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Leinster v Munster first big game of the season.
Battle of the new kids - Fitzgerald & Earls?
Seems Leinster have gone for more forward orientated game whereas Munster are moving to more open game. Don't think these games are very expansive so I would make Leinster favourites especially as Contepomi not at 10.
Leinster:
G Dempsey, S Horgan, B O'Driscoll, F Contepomi, L Fitzgerald, J Sexton, C Whitaker, R McCormack, B Jackman, CJ Van Der Linde, L Cullen (C), M O'Kelly, R Elsom, S Jennings, J Heaslip
Replacements: S Wright, J Fogarty, T Hogan, C Jowitt, S O'Brien, C Keane, R Kearney
Munster:
K Earls; D Howlett, R Tipoki, L Mafi, I Dowling; R O'Gara, T O'Leary; M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes; P O'Connell (C), D O'Callaghan; D Ryan, D Wallace, J Melck.
Replacements: F Sheahan, F Pucciariello, J O'Sullivan, A Quinlan, P Stringer, P Warwick, B Murphy.
Leinster 0 Munster 18.
I didn't see the start wegere Contepomi bottled it again missing 3 penalty. From bits I saw Munster were dominant and spent almost the remainder of the game in the Leinster 22. Their defence was good but tired in the end.
Player rotation seems to have given Munster an extra dimension & squad seems all the stronger for it. Mafi, Tipoki, Howlett & Earls are a potent force.
joeSoap
29/09/2008, 10:06 AM
Pretty dour weekend for Irish rugby. 3 of the 4 sides participating in the Magners League failed to score a single point between them. That is worrying and shocking. To think that a side that boasts a backline that includes Contepomi, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Dempsey, Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald can't register a single score against any opposition is frighteningly worrying. It does not bode well for the Six Nations. I'm not even going to get started on Connacht and Ulster, who shipped 101 points between them without reply. :o:o
Munster, on the other hand, continue to go from strength to strength, with Tipoki, Mafi and Howlett adding a lot of All Black flair to the backline, and Keith Earls now fulfilling all the promise we saw at underage level. The lad is an amazing all round talent, even moreso than Luke Fitzgerald in my book, and that is saying a hell of a lot. O'Gara pulls the strings nicely, and the forwards are quite a unit. When you have the back up they have on the bench, it is easy to see why they will be very very hard to beat in defence of the Heineken Cup. Special mention must go to McGahan the coach, who has added new dimensions to their game, and has been accepted by one and all as an honorary Munster man already.
The only area of concern for them has to be their lineout, which is a shambles, but at least they have time to work on it.
I watched Leicester Tigers v Wssps on Friday night. All Wasps scores incidentally came from or were set up by men who had to leave Munster becasue they weren't able to break into the team; Jeremy Staunton, Eoin Reddan and Varley the hooker. The standard of the English club game seems to be deteriorating, and the Magners League is easily a better, stronger league than it now. Good sign that....
I think Earls will progress more at Munster than Kearney & Fitzgerald at Leinster due to the different players around him & winning mentality.
Ireland have a problem at centre as Darcy while injured is a spent force anyway. O'Driscoll has peaked but still good enough at this stage. Horgans days are probably also numbered. Earls promotion might come sooner than expected & could make the bench with Kearney & Fitzgerald starting.
Not judging him on one game but Cheika does not impress me. I think his days may be numbered also.
Dodge
29/09/2008, 10:39 AM
The standard of the English club game seems to be deteriorating, and the Magners League is easily a better, stronger league than it now. Good sign that....
Don't think you can say that just after talking about he rubbish put out by Ulster and Connaught
joeSoap
29/09/2008, 11:34 AM
Don't think you can say that just after talking about he rubbish put out by Ulster and Connaught Connacht, and to a lesser degree Ulster have been consistently shyte over the past number of years. If you take a look at the top four clubs in the Magners League, Munster, Leinster, Ospreys and Cardiff Blues, I believe all four to be far superior to anything the English Premiership has to offer this season. This I believe will be proven in the Heineken Cup. Every league has its dregs...the Magners has Connacht, and to a lesser extent, Ulster and the Dragons. But the dregs of the Premiership such as Newcastle, Bristol, Worcester and Northampton drag that league down more. The standard of play by Leicester, Wasps and Gloucester has been quite poor so far this season. Only Sale have shown respectable form this far.
Schumi
29/09/2008, 11:46 AM
The top of the Magner's League is, give or take, on a par with the top of the Guiness Premiership over the last couple of years (I haven't seen any GP games this year so I don't know if that's changed appreciably) but the bottom is much weaker. Teams like Connacht, Dragons, Glasgow and (recently) Ulster have performed much more poorly in European competition than lower end GP teams. The Challange Cup has been an English benefit for the last few years.
Not judging him on one game but Cheika does not impress me. I think his days may be numbered also.
Except you kinda are, given that last season was respectable - winning the Celtic League, and some good wins in the European Cup, albeit with the disappointment of not coming through the group.
Far too early in the season to be making judgements on players or teams, imo. Arguably Munsters real strength has been peaking at the right time, whereas Leinster being fast out of the blocks and fading by the time the business end of the european group stages. If Munster can genuinely maintain their early form then they'll be very hard to beat by anyone, but that's still an if at this stage.
OneRedArmy
29/09/2008, 1:03 PM
Complete over-simplification but the English club game over the last 5+ years has been based squarely on slowing the game down, exactly what the ELVs have set out to stop (interestingly Munster played the same game up until a few years ago but the arrival of the Kiwi's made them much more expansive and McGahan is taking this even further).
I've no doubt the top Irish and Welsh clubs are much stronger than the English. Connaught aren't funded to be any better than they are and Ulster and the Scots are a complete mess so we can discount them.
Not sure what this tells us though, other than we know which teams will be competitive in the Heineken Cup :confused:
Top half of the Magniers would compete in the English Premiership but the bottom half of the Magniers would be completely outclassed. The English league is quiet strong & rarely any really poor teams any more.
Lack of relegation means will always end up with the likes of Connacht.
Chieka has not impressed in recent season & IMO he has taken that team as far as they can go. The HC semi final against Munster in Lansdowne sums up the team for me.
Aberdonian Stu
29/09/2008, 1:46 PM
Have to disagree on Earls. He was good last night but otherwise he's looked hapless to the point of being a major risk to the team under the high ball in most games. Until he gets that sorted he will be a liability to any side, including Munster.
The top half of the Magners is a match for the GP's best, possibly even superior, but the bottom half is woeful and you can't discount 5 teams out of hand. Dragons, Ulster, Connacht, Glasgow & Edinburgh are just shocking. That said I still reckon Leinster will make a hames of its trip to Edinburgh in Europe.
Cheika has consistently developed Leinster over the course of his tenure. Remember when he arrived the team was in a major transitional phase. The Ella write-off season, where nearly 60 players started at different stages due to the exceptional injury woes, was followed by a less than calm year with Kidney.
Cheika has managed to develop the outfit he now has into a much better side than the one he inherited. He's brought in players in positions where Leinster traditionally struggles, in particular prop, to give the side more teeth. Furthermore the strength in depth has never been better.
Yes the side didn't do well last night and the decision to give Sexton so little gametime before this match was an error, but on whole he has made substantial improvements to the side and to remove him would be lunacy.
Bald Student
29/09/2008, 2:22 PM
I'll have to watch one of the reruns on Setanta with sober eyes before I make my mind up fully but I think the half backs were the main difference between the teams.
From a Leinster point of view we were all over the Munster lineout, the scrums were even enough and the defence held firm. That's a good platform to build from but the length of time it took the ball to pass from Whitacer, through Sexton and to the midfield left the outside backs with no space to work in. That left us with little attacking threat.
The other main problem was keeping possession on the ground. Munster has a very strong counter rucking game but even against the two Welsh teams we've played we seemed almost afraid to bring the ball into contact. We beat the Ospreys with about 1/3 of the possession but that won't happen against better teams.
OneRedArmy
29/09/2008, 3:08 PM
As a non-Munster or Leinster neutral, I completely disagree with you Aberdonian Stu.
I don't think Cheika has made any material progress at all. Leinster are further away from winning the Heineken if anything.
PS Earls is a 13 being played at 15, bit harsh to judge him as a full back at this stage.
Would agree Earls not great under the high ball but he is very inexperienced & is progressing very quickly. I am a little surprised Earls has not been swapped with Howlett for some games.
The new rules seems to take away the lineout & rollling maul as attacking platforms so it is clear Munster have to change. From what I have seen their passing in contact this season has been really impressive.
Ulster have gone backwards in a massive way. Best chance Connacht will ever have of finishing above them.
rebus2008
29/09/2008, 3:45 PM
Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score. 0 from 3 for the kicker now makes sense. Professional in name and wage but little else.
Bald Student
29/09/2008, 3:47 PM
Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score.I think the linear nature of time precludes that.
I had a look at the records & was unable to find the last time Leinster held scoreless let alone at home. I gave up going further back than start of pro era.
OneRedArmy
29/09/2008, 4:20 PM
Maybe if certain Leinster players didn't reside around the bar stools of Coppers until 6am late last week, they'd have managed even a score. 0 from 3 for the kicker now makes sense. Professional in name and wage but little else.I thought they moved the closing hours forward not back?
I may have to consider returning to Coppers in that case (shudder).
Aberdonian Stu
30/09/2008, 8:15 AM
I don't think Cheika has made any material progress at all. Leinster are further away from winning the Heineken if anything.
Losing just 3 of 18 Magners League games is substantial progress. Obviously it's not the Ken but the biggest issue Leinster had in previous years was consistency and this is an area he has focussed on.
It was all well and good playing rugby that was fun to watch but when it was that high risk a game and the depth on the bench is as low as it was then consistency was bound to suffer.
Even after the defeat on Sunday, Leinster are entering this season with their best chance of winning in Europe since the end of Williams' tenure.
Cheika's reached as many Heineken Cup semis and won as many Magners' league titles as Williams, with a lot less woeful seasons along the way, only under Cheika the side looks capable of suffering an injury to an O'Driscoll or Heaslip without losing its edge.
joeSoap
30/09/2008, 10:30 AM
Have to disagree on Earls. He was good last night but otherwise he's looked hapless to the point of being a major risk to the team under the high ball in most games. Until he gets that sorted he will be a liability to any side, including Munster.. Total crap. Hapless is the worst word I would use to describe Earls. He's not a very tall lad, so therefore is going to be under pressure under high balls, but has reasonably acquitted himself so far, and his attacking play is second to none, Fitzgerald included. Also, bear in mind that he's not a natural full back. Calling him a liability is pure stupidity.
Cheika has consistently developed Leinster over the course of his tenure.. With the resources, players and back up he has, he should be shot if he doesn't develop them. Leinsters main character flaw over the years has been their propensity to bottle it in big games, and play certain players with a yellow streak down their backs. He is still doing that. True progress can only be judged in the Heineken Cup, and he has made very little progress there.
Cheika has managed to develop the outfit he now has into a much better side than the one he inherited. He's brought in players in positions where Leinster traditionally struggles, in particular prop, to give the side more teeth. Furthermore the strength in depth has never been better.. Strength in depth? Two weeks before the Heineken Cup starts Leinster are in total disarray at Out Half, the most pivotal position on the park and have very little option at reserve hooker and scrum half. Not great preparation for the biggest tournament of the year.
Yes the side didn't do well last night and the decision to give Sexton so little gametime before this match was an error, but on whole he has made substantial improvements to the side and to remove him would be lunacy. Lunacy might be a bit strong. I believe he either makes the semi final of the HC or he should be shown the door. How long does he need, how much money does he need to spend? He's a bit of a Rafa Benitez type of person to me.
Europe obviously make or break this year, but how come the two Munster Leinster games last year didn't matter as it was "only the magners" but now their suddenly so big they provide another example of Leinster bottling the big games?
joeSoap
30/09/2008, 11:23 AM
Europe obviously make or break this year, but how come the two Munster Leinster games last year didn't matter as it was "only the magners" but now their suddenly so big they provide another example of Leinster bottling the big games?
I for one never would say a Leinster v Munster Magners League game 'didn't matter' and anyone who says so is simply ignorant. These games always matter, especially to the supporters. It stuck in my gut to lose twice to Leinster last season, and thats why Sunday night was particularly sweet.
My reference to Leinster being bottlers still stands. League games are one thing but there is way more pressure in the Heineken Cup and thats where they have always bottled things in the past. I can see this season being no different sadly, but I hope I'm wrong. They have proven that they can do it on the big Heineken Cup occasion (QF V Toulouse in 06) but I believe their mentality is all wrong for these games, be it complacency or fear, I don't know which, but until they get the mental strength required they'll always be nearly men imo.
Bald Student
30/09/2008, 12:06 PM
I don't think I agree with you at all joeSoap. That game against Toulouse was exactly the mentality that needed to be removed from Leinster Rugby (and not just from the players). We beat Toulouse by 6 points that day and outscored them by (I think) 5 tries to 4. It reminds be a bit of how Newcastle used to play under Kevin Keegan in the 1990s, instead of loosing games 2-1 they'd loose 4-3. Playing the ball fast and loose like that will come good on some days and go very badly on others.
Cheika has spent the last 3 years building a team to genuinely compete with the top clubs in europe, rather than trying to win games with 30% or less of the possession. Whether the team he's put together is good enough is a separate question but he's working to the correct plan.
Also, Leinster isn't in total disarray at outhalf. Leinster has 3 senior outhalves, two of them are top international players and one is a young irish prospect. It's perfectly correct to play the irish player in the big league games.
Europe obviously make or break this year, but how come the two Munster Leinster games last year didn't matter as it was "only the magners" but now their suddenly so big they provide another example of Leinster bottling the big games?
I feel it is the manner in which Leinster lost. I didn't see the start when some penalties missed but from the majority of the remainder of the match Munster bullied them in their own half of the pitch. Munster might have scored late but should have been out of sight by then only for Leinster defence. Leinster also failed to score at home.
Bald Student
30/09/2008, 12:46 PM
I feel it is the manner in which Leinster lost. I didn't see the start when some penalties missed but from the majority of the remainder of the match Munster bullied them in their own half of the pitch. Munster might have scored late but should have been out of sight by then only for Leinster defence. Leinster also failed to score at home.
Jack Charlton used to say that defence is half the game.
You're right though. Leinster give up a lot of territory in open play. They don't protect the ball well when they take it into contact so you'll often see the receiving player give a few yards to the defence so as to be sure of staying with the support. The defence is similar, they deliberately hold back a yard or two from the gain line to be sure of having two or more tacklers when the time comes. It means that the defence is rarely broken but in exchange they give up a few yards each phase while they wait for the attacking team to make a mistake.
joeSoap
30/09/2008, 12:59 PM
I don't think I agree with you at all joeSoap. That game against Toulouse was exactly the mentality that needed to be removed from Leinster Rugby (and not just from the players). We beat Toulouse by 6 points that day and outscored them by (I think) 5 tries to 4. It reminds be a bit of how Newcastle used to play under Kevin Keegan in the 1990s, instead of loosing games 2-1 they'd loose 4-3. Playing the ball fast and loose like that will come good on some days and go very badly on others.. They beat Toulouse in France that day, didn't they??:confused: If they played a slower tighter game they would have got hammered like they were in the semi final that year so I fail to see your point. You play to your strengths, and Leinsters main strengths lie with fast ball and attack.
Cheika has spent the last 3 years building a team to genuinely compete with the top clubs in europe, rather than trying to win games with 30% or less of the possession. Whether the team he's put together is good enough is a separate question but he's working to the correct plan... Not if he hasn't got the players or the game plan to win games that way he's not. And Leinster have not been, and imo are still not in a position to compete with the top teams in Europe, namely Munster, Toulouse, Clermont Auvegrne and Stade Francais.
Also, Leinster isn't in total disarray at outhalf. Leinster has 3 senior outhalves, two of them are top international players and one is a young irish prospect. It's perfectly correct to play the irish player in the big league games. Contepomi: International inside centre converted to out-half. Exceptional centre, questionable out-half. Nacewa: Utility back who has played the majority of his rugby as a centre or full back. Also out for at least ten weeks with a broken arm. Sexton: Now highly tried, yet only proven to be average. Has never had a great game, and won't make it as an international imo. And please don't use the 'he's only a young fella' argument-Rob Kearney, Keith Earls and Luke Fitzgerald are all younger than him and making way more progress and O'Gara was younger than him (22) when he made his Irish debut.
I'd call that disarray at Out-Half.
Bald Student
30/09/2008, 1:22 PM
They beat Toulouse in France that day, didn't they??:confused: If they played a slower tighter game they would have got hammered like they were in the semi final that year so I fail to see your point. You play to your strengths, and Leinsters main strengths lie with fast ball and attack.The point is that the team was ridiculously inconsistent back then. Largely because of the game-plan. Keeping the ball loose and the play broken gives your strike runners a good chance of finding a gap but it also hands easy possession over to the opposition. Against Toulouse they were as quick to hand it back to us and we beat them at a game of who can find the most holes in the opposition defence. The exact same game plan lost the following fortnight because Munster didn't give Leinster any cheap ball. The team was playing to its strengths but those strengths were, by design, unreliable.
I don't agree with saying a team was brilliant because it beat Toulouse and then terrible because it lost to Munster. It was the same team involved in both matches. By the same logic, Leinster didn't get any worse as a team last weekend. They had the deficiencies in their game exposed and it's the job of the management to respond to that. The flaws in the Leinster team today are much smaller and should be easier to fix than compared to Cheika's first season.
I'm not going to go too deeply into a row over who should be Leinster's outhalf. If you don't rate the players, that your opinion but I disagree.
joeSoap
30/09/2008, 1:51 PM
My main problem with Leinster is that they have always lacked the necessary bit of grit required when the going gets tough. They have more than earned their nickname of 'The Ladyboys' over the years through performances like those against Edinburgh in the Heineken Cup in recent seasons and Contepomi's apparent inability to control anything everytime he comes up against a red shirt in a major game
This season they have players like Van de Linde, Elsom, Heaslip, O'Kelly, Jennings, Contepomi, O'Driscoll, Kearney, Horgan, Dempsey and Fitzgerald that should have them challenging for the Heineken Cup. I'll put my house on it that they won't be, and it'll be for the same reasons as usual.
Bald Student
30/09/2008, 2:09 PM
My main problem with Leinster is that they have always lacked the necessary bit of grit required when the going gets tough.I think we'll just have to disagree. I don't think Leinster was lacking in any grit up front last weekend. The Leinster pack was a match for Munster's, Leinster had the better of the set piece but Munster was stronger in the loose. Both tries came through the backs, the backs had no ideas to break the Munster defence other than to test Earls under high kicks and the penalties were missed by a back.
Leinster were beaten away to Edinburgh and Toulouse last year because the defence (Kearney in particular) gave away stupid tries. We lost to Leicester because the attack couldn't manufacture any type of space, even when they were down to 13 men. Leinster may well go out of Europe early again this year but it'll be for very different reasons than 3 or 4 years ago.
joeSoap
30/09/2008, 3:46 PM
When I was talking about a bit of grit, I didn't mean necessarily from the forwards. Leinster have quite a decent pack actually (LeoCullen excepted) and if anything its the backs that have been lacking the bottle. Contepomi, for all his flair, skill and genius has the most questionable temperament I have ever seen from a back. You never know what you're going to get, and its been pretty fair to say that in the big HC games, he's gone into hiding.
Maybe its because of all the hype regarding O'Driscoll, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Dempsey etc, but if I was a Leinster fan I'd be looking for answers as to why these big players don't do it when it counts.
Aberdonian Stu
30/09/2008, 4:34 PM
Well on the Horgan front the simple answer is that physically he is clearly getting on. While he isn't that old numbers wise it's clear that he's lost a step of pace and that can be fatal for wingers, though I think he has a couple of good years left in him.
The rest of the players you mentioned have performed well and as for Cullen, who for some reason you seemed to imply was a weak link in the pack (my apologies if I misread you comment) is a rock in the second row.
I stand over my use of the word hapless to describe Earls ability under the high ball. Using his physical characteristics and his recent adoption of the position as an excuse doesn't fly. On the first part, if he's too short to play there then he shouldn't be there. On the second, he needs to show more versatility, he's had only one good performance in that position and there's only so many places on the park to put the man. If full back is where the opportunity lies then he needs to become more of a full back.
Cheika's record in the Heineken Cup is one of progress. He brought a team that had been rubbish in the competition in the two preceding years to the knockout stages in 2 out of 3 seasons and went out in the group of death the other year. In said other year he happend to win the Magners. That's a good return.
On the bottling it front, again Leinster's more high-risk strategy made that far more likely and he's phased a lot of that out to develop a more consistent gameplan.
I'd concur with Bald Student on the depth of Leinster at out-half, and again the current situation is a vast improvement on the days where Option B was Christian Warner.
As for the HC chances. Will Leinster win? I haven't a monkeys but they are far better placed to challenge now than they have been for a long time. Like Bald Student said, if they fall short it will be for far different reasons to the semi final defeat a few years back.
Bald Student
30/09/2008, 4:51 PM
I stand over my use of the word hapless to describe Earls ability under the high ball. Using his physical characteristics and his recent adoption of the position as an excuse doesn't fly. On the first part, if he's too short to play there then he shouldn't be there. On the second, he needs to show more versatility, he's had only one good performance in that position and there's only so many places on the park to put the man. If full back is where the opportunity lies then he needs to become more of a full back.
I think you're being a little unfair in Earls. He's not naturally a fullback but he's being played there to give him some game time before moving him into the centre where he'll have a lot less time to think. You saw the same with Trimble a few years back and D'Arcy before that. The Luke Fitzgerald has been playing back three for 2 years now but will almost certainly move into the centre soon.
I still don't agree with you joeSoap (and I'm not deliberately being contrary by replying to all your posts). There wasn't any lack of grit from the backs either last Sunday. I don't remember anyone avoiding contact or dropping off a tackle. Sexton regularly had to take a hit from men twice his size when he got slow ball from inside and I don't think he threw a single hospital pass to the centre to avoid it. If anything I think a part of the problem is that BOD has been much to quick to go into contact over his career and he's paying for it now with hamstrings as tight as Tony Mac.
Leo's a bit lighter than most other locks but if he put on any more weight it would damage the lineout. That's a deliberate choice and I think it's been paying dividends, especially now with the new rules making it much easier to challenge opposition ball.
Kicking is a separate skill again and you're right that Contipomi had a 'mare but that happens to every kicker from time to time and I wouldn't write him off after one bad game in over a year.
joeSoap
06/10/2008, 10:37 AM
Well...another interesting Magners League weekend. Munster again, ground out a victory, this time in appalling conditions in a very unsatisfactory performance. Highlight again being Keith Earls performance...quite simply outstanding, and he just keeps on improving. O'Gara was very influential again, and it was good to see Quinny back in the fold.
Ulster too were poor, but ground out a victory.
But what about 14 man Connacht?:D Quite gritty, ballsy and at times skillful performance. Again they showed up the bottler Ladyboys, and surely Cheika is now treading thin ice. I genuinely fear for them in the Heineken. And before all the ladboyettes here start moaning in between their caviar and Dom Perignon that it was only a reserve side, well, remember that they were playing Connacht...lowly Connacht, they had 7 top internationals in the starting xv and couldn't score a try. Thats 160 minutes of rugby without crossing the line.
And the performance simply re-inforces my arguments about them being in trouble at out half. They're in huge trouble there.
Aberdonian Stu
06/10/2008, 11:15 AM
I'm not even going to try to fathom what mutated form of English the term ladyboyette comes from.
Horrible performance and while I'd love to blame it on the reserves there were plenty of first team players out there as well. Leinster's reserves should be well capable beating Connacht, never mind a side with a few first teamers.
Basing Cheika's performance however on, from what I can tell in your posts, 4 games over 3 years is a limited way of judging a performance. The players, fans, and executive branch all think he's doing a good job and you can read my older posts to show why.
I'll address the bottlers half of the other term you used, again this points clearly to the way in which Leinster played pre-Cheika. It was too open and too high risk.
Leinster didn't choke against Munster or Connacht in the last two game, they were outplayed in both cases. Does this annoy me? Of course, a defeat is a defeat. Consistently however Leinster have come out on top in these kinds of encounters more often than not in the past season and a half however. They have been able to outplay opponents, controlling the game more.
When you play a high risk game the level of control you hold over the result is lessened (kind of goes with the whole 'high risk' term), the tighter style Leinster have adopted has stood to them on the whole over the past season and a bit.
Leinster improved this weekend as at least they scored some points although no tries. Only saw the last few minutes but caught the replay of try which was great. I don't see Connacht becoming a mid table side anytime soon but at least they have a fighting chance at the bottom.
Will be interesting to see if Kidney picks form players in his November squad. Some of the Leinster experienced players will surely struggle to make the side.
Aberdonian Stu
06/10/2008, 11:27 AM
The Connacht try was great. They've got a big fight on their hands to no finish bottom however. Dragons also have 2 wins while Ulster have usually pulled it out the head-to-heads with Connacht. The big issue for Connacht is depth, come the back end of the season they tend to suffer more from injuries than the other teams down there as they don't have players of a similar standard to come in.
OneRedArmy
06/10/2008, 12:33 PM
Cheika needs a win against Edinburgh to stay in his job.
He might struggle on until they find someone to fill the role, but I'd say the search for a replacement is about to start.
Leinster have invested far too much not to be competitive. A bit like Munster in years past, mediocrity in the Magners will be tolerated as long as there's a good showing in the Heino (ie qualification from the group stages). If there's neither, its goodnight.
joeSoap
06/10/2008, 12:48 PM
I am very keen to see where all of this 'progress' that the Leinster fans talk about under Cheika actually is.:confused: By changing their game plan to a less expansive one, they may control games better, but have seriously diminished their attacking capacity and as a result are not scoring points. In their last three games they have been outplayed in all of them, although to a lesser extent by the Ospreys. It's one thing being in control, its another scoring points and players like Leinster have in their backline need to be free flowing and expansive, rather than controlled.
A major aspect of controlling a rugby game is to have a dominant, take no crap out half in the mould of O'Gara. ROG runs the show start to finish, accepts the plaudits when it goes well, and slates himself when it doesn't. But, and its a big but, he has the balls to stand up and call the shots. I don't mean to harp on about Leinsters difficulties at ten, but Contepomi now is obviously being considered as a centre by Cheika, and Sexton is simply not aggressive or have enough balls and personality for the role. And he's not too young lads, and he's not still 'learning his trade'. If Leinster had O'Gara, or a Steven Jones or James Hook I reckon they'd come mighty close. Now I reckon they won't come out of their group.
Aberdonian Stu
06/10/2008, 1:12 PM
Nacewa is the starting out half while fit, he's currently recovering from a little matter of a broken arm.
This 'progress' as you put it was pointed out in the earlier post I made. He's made two knockout phases of the Heineken Cup and won one Magner's League in 3 years, that's a substantial step forward and far more consistent performance than his predecessors.
joeSoap
06/10/2008, 2:15 PM
Nacewa is the starting out half while fit, he's currently recovering from a little matter of a broken arm.
This 'progress' as you put it was pointed out in the earlier post I made. He's made two knockout phases of the Heineken Cup and won one Magner's League in 3 years, that's a substantial step forward and far more consistent performance than his predecessors. Nacewa is by no means guaranteed to be the starting Out Half when fit. Cheika has always alluded to that, and even if he is I don't believe he is the answer to the problems in that area. Either way, he's out til at least December, so it's immaterial.
While winning the Magners League last season was an achievement, the gap between Magners and Heineken is huge when you take into perspective what you need to do to win it. Leinster are still a million miles away from that level imo.
In three seasons in charge, Leinster have won three away games in the Heineken Cup, none at all last season, and the mighty Glasgow and Agen were two of those victories. It would be criminal if a side with Leinsters individual talents and money invested don't make the knock-out stages every season. This season, they'll struggle to get any kind of away victory as they go to Wasps, Edinburgh and Castres. These are teams they will beat at home, but their lack of leadership on the pitch, which was very evident last night, will cost them dearly away, and ruin their chances of qualifying.
I hope I'm wrong, but don't think so. Cheika is coming to the end of his cycle as a coach at Leinster. It's hard to re-invent yourself from within. 3-4 seasons in charge at any one team is pushing it. We saw how the national side became predictable and tired looking after 4 of Eddie's six seasons. Even Munster broke their ties with Kidney for a period, and I think thats why Connacht aren't progressing as they might also, although money is a big problem there.
Jofspring
10/10/2008, 12:00 PM
HEINEKEN CUP kicking off tonight in "Thomond Park Stadium" as it now likes to be called, can't wait, Off to a good start for Munster with a Bonus point win tonight i hope, tries from earls, tipoki and two from the forwards ;):D
Difficult game for Leinster as I believe Edinburgh are a bogey side for them.
Munster should get easy 4 points if not 5.
Don't give Ulster any hope against Stade Francais who have won 7 out of 7 in France. Will they wear their new jersey?
http://www.rugbyshop.com/produits/medium/5620.jpg
joeSoap
13/10/2008, 10:32 AM
Leinster surprised me. I still stand over my statement that they are weak at 10, and will never give you a totally dedicated 80 minutes, but they looked like the Leinster of old for 20 minutes on Saturday, and in those 20 minutes they clinically put Edinburgh to bed. O'Driscoll was awesome, and having Fitzgerald beside him at centre has helped his game no end. Thats the future centre partnership for Leinster, Ireland and maybe even the Lions next summer I reckon. Rocky Elsom is a big big player and he proved his worth on Saturday. What I was most impressed with was the way they killed the game while Dr. Phil was in the bin. O'Driscoll was the one responsible and great credit is due to him for this.
Munster were a disaster. They can blame the conditions, blame the French tactics, they can blame what they want...they were putrid. O'Gara seemed to have his mind on his book signings in Easons the following day, and all Munster seemed pre-occupied with was running in 4 tries for the bonus. Thay're in big trouble next weekend in Sale if they repeat this type of performance, big names or no big names.
Connacht produced an amazing result in France, totally overwhelming Dax. Hats off to Bradley and all involved there, and hopefully it will spur them on to finish ahead of Ulster in the Magners so they can play Heineken next year. Ulster are shocking...nothing short of a disgrace. Enough said.
What I was most impressed with was the way they killed the game while Dr. Phil was in the bin. O'Driscoll was the one responsible and great credit is due to him for this.
And you couldn't possibly give credit to the current captain...
Not having a pop at Leinster but I think the scoreline flattered them due to breakaway tries. That said Edinburgh are a serious bogey team for them & it was 5 good points for them.
Munster played terrible but still won. Will be a very difficult group after Sale getting bonus point in France. Likely only 1 team out from that group now.
The new seeding system does not seem to have worked as has lead to Glasgow & Newport (2 of the worse Celtic teams) alongside Toulouse & Bath which almost assures two teams qualifying from that group.
Dodge
13/10/2008, 12:22 PM
Not having a pop at Leinster but I think the scoreline flattered them due to breakaway tries. That said Edinburgh are a serious bogey team for them & it was 5 good points for them.
Well the game was won so they didn't have to play any better. Nothing wrong with that
A bonus point win is a bonus point win, but still far to early to really judge. The Leinster result is the type they should be getting.
Sale's form nearly as much a concern for Munster as their own at this stage.
joeSoap
14/10/2008, 9:59 AM
And you couldn't possibly give credit to the current captain... Not sure what you mean by that.:confused: I credit O'Driscoll for it because he was the one calling the shots from what I saw on television, he was the one who had to tell the current captain to go down and feign injury to run down the clock, and his defence was awesome. His experience finally came to the fore is all I'm saying.
Not sure what you mean by that.:confused: I credit O'Driscoll for it because he was the one calling the shots from what I saw on television, he was the one who had to tell the current captain to go down and feign injury to run down the clock, and his defence was awesome. His experience finally came to the fore is all I'm saying.
I thought it was the hatred of all things Leo Cullen. Apologies...
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