Progressive Democrats Future

[pete]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/0917/1221599424850.html)



THE FUTURE of the Progressive Democrats is to be decided by a special conference of the membership to take place next month. This is in line with a recommendation by the four PD members of the Oireachtas who have collectively stated that the party is no longer viable.


Only a matter of time before they fold. FF & FG will be over to pick at the carcass for new members.

Nearly all the other parties have adopted the PDs policies so not much room left for them. Low taxes are now standard economic policy for almost all members of the Dail & even SF have adopted the low Corporation tax policy. On social side even less difference across the parties.

[OneRedArmy]

I think they effectively folded last night.

The congress is only a legal formality.

Good riddance.

[sadloserkid]

Good riddance.

My thoughts exactly.

[jebus]

I echo the sentiments of the above posters :)

[superfrank]

Same here.

Waste of a party. They ought just return to FF and stop kidding themselves.

[pete]

Whatever you think of them for a lifespan of 20 odd years they have been very effective in economic policy.

[superfrank]

They might have stood for something when they started out but in the last two Govs, they've been mere puppets for FF.

[OneRedArmy]

Whatever you think of them for a lifespan of 20 odd years they have been very effective in economic policy.If you accept that the fruits of economic policy decisions made in the 60's and 70's only ripened in the 80's and 90's, then the opposite is true: they and FF made an almighty balls of it.

[Angus]

Interesting thought here. After that first election when they broke / became the mould on Irish politics, they were basically part of the "Others" and within the margin of error.

I have a serious problem with the fact that in 2002 the PD's vote fell from 84,000 (4.7%) to 74,000 (4%) yet their seats doubled and they essentially decided who formed the government.

In 2007 their vote fell agin to 56,000 (2.7%) yet they still commanded a senior ministry.

Duyring the same time the Sinn Fein vote, for example (a part I have no time for by the way) increased from 46,000 (2.6%) to 121,000 (6.5%) to 143,000 (7%) yet had nothing like this national impact.

No, I know that our system prescribes for all of this nonsense but fundamentally 3 times as many people in the state voted for SF but the PD's have a much bigger say in government and specifically in the health service.

Our system is fundamentally undemocratic even at the basic reflection of the wishes of the people in government formation - even before we get into the problems with the electoral register and the party system etc

If this wasn't enough, all of the "main" parties are now trying to figure a way of doing something which the people specifically rejected - let's clal tyhis what it is - facism.

[pete]

If you accept that the fruits of economic policy decisions made in the 60's and 70's only ripened in the 80's and 90's, then the opposite is true: they and FF made an almighty balls of it.

Not sure what decisions were made in the 60s & 70s?

Before my time but the only decisions made in the 70s that affected everyone later was to borrow to pay for newly created public jobs. The 80s through to mid 90s was basically a depression with 20%+ unemployment.

SF have evolved to the point other parties might think of joining with them to form a government but even 5 years ago they were so far left no one would touch them.

[OneRedArmy]

Not sure what decisions were made in the 60s & 70s?
Joining the EEC.
Moving from protectionism to actively seeking to attract Foreign Direct Investment.

The two biggest reasons we aren't still an agricultural backwater.

[pete]

Joining the EEC.
Moving from protectionism to actively seeking to attract Foreign Direct Investment.

The two biggest reasons we aren't still an agricultural backwater.

True, but I don't see that it suddenly took affect in the mid to late 90s. EU membership & grants would not have seen the boom without low taxes.

[Macy]

Good riddance, although they'll just go back to where they come from - the right wing of FF, and to a lesser degree FG.

The only thing they can claim credit for is changing us to a totally regressive tax system. The well off have done far better out of the PD era than the rest of the population. Latest is the scam which is co-location.

They've also overseen a massive expansion of public sector and the bench marking process. I don't necessarily have an issue with this, but they're the ones that are supposed to be about controlling the public sector pay bill and increased efficiency. The less said about the absolute the hames of the Health Service the better and it's to FF everlasting shame that they still hide behind Harney in health.

Essentially though, PD policies always were FF policies - things like enshrining profit into our health care system are as much the fault of FF as the PD's. Now they'll have to have the courage of their convictions rather than getting their revenge on the splitters by hiding behind them.

[dublinred]

I think they effectively folded last night.

The congress is only a legal formality.

Good riddance.

Agree, as I recall Eircom Park was dropped in favoour of the bertie bowl which was then blocked by the PDs.

[pete]

Agree, as I recall Eircom Park was dropped in favoour of the bertie bowl which was then blocked by the PDs.

I believe classic Bertie (TM) used them as a scapegoat.

[Dodge]

The less said about the absolute the hames of the Health Service the better

Not enough people use the word "hames". I wasn't even sure of its spelling.

PDs were always ego driven. Can't believe no-one is mentioning the hames that McDowell made of immigration law and his ridiculous crusade against the Shinners (not that clamping donw on them wasn't a good idea in itself).

They were in charge of two portfolios the last government, and ballsed both of them up. Luckily the Irish public saw through them and their horrible right wing agenda and voted them all out bar harney (who squeeked through) and Grealish.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Essentially though, PD policies always were FF policies - things like enshrining profit into our health care system are as much the fault of FF as the PD's. Now they'll have to have the courage of their convictions rather than getting their revenge on the splitters by hiding behind them.

There's a lot of truth in this and I'm looking forward to the hits FF are holefully going to take now that their plausible deniability has evaporated. FF have a large muppet contingent in their support who believe in nonsense about them being socially leftist Peoples party when they are more often a large vat of grease for big wheels.

As for the PDs themselves, I've voted for them and their candidates in the past though I don't agree with large dollops of their ideology. They have been far more straightforward though in presenting and implementing policy than the weasle-worded all-things-to-all-men rank sh1te the two main (and ideologically indecernable) partys present.

I think the wheels came loose for them around the time they conived to ensure Pat Cox would not become leader. Cox might come across as a being very much a "suit" but they haven't had anyone next nor near their leadership since him who could do that whole ...Blair thing.

They were indeed also responsible for putting the Bertie Bowl to the sword and for that at least I'll be greatful.

[pete]

The demise of the PDs is bad news for the Greens as the fingers will point at them when FF need their new scapegoats. Even blaming Mary Harney for Health seems bizarre as FF put her into a role when her vote is not required for the government to function.

[John83]

Even blaming Mary Harney for Health seems bizarre as FF put her into a role when her vote is not required for the government to function.
She's there because you can't win with Health. The smartest, most competent minister the country's ever seen could be given Health, and it'd be the end of him. I think she genuinely believes she's doing good there, which is why she's happy to do it. FF are just happy to have someone else to take it in the neck when there are complaints over some inefficiency, or over some measure to improve efficiency.

[pete]

She's there because you can't win with Health. The smartest, most competent minister the country's ever seen could be given Health, and it'd be the end of him. I think she genuinely believes she's doing good there, which is why she's happy to do it. FF are just happy to have someone else to take it in the neck when there are complaints over some inefficiency, or over some measure to improve efficiency.

Agreed. Harney thinks in 10 years time everyone will look back at her great work. FF strategy is very effective as it is Harney & the PDs who get blamed by the public for Health as if somehow FF had no control over what she was doing. The HSE & co-location are government policy not PD policy.

If "Carbon taxes" are introduced you can be guaranteed it will be Green policy & not government policy.

[Macy]

If "Carbon taxes" are introduced you can be guaranteed it will be Green policy & not government policy.
I might've said on another thread, but I've no doubt that we'll see "carbon taxes" in the next budget. Won't be ring fenced for environmental/ public transport projects though, it'll go into the general taxation pot. "It wasn't us it was the PD's" will become "it wasn't us it was the Greens"