interviewed that gobsh!te from ok2boo.com who was an utter worm. He kept talking anti-rangers propaganda every time he was asked a question about Celtic:rolleyes:

Which proves the point I've made since the booing started a few years back. Anyone engaging in it is a complete b***ox!!! Personally, I couldn't give a s***e about the political or religious sides to it. If someone wants to follow Celtic fine by me, if someone wants to follow Rangers fine by me also.

[nlgbbbblth]

Originally posted by Éanna
Thought it was pretty good myself. There was one moment which typified your stereotype Celtic-loving bigot though. They asked
this fella in some bar in Dublin
Interviewer: "Do you hate Rangers fans?"
"Celt": "Yeah"
I: "So do you hate protestants?"
C.: " I don't mind them as long as they keep to themselves!"
I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry :rolleyes: Also, they interviewed that gobsh!te from ok2boo.com who was an utter worm. He kept talking anti-rangers propaganda every time he was asked a question about Celtic:rolleyes:

that guy was a muppet
neither set of supporters did themselves any favours

you want to follow an Irish club? - there's plenty to choose from in Ireland

[Éanna]

Its a free country, and people can follow who they like, but these guys were just embarassing themselves on camera and seemed totally oblivious to it.

[Junior]

I've seen these type of documentaries before (one called Football, Faith and Flutes, was screened a few years ago).

Lets face it, the supporters they pick are the eejits of this world,otherwise there would be no point in making the programme. 'sensationalism' I think its called.

I didn't see the programme so can't comment, but generally these programmes are poorly researched, tabloid equivalent tv, pick the biggest eejits you can find from both sides and present them as the norm.

No doubt there are sectarian bigots on both sides, but you would have to be a numpty to take this view as being the normal situation.

I'm a Celtic fan, originally began to support Celtic because of their strong Irish roots and traditions, I don't boo Rangers players at Lansdowne and I aphor Racism/Sectarianism.

You can't help but take it personally, when posters on this forum quote ******, tarring us all with the same brush.

Jnr

[gustavo]

just visited the ok2boo site.
thought this comment was quite funny in the message board section

"Last year Rangers played Leeds in a friendly at Ibrox and Gary Kelly was constantly booed and jeered by Rangers fans. This was simply because he is an Irish international, because he represents Ireland and Irishness. The treatment of him WAS racist, so to boo representatives of this racist club is an anti-racist act. Long may it continue."

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Macy

Interesting to hear that in 2(?) years there have been no racist killings in Scotland, but in the same period there had been 7 sectarian killings, mainly on auld firm weekends.....


There was a high profile racist murder earlier in the year on an estate in Glasgow that caused alot of tension in the city, think it was called the "red cow estate"? but Im open to correction on that one!

To the best of my knowledge all the secterian murders in Scotland in recent years have been Celtic fans!
Something which seems to have spread to the six counties where a number of people have been murdered for wearing Celtic tops!

Yet more interesting facts!

[pete]

ah the good old "if they do it to us then its ok for us to do it" arguement...

:rolleyes:

[Paddy Ramone]

There was a Dublin-born Protestant Rangers player Alec Stevenson who played for both Ireland teams back in the 1930's.

Would a Rangers player be accepted nowadays in the green shirt of Ireland?

Does anyone know if an Irish Catholic has ever played for Rangers?

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by pete
ah the good old "if they do it to us then its ok for us to do it" arguement...

:rolleyes:

You can roll your eyes all you want pal but if your gonna have facts I see no reason not to have the full facts?

I look forward to your response........

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
There was a high profile racist murder earlier in the year on an estate in Glasgow that caused alot of tension in the city, think it was called the "red cow estate"? but Im open to correction on that one!

To the best of my knowledge all the secterian murders in Scotland in recent years have been Celtic fans!
Something which seems to have spread to the six counties where a number of people have been murdered for wearing Celtic tops!

Yet more interesting facts!

I think that murder was in the Sighthill area of Glasgow.

I think the spread of violence has been, er, the other way round. Thousands of people have been murdered in NI simply for being nationalists or unionists. I don't think it's wise to draw too many conclusions from a much smaller number of incidents in Scotland, despicable though they obviously are.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I think that murder was in the Sighthill area of Glasgow.

I think the spread of violence has been, er, the other way round. Thousands of people have been murdered in NI simply for being nationalists or unionists. I don't think it's wise to draw too many conclusions from a much smaller number of incidents in Scotland, despicable though they obviously are.

Agreed!
However my point was that it is one way traffic (sectarian murders in Scotland) something which the program makers didnt clarify.

[gspain]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
There was a Dublin-born Protestant Rangers player Alec Stevenson who played for both Ireland teams back in the 1930's.

Would a Rangers player be accepted nowadays in the green shirt of Ireland?

Does anyone know if an Irish Catholic has ever played for Rangers?

Plenty of players played for both Irelands before 1950. It was quite common.

3 southerners have played for Rangers - Alex Craig from Galway,
James Lowry McAuley from Portarlington and Alex Stevenson as you said from Dublin. I don't know any of their religions.

I'd love to see an Irish player play for Rangers. It might shut up some of the bigots although if some of the muppets booed one of our own platyers I'd feel like throwing them off the stand.

[Paddy Ramone]

Alex Stevenson according to a history of the Irish soccer team I read, was a Protestant. He holds the record for for the longest gap between caps for the Ireland (Eire) while choosing to play for (Northern) Ireland instead. Both national teams called themselves 'Ireland' in those days. The book refers to the fact that he may have been reluctant to play for the 'south' because of his Protestantism.

I think he played for 'Eire' against Holland while he was with Rangers in 1932 although for some mysterious reason, his club side is listed as Dolphin. A Catholic from Waterford, Davy Walsh played for Linfield in the 1940's.

Alex Craig may have been a Protestant by the sound of his lowland Scottish surname. McAuley is an Irish Gaelic surname so maybe he was a Catholic. When did they play for Rangers?

About the booing of Rangers players, I think it is the "Johnny-come-latelys' from Dublin who are the worst. The traditional Celtic supporting fans from the North West of Ireland aren't as bigoted.

[pete]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
About the booing of Rangers players, I think it is the "Johnny-come-latelys' from Dublin who are the worst. The traditional Celtic supporting fans from the North West of Ireland aren't as bigoted.

Maybe you right but don't think you can be just a bit bigoted & think things ok. Bit like being a bit racist?

[Paddy Ramone]

What I meant to say that that not as many of the traditional Celtic fans are bigots. They support Celtic mostly because they have genuine connections with Scotland, coming from places like Donegal and Mayo.

I think some of the Dublin fans who have recently adopted Celtic are the worst for bigotry. They seem to be only into the religious and political side of supporting Celtic.

[TheRealRovers]

They support Celtic mostly because they have genuine connections with Scotland, coming from places like Donegal and Mayo.
Don't forget Sligo. Brother Wilfrid (Think that’s how you spell it) came from Ballymote Co. Sligo one of the main men who set up Celtic
Didn't see the program but I was told there was a Rangers fan with a UDA scarf. SCUMBAG

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by gspain

I'd love to see an Irish player play for Rangers. It might shut up some of the bigots although if some of the muppets booed one of our own platyers I'd feel like throwing them off the stand.

Do you think Rangers would sign an Irish player?

[gspain]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Alex Stevenson according to a history of the Irish soccer team I read, was a Protestant. He holds the record for for the longest gap between caps for the Ireland (Eire) while choosing to play for (Northern) Ireland instead. Both national teams called themselves 'Ireland' in those days. The book refers to the fact that he may have been reluctant to play for the 'south' because of his Protestantism.

I think he played for 'Eire' against Holland while he was with Rangers in 1932 although for some mysterious reason, his club side is listed as Dolphin. A Catholic from Waterford, Davy Walsh played for Linfield in the 1940's.

Alex Craig may have been a Protestant by the sound of his lowland Scottish surname. McAuley is an Irish Gaelic surname so maybe he was a Catholic. When did they play for Rangers?

About the booing of Rangers players, I think it is the "Johnny-come-latelys' from Dublin who are the worst. The traditional Celtic supporting fans from the North West of Ireland aren't as bigoted.

Agree that the booing and bigotry comes from the fans who have just discovered Celtic by and large. Donegal and the north west have always supported Celtic ahead of Man Utd, Liverpool et al.

Alex Stevenson was not capped for what was then the Irish Free state while at Ibrox. He was only there for one season before mooving to Everton. He was transferred from Dolphin and Rangers played a friendly v Dolphin in Dalyer in 1933 as part of the transfer.

I can check the records and did some work before and discovered that many southern players had gaps between caps while playing for NI. Jimmy Dunne springs to mind. However this may have been down to the release of players from English clubs and this was less of a problem for NI who only played in the Home Championship at the time.

I doubt if religion was an issue at the time. Plenty of protestants have played for us and football would still have been seen as a garrison and protestant game at the time (it still is to some bigots). A protestant even won an All Ireland gaelic medal in 1933.

Linfield had plenty of Catholic players prior to 1950. They didn't have any from 1950-1988 and almost certainly operated a sectarian policy. Davy Walsh as you say was a Catholic player.

Alex Craig played back in the 2nd decade of the 1900s he played over 200 times for Rangers. James Lowry McAuley played only once back around the same time I think from memory.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by gspain


Alex Stevenson was not capped for what was then the Irish Free state while at Ibrox. He was only there for one season before mooving to Everton. He was transferred from Dolphin and Rangers played a friendly v Dolphin in Dalyer in 1933 as part of the transfer.

I doubt if religion was an issue at the time. Plenty of protestants have played for us and football would still have been seen as a garrison and protestant game at the time (it still is to some bigots). A protestant even won an All Ireland gaelic medal in 1933.

Linfield had plenty of Catholic players prior to 1950. They didn't have any from 1950-1988 and almost certainly operated a sectarian policy. Davy Walsh as you say was a Catholic player.



According to a history of an Irish international football, I have Alex Stevenson was discovered by Rangers' coach Arthur Dixon playing junior football with the Dolphin club in Dublin before he signrd for the Ibrox Club in 1931. Played for Rangers from 1931 to 1934 before moving to Everton.

But a history of the FAI says that he was capped for Irish Free State in 1932 against Holland in Amsterdam but lists him as a Dolphin player.

Davy Walsh, a Catholic played from Waterford played for Linfield from 1943 to 1946 before he moved to WBA in July 1946 but was capped for Ireland against Portugal in Lisbon on June 16th 1946 but is listed as a WBA player! Why?

I think Stevenson might have been reluctant to play for the Irish Free State at this time because De Valera (a rugbyman, went to Blackrock) had just been elected to government at this time and was regularly seen in attendance at Dalymount Park. Oscar Traynor, a veteran of the 1916 rising was elected president of the FAI. Maybe Stevenson didn't like the Republican influence that was making it's presence felt in Southern soccer.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Do you think Rangers would sign an Irish player?

Protestant Irish international Alan Maybury was a Rangers fan as a young lad.

He had a trial with Rangers when he was 14 and met Walter Smith a couple of times and could have signed for them but didn't.

[gspain]

Paddy sounds like your book is a bit flakey - which one is it?

I'm going on memory but I'm pretty sure Stevenson only left Dolphin (a league of Ireland club until 1937) in 1933.

We had Davy Walsh in Limerick for a season or 2 before going up north. Last I heard he was a wealthy hotelier in Devon. He was one of many Catholics to play for Linfield prior to 1950

[Paddy Ramone]

There are two books. They are "Irish International Football" by Steven McGarrigle and "75 Years of the FAI" by Peter Byrne.

McGarrigle says Stevenson played for Rangers from 1931 to 1934. But Byrne's book says he was capped by the Irish Free State in 1932 while playing with Dolphin!

About Walsh, McGarrigle says that he played for Linfield from 1943 to July 1946 but Byrne contradicts him by saying that he was capped by the Irish Free State while playing with West Bromwich Albion on June 16th 1946.

What's going on? Is there a cover-up that players have represented the Republic of Ireland while playing for Rangers and Linfield?

[gspain]

I know and have the Byrne book and know the stats on that are really accurate - I know the guy that did it and helped with a few queries - no conspriacy theories or need for cover ups etc - why would there be? Walsh may be an error - he won the Cup with Linfield in 46 and did play for West Brom in 46/7.

I don't know McGarrigle's book but books on Irish football are riddled with errors - Paul Rowan's springs to mind.

From memory I'm certain the Stevenson transfer happened in 1933 - I've seen the Dolphin v Rangers programme from that year as part of the transfer. I'm also certain he only played one season with Rangers so the McGarrigle book is probably wrong.

for 33/4 season we only played the 2 WC qualifiers (I don't think we played any game sin 33 certainly no home games in 32 & 33).
There were issues getting release of any British based players for those qualifiers so we had a weaker side in Amsterdam than stuffed the Dutch 2 years earlier.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Protestant Irish international Alan Maybury was a Rangers fan as a young lad.

He had a trial with Rangers when he was 14 and met Walter Smith a couple of times and could have signed for them but didn't.

Is this post trying to prove that Rangers dont have a secterian signing policy or something, Im confused?

[Paddy Ramone]

Just that a Republic of Ireland international could have signed for Rangers.

No one is denying that Rangers had a sectarian policy. It was introduced around 1912, the time that Harland and Wolff set up operations in Govan in Glasgow and kept until the 1980's.

A South African Catholic Don Kirchenbrand signed for them in the 1950's without revealing his religion.

[Jim Smith]

Off topic a bit I know but:

I was living in Glasgow when they signed Maurice Johnstone (there first public signing of a Catholic in my life time). Love or loathe Souness and Murry - at least they stood up and overturned the policy in public. It was one of the strangest days I've ever seen. The Sun broke the story so, naturally, nobody believed it at first. As they day wore on more and more people became, quite literally shell-shocked. I don't know which set of fans were more upset by the signing.

It just went to show how sad and mixed up the OF fans really were/are...

[gspain]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Is this post trying to prove that Rangers dont have a secterian signing policy or something, Im confused?

I couldn't care less about Rangers. It is discussing whether we ever operated sectarian policies. I firmly believe we didn't as in the F.A.I. or the people who run/ran football here.

Otherwise just trying to get some historical facts correct.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by gspain


I doubt if religion was an issue at the time. Plenty of protestants have played for us and football would still have been seen as a garrison and protestant game at the time (it still is to some bigots). A protestant even won an All Ireland gaelic medal in 1933.



Football has been popular with Irish Nationalists since the 1890's at least. The Catholic Church condemned Parnell who was supported by the GAA at time. Many Catholics defected from GAA to soccer around this time.

The Irish Republican, Brendan Behan played the association code. Oscar Traynor, veteran of the 1916 rising was president of the FAI also around this time and De Valera was regularly seen supporting Ireland at Dalymount Park.

So to say that Irish Association Football was a Protestant and garrison game in the 1930's would be inaccurate. How do you explain the setting up of the the FAI in 1921 which was clearly a Nationalist move?

[gspain]

Paddy, I'm saying football was played by everyone at the time. It was played by protestants and catholics. It is also a classless game.

My whole point is that it wasn't sectarian.

Some bigots still refer to football as a garrison protestant game. That was my point.

[Paddy Ramone]

I agree with you. The GAA's ban on foreign games never made much sense to me anyway.

Most people in Dublin, even those with strong Republican views have always preferred soccer and only played Gaelic games because the Christian Brothers forced them to.

I think the support for the ban on foreign games in the GAA, was mostly in rural areas.