Celtic Cup announced

[NeilMcD]

The main reason against this is that we learn nothing by having our middle ranked Premiership players and championship players playing other players from the premiership and the championship and the SPL. Football wise we would be much better playing eastern european team who are lowered ranked like Albania etc these are the away friendlies that make the most footballing sense as they often make or break a qualifying campaign.


However the financial realities mean that it is more profitable for the Football Associations to play in this sort of tournament and I am sure Delaney is delighted to have the new stadium and for us to host out first ever tournament. That is not a dig against him but just the reality of the situation.


On a personal level I would also rather travel to more exotic places that Dublin 1, Belfast, Glasgow and Cardiff. Nothing against any of these cities but their women and prices do not compare to the likes of Montenegro and Bologna and Israel etc.

[Billsthoughts]

Yes as a 3rd seed in the World Cup draw we are really being brought down to
banal levels by playing against another 3rd seed, a second seed and a fourth seed team:rolleyes:
light on facts and heavy on cynicism.:(
We could well be up to second seed next draw and the other teams could just as easily be up or down as well. as a barometer of how good or bad a team is its meaningless.
Id say the reason it will be in Lansdowne first is because the block booking scheme guarantees sell out crowds.
These teams play the same type of technically inferior football as us. what are we going to gain from playing them at a time when we are trying to move away from it?
I'd dispute wether the players will take it seriously either. Mickey Mouse cup indeed.

[Drumcondra 69er]

The main reason against this is that we learn nothing by having our middle ranked Premiership players and championship players playing other players from the premiership and the championship and the SPL. Football wise we would be much better playing eastern european team who are lowered ranked like Albania etc these are the away friendlies that make the most footballing sense as they often make or break a qualifying campaign.


However the financial realities mean that it is more profitable for the Football Associations to play in this sort of tournament and I am sure Delaney is delighted to have the new stadium and for us to host out first ever tournament. That is not a dig against him but just the reality of the situation.


On a personal level I would also rather travel to more exotic places that Dublin 1, Belfast, Glasgow and Cardiff. Nothing against any of these cities but their women and prices do not compare to the likes of Montenegro and Bologna and Israel etc.

Fair enough but the fact is that most friendlies we play at present don't make footballing sense and are against random teams picked for little rhyme or reason.

And it may not suit yourself to travel to Belfast, Glasgow etc which is also fair enough but there's plenty of fans who can't make the exotic destinations due to family pressures, finances etc who will probably be able to make some of these games. A lot of the lads I traveled all over Europe with don't go anymore for those reasons but I'd imagine a day trip across the water will suit them.

[geysir]

light on facts and heavy on cynicism.:(
We could well be up to second seed next draw and the other teams could just as easily be up or down as well. as a barometer of how good or bad a team is its meaningless.
Id say the reason it will be in Lansdowne first is because the block booking scheme guarantees sell out crowds.
No Bill, I was not being cynical, I was being mildly sarcastic as denoted by the use of the sarcasm smiley.
I already expressed my opinion on the competition.


These teams play the same type of technically inferior football as us. what are we going to gain from playing them at a time when we are trying to move away from it?
As I wrote before, we played loads of friendlies before Trap against good opposition and learned nothing of value that translated into competitive success.

We play 3 friendlies under Trap and achieve much, we get rid of the long ball game, players going through cold turkey:) and have a solid system set up for the campaign.
I don't know about 2011, it's too far away.
So far, the evidence points to that the most important factor is the man in charge of the team and what he needs to do to get his message across to the players.

[NeilMcD]

Fair enough but the fact is that most friendlies we play at present don't make footballing sense and are against random teams picked for little rhyme or reason.

And it may not suit yourself to travel to Belfast, Glasgow etc which is also fair enough but there's plenty of fans who can't make the exotic destinations due to family pressures, finances etc who will probably be able to make some of these games. A lot of the lads I traveled all over Europe with don't go anymore for those reasons but I'd imagine a day trip across the water will suit them.

Eh hence the reason I said on a personal level. Fact of the matter is there is no footballing reason for this tournament, only a financial one. It will cost less and get good crowds. Its a money decision which is fair enough if it allows us to put money into grassroots football. However our players will learn very little from playing Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland at home. Then again international friendlies are not worth much anyway.

[Billsthoughts]

We play 3 friendlies under Trap and achieve much, we get rid of the long ball game, players going through cold turkey:) and have a solid system set up for the campaign.
I don't know about 2011, it's too far away.
So far, the evidence points to that the most important factor is the man in charge of the team and what he needs to do to get his message across to the players.

Long ball game?
that was introduced in the friendly with Serbia under Trapp!!!

[lopez]

Anybody thought about 'The Delaney Cup' seeing that none of the teams competing look likely to be playing in the finals of the 'Delauney' Cup in the near future if this is their idea of quality preparation opposition.

I had to laugh at 'bragging rights' quote. The only people looking for those will be our wee minds from up north. I personally would have thought the 0-0 draw in Montenegro would be more worth a 'brag' than beating any of these three sh*te teams. I dare say the Welsh and Scots think the same. :rolleyes:

[Drumcondra 69er]

Eh hence the reason I said on a personal level. Fact of the matter is there is no footballing reason for this tournament, only a financial one. It will cost less and get good crowds. Its a money decision which is fair enough if it allows us to put money into grassroots football. However our players will learn very little from playing Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland at home. Then again international friendlies are not worth much anyway.

Sorry mate wasn't having a go hence why I said your point of view was fair enough. Just stating that there's plenty of people that this will suit better then the usual ****e friendlies we endure.

Think your final line is the main point.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The whole thing sounds like the perfect cure for Insomnia....

[Noelys Guitar]

Complete waste of time. Players will learn nothing. This will be known as either the "Hammy Cup" or "Where's Giggsy Cup" with the amount of withdrawals.

[SkStu]

ah for f*cks sake, all the moaning on this thread - its a good plan, it will be good for players to gain experience and, if marketed properly, can reignite national pride in players to play for their country...

to all the naysayers, what harm can it do?

[ArdeeBhoy]

ah for f*cks sake, all the moaning on this thread - its a good plan, it will be good for players to gain experience and, if marketed properly, can reignite national pride in players to play for their country...

to all the naysayers, what harm can it do?

Like, er, international friendlies. Preferably v. better opposition than's being proposed here. I'd wager the Scots & Welsh would feel much the same.....

[amaccann]

Dunno how people can run this idea down; friendlies are becoming less relevant & with the exception of the odd game here and there, have been against mediocre opposition in the past. This Celtic cup will be a competitive set of games worth so much more than a miserable nothing game against Denmark or somesuch. You can guarantee a "local" derby between the two Ireland will garner much more interest & enthusiasm, on and off the field, than said friendlies.

[Colbert Report]

Dunno how people can run this idea down; friendlies are becoming less relevant & with the exception of the odd game here and there, have been against mediocre opposition in the past. This Celtic cup will be a competitive set of games worth so much more than a miserable nothing game against Denmark or somesuch. You can guarantee a "local" derby between the two Ireland will garner much more interest & enthusiasm, on and off the field, than said friendlies.

I totally agree. What's the difference between playing Scotland or Serbia? People go on about playing different styles but the fact is that in international football you play so few times per year and there are so many injuries that it's a crapshoot every time a world cup qualifier comes about. Just look at us - how often do we actually get to field our strongest eleven or even the same eleven three matches in a row?

[Noelys Guitar]

I totally agree. What's the difference between playing Scotland or Serbia? People go on about playing different styles but the fact is that in international football you play so few times per year and there are so many injuries that it's a crapshoot every time a world cup qualifier comes about. Just look at us - how often do we actually get to field our strongest eleven or even the same eleven three matches in a row?

This is nothing new. The original Home International series was scrapped because it was viewed as a waste of time. 6,000 fans for Wales v NI games in the 70's. A delusion was built up that a team like Scotland could win the 78 world cup after beating England in home international games (albeit not the last one before they travelled to Argentina).

[bennocelt]

Dunno how people can run this idea down; friendlies are becoming less relevant & with the exception of the odd game here and there, have been against mediocre opposition in the past. This Celtic cup will be a competitive set of games worth so much more than a miserable nothing game against Denmark or somesuch. You can guarantee a "local" derby between the two Ireland will garner much more interest & enthusiasm, on and off the field, than said friendlies.


I remember didnt a game with Norn iron only muster up 15,000 in Landsdowne Rd a few years ago, held to raise funds for the Omagh fund

[amaccann]

The questions though are simple ones:


How much can be learned for an Ireland team / manager in a friendly against, say, China?
How much can be learned for an Ireland team / manager in a "competitive" match against Scotland?


As for attendances, well; what's the average attendance for Scottish / NI / Welsh friendlies at the moment? I think Ireland is regarded as a rarity in that we somehow contrive to get near-full houses for our matches, most other nations don't get those kind of numbers imo.

[Gather round]

I remember didnt a game with Norn iron only muster up 15,000 in Landsdowne Rd a few years ago, held to raise funds for the Omagh fund?

I heard it was about 12,000. Mind you, there'd have been more there if the Scottish Cup Final hadn't been live on TV :)



international friendlies. Preferably v. better opposition than's being proposed here. I'd wager the Scots & Welsh would feel much the same.....the whole thing sounds like the perfect cure for Insomnia....

Brazil's youth team, Colombia and your other exotic opponents might be a bit better, but when the friendly is half-paced how can you tell? As for falling/ remaining asleep during games, I can provide anecdotal evidence of members of Mr Bhoy's party succumbing to slumber during your game in Cardiff last term. The bloke behind me and Lopez conked out shortly after kick-off?



I had to laugh at 'bragging rights' quote. The only people looking for those will be our wee minds from up north. I personally would have thought the 0-0 draw in Montenegro would be more worth a 'brag' than beating any of these three sh*te teams. I dare say the Welsh and Scots think the same

Well, I'll concede that we might celebrate any wins or even draws in this tournament more than the other teams. On the other hand, since none of us are much good at qualifying (one finals in the last 20 attempts since 1998), I wouldn't airly dismiss success even in a mickey mouse tournament. Even if Lopez would really prefer sneaking a draw against a bottom seed.

PS If a post-Delaney regime decides to pull out, I wouldn't mind if we invited one of the Scando or Benelux countries instead. Nice away trip, maybe.

[NeilMcD]

I , I wouldn't airly dismiss success even in a mickey mouse tournament. Even if Lopez would really prefer sneaking a draw against a bottom seed.




Technically they may be a bottom seed but the facts do not tell the story. They are only a bottom seed due to being a new country. I would say that if Ireland gets 4 points from the 2 games with Montenegro I will be delighted.

[gspain]

Technically they may be a bottom seed but the facts do not tell the story. They are only a bottom seed due to being a new country. I would say that if Ireland gets 4 points from the 2 games with Montenegro I will be delighted.


Do you think we can get any more than that? :D

[NeilMcD]

You never know if Graeme Poll or the guy who reffed the match between Reading and Watford at the weekend is there. You know know what might happen. :)

[Gather round]

Technically they may be a bottom seed but the facts do not tell the story. They are only a bottom seed due to being a new country. I would say that if Ireland gets 4 points from the 2 games with Montenegro I will be delighted

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Montenegro are thus seeded not least because of their size- only about 600,000 people. Although clearly they do have better players and I would guess a stronger league than the similarly-sized Malta or Luxembourg.

[gspain]

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Montenegro are thus seeded not least because of their size- only about 600,000 people. Although clearly they do have better players and I would guess a stronger league than the similarly-sized Malta or Luxembourg.

Can't recall but probably yes.

Seeding is done based on results in previous camapigns.

see here for the seedings for 2012 based on current results.

http://lucrurineinteresante.blogspot.com/2008/09/euro-2012-qualifying-draw-coefficients_11.html

[geysir]

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Montenegro are thus seeded not least because of their size- only about 600,000 people. Although clearly they do have better players and I would guess a stronger league than the similarly-sized Malta or Luxembourg.
Afair, the Russians and the Czechs took all the credits for the efforts of the USSR and Czechoslovakia.
Croatia, Ukraine and Slovakia started out at the bottom or near enough to
the bottom of the FIFA rankings.

[bennocelt]

I heard it was about 12,000. Mind you, there'd have been more there if the Scottish Cup Final hadn't been live on TV :)

.


im confused, how would a scottish game affect an irish home int?:)

[NeilMcD]

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Montenegro are thus seeded not least because of their size- only about 600,000 people. Although clearly they do have better players and I would guess a stronger league than the similarly-sized Malta or Luxembourg.

You sir are talking rubbish.

[Torn-Ado]

Celtic Cup?

Meh.

[Gather round]

Here's the qualifying table for Group 4 in Euro 96:

Team Pts Pld W D L GF GA
Croatia 23 10 7 2 1 22 5
Italy 23 10 7 2 1 20 6
Lithuania 16 10 5 1 4 13 12
Ukraine 13 10 4 1 5 11 15
Slovenia 11 10 3 2 5 13 13
Estonia 0 10 0 0 10 3 31

Croatia, Ukraine and Slovenia were all playing in their first tournament since splitting from the larger countries; Lithuania and Estonia in their second.

Contrast with Group 3

Team Pts Pld W D L GF GA
Switzerland 17 8 5 2 1 15 7
Turkey 15 8 4 3 1 16 8
Sweden 9 8 2 3 3 9 10
Hungary 8 8 2 2 4 7 13
Iceland 5 8 1 2 5 3 12

All teams that had been playing in the competitions, under those names, for decades. And thus earning ranking points. If the seedings had been purely according to recent qualifying results, you wouldn't have had three teams with none in one group and no teams with none in another. Quite clearly Ukraine and Croatia weren't seeded in the bottom pool. Incidentally Faroes and San marino were in the same qualifying group in this tournament.

Which part of it's nonsense, Neil?

[NeilMcD]

Due to the fact that the seedings are dont differently now than they were done then. Sure FIFA change the seedings all the time, FIFA rankings did not even exist then and now they are used to decide seedings which is why Montenegro are bottom seeds. They are bottom seeds for one reason and one reason only, because they are new.

You may try to cloud it by saying this did not happen with other countries 12 years ago, but the sytem was different then.

[youngirish]

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Montenegro are thus seeded not least because of their size- only about 600,000 people. Although clearly they do have better players and I would guess a stronger league than the similarly-sized Malta or Luxembourg.

And the far larger (in population terms) Northern Ireland.

[Supreme feet]

Were Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split from the larger Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia?

Yes, they were. As were Latvia and Lithuania when they took part in the USA '94 qualifiers. They were in our group, seeded behind Spain, ourselves, Denmark, Northern Ireland and Albania.

[geysir]

Which part of it's nonsense, Neil?

Croatia started out at 125th in FIFA rankings in 1992 and any team with that comparable level of ranking in 2008 would have been 6th seeded in the WC qual 2010.

You are deluding yourself if you think Montenegro are of a similar standard to Malta or Luxembourg.

[bennocelt]

Croatia started out at 125th in FIFA rankings in 1992 and any team with that comparable level of ranking in 2008 would have been 6th seeded in the WC qual 2010.

You are deluding yourself if you think Montenegro are of a similar standard to Malta or Luxembourg.

I reckon they are worse, and no im not joking

[Colbert Report]

I reckon they are worse, and no im not joking

When's the last time the likes of Malta or Luxembourg got a score draw home to Bulgaria back to back with a draw at home to Ireland?

[gspain]

When's the last time the likes of Malta or Luxembourg got a score draw home to Bulgaria back to back with a draw at home to Ireland?

When was the last time a team like Montenegro or Ireland won in Switzerland?

I don't agree btw that Montenegro are close to the standard of the bottom seeds.

[Colbert Report]

So you agree with me? The guy above me posted that he thinks that Montenegro are of lower quality than Malta and Luxembourg. Surely a wind-up.

[corkboy360]

The why the **** are we playing for this cup? would be a good name

[SkStu]

nothing since my last post has addressed how this is a bad idea.
B1tching for the sake of it.

[irishfan86]

One of the first things Jack Charlton did was win a "meaningless" tournament in Iceland.

This could turn out to be a useful exercise.

[bennocelt]

When's the last time the likes of Malta or Luxembourg got a score draw home to Bulgaria back to back with a draw at home to Ireland?

do you not watch football!!!!!!!! ThEy have NO STRIKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
so thats a bit of a handicap playing int football

Lux beat switzerland away
and malta have improved

[Gather round]

Due to the fact that the seedings are dont differently now than they were done then. Sure FIFA change the seedings all the time, FIFA rankings did not even exist then and now they are used to decide seedings which is why Montenegro are bottom seeds. They are bottom seeds for one reason and one reason only, because they are new. You may try to cloud it by saying this did not happen with other countries 12 years ago, but the sytem was different then

Er, FIFA rankings did exist then- on their own website they're listed as far back as 1993. My point was that Montenegro were given a bottom seeding partly because the country is so small- I'm fairly sure that if they were, say, 25 million people in the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine forming a new country, they wouldn't be lumped in the pot with San Marino and Andorra. Of course it's hypothetical, but as you say FIFA change their systems all the time.

My broader point is the one made by pundits John Anderson and Kenny Cunningham (I listened to the second half of the MN game on Radio Eireann). If you are going to make the play offs or better, a draw in Podgorica is two points dropped.



And the far larger (in population terms) Northern Ireland

Indeed. Although I think we can agree NI (still the 10th smallest country in UEFA) outdid expectations in Euro 2008, for all our lack of players in the Champions' League.



Yes, they were [Ukraine, Croatia and Slovakia all bottom seeds when they split]. As were Latvia and Lithuania when they took part in the USA '94 qualifiers. They were in our group, seeded behind Spain, ourselves, Denmark, Northern Ireland and Albania

How then do you explain, as per the example I quoted above, there being three bottom seeds (ie with no qualifying points from past tournaments) in one group, and none in another?



You are deluding yourself if you think Montenegro are of a similar standard to Malta or Luxembourg

I suggested they had better players, a stronger domestic league and by fairly obvious implication deserved a higher ranking than the other two. Where's the delusion?

[geysir]

Er, FIFA rankings did exist then- on their own website they're listed as far back as 1993. My point was that Montenegro were given a bottom seeding partly because the country is so small- I'm fairly sure that if they were, say, 25 million people in the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine forming a new country, they wouldn't be lumped in the pot with San Marino and Andorra. Of course it's hypothetical, but as you say FIFA change their systems all the time.

Montenenegro were given a 6th seed based on their FIFA ranking.
The FIFA ranking was used by FIFA as the basis for their seeding in the draw for the WC2010.
Nothing to do with the absurd idea of a population criteria.
If Croatia were accepted as a member association by FIFA at the same time as FIFA accepted Montenegro. they would also have been 6th seeds in the WC 2010 draw.


My broader point is the one made by pundits John Anderson and Kenny Cunningham (I listened to the second half of the MN game on Radio Eireann). If you are going to make the play offs or better, a draw in Podgorica is two points dropped.
On paper an away draw against a 6th seed is not good.
Bulgaria were fortunate to get a draw there whereas our draw was quite comfortable.
At least now, Montenegro are a better team than Georgia.

[youngirish]

You are all missing the irony of Gather round dismissing Montenegro as 6th seeds and comparing them to Malta and Luxembourg when I think most sensible people would instead argue that they are in fact probably a better team than his beloved Northern Ireland.

[Gather round]

You are all missing the irony of Gather round dismissing Montenegro as 6th seeds and comparing them to Malta and Luxembourg when I think most sensible people would instead argue that they are in fact probably a better team than his beloved Northern Ireland.

Don't see any irony, YI, since I stressed repeatedly above that I thought Montenegro were stronger than the other sixth seeds. Go back and read the thread's last couple of pages.

"Most sensible people" (ie, people that agree with Young Irish) might well think that Montenegro would have bettered 20 points in Euro 08. Or that they'll do better this time round, beat Italy etc.. Let's have a look at the league tables in February, that should give us a better idea.

[NeilMcD]

You made a petty little dig on our forum about Montenegor being 6th seeds. This is technically correct but as has been explained there are reasons for this due to the fact them being a new country. New countries are treated differently now than they were when Croatia and Ukraine etc were formed and joined FIFA. That is the fact of the matter.

YOu can come on to our forum all you like and wind people up if you like. Best of luck to you.

[youngirish]

You made a petty little dig on our forum about Montenegor being 6th seeds. This is technically correct but as has been explained there are reasons for this due to the fact them being a new country. New countries are treated differently now than they were when Croatia and Ukraine etc were formed and joined FIFA. That is the fact of the matter.

YOu can come on to our forum all you like and wind people up if you like. Best of luck to you.
In fairness Neil, Gather round was responding to a post originally from lopez which could also be interpreted as a wind up.

Lopez guilty or not?

[Gather round]

You made a petty little dig on our forum about Montenegor being 6th seeds. This is technically correct but as has been explained there are reasons for this due to the fact them being a new country. New countries are treated differently now than they were when Croatia and Ukraine etc were formed and joined FIFA. That is the fact of the matter.

YOu can come on to our forum all you like and wind people up if you like. Best of luck to you.


Come on Neil, lighten up. As digs go it was pretty gentle: I was responding to Lopez's preference for a draw with Montenegro rather than winning a competition, however Mickey Mouse you think it is, against three other local countries. I have said repeatedly on the thread that Montenegro are better than the other sixth seeds, but let's not kid ourselves that they're Worldbeaters until this series is over at least.

I think MN would have been treated differently were they a larger country, with likely better results in friendlies before their first qualifying series started. FIFA would have changed the seeding rules. But we'll probably never know, just my opinion. As opposed to your 'fact' that there weren't any World rankings before Euro 1996, for example.

Actually, I came onto this thread in 'your' forum because it's about other teams, including NI. I mean, who were you expecting? Brazil fans?

I've no wish to wind up anyone on here, not even mi buen amigo Senor Lopez. And even if I did, I'm sure after 6,000 odd posts you're more than capable of answering or ignoring :)

[ifk101]

Whilst I have doubts about this tournament, I think it is a good choice that Ireland has been chosen as the initial hosts of the tournament as with the new Lansdowne Rd there is a reasonable chance that these games (the Irish games at least) will be sold out.

However whether the next hosts of the competition will be able to sell out the games is debatable. The recent attendance at the Scotland-NI friendly suggests this will be a hard sell. Added to this is that certain participants do not have a venue suitable for international football. This could be a short-lived football experiment.

[Gather round]

Whilst I have doubts about this tournament, I think it is a good choice that Ireland has been chosen as the initial hosts of the tournament as with the new Lansdowne Rd there is a reasonable chance that these games (the Irish games at least) will be sold out.

However whether the next hosts of the competition will be able to sell out the games is debatable. The recent attendance at the Scotland-NI friendly suggests this will be a hard sell. Added to this is that certain participants do not have a venue suitable for international football. This could be a short-lived football experiment

My main reservations about the tournament are the oddity of holding it all in one city but over two dates two months apart; and that the fruitier end of our support might misbehave in Dublin, alas.

Two visiting teams are obviously unlikely to sell out Lansdowne, however seriously the teams/ fans take the tournament.

Our lack of a decent stadium remains a problem. Can't really offer much more than watch this space for the moment, sadly. Our new sports boss, Greg Campbell doesn't seem to have done much since getting the job :(

PS Wales and Scotland at least have the choice of modern stadia to stage any future tournament. If they aren't going to sell out Hampden or Millennium, Swansea or Dundee would do just as well.

[gspain]

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