Government's skewed priorities to the fore again...

[BohDiddley]

The earlier bit of the song seems far more offensive to me. It is however offensive to Roman Catholics and not to Irish people per se. There is a difference despite Kieran Westwood's claims.

Should the Polish government complain?

I still don't think our government should have got involved.
With you all the way on Westwood. But do you seriously think the song is about Poles?

[gspain]

With you all the way on Westwood. But do you seriously think the song is about Poles?

I assume they were referring to the late Pope in Big John. I don't think the Polish government should be involved though.

Fans of 2 British football teams sing offensive songs about each other. One makes a derogatory reference to an event which happened here and suddenly our government is involves which associates our country with one of the teams.

[Mayo_Bhoy]

oh ah up the RA

The Boys of the old Brigade.

They aren't sung at CP anymore only at away games because both OF clubs have clamped down on signing at home games but not away games which are virtually season ticket holder only events.


See hundreds of Rangers fans dressed up in Celtic gear singing sectarian songs here to discredit the great club.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOwqWQS8oRY

Boys of the Old Brigade reefers to the War of Independence as i'm sure you well know so i don't see why you mention this.

You dont hear the ooh aah up the ra add ons much nowadays either and the tiny minority that sing it are usually shouted down. Even singing BOTOB at away games is now frowned on by a significant section of the Celtic support. The Rangers fans were singing the famine song en masse.

Also why do you think songs about the IRA are sectarian. I was never a supporter of the provos but i dont regard them as sectarian. Anyway your definition of sectarian is preety wide i'd imagine.

[Mayo_Bhoy]

I assume they were referring to the late Pope in Big John. I don't think the Polish government should be involved though.



You assume wrong.

[Mayo_Bhoy]

The famine happened because the government of the day refused to intervene in the operation of the free market to assist the vulnerable. Basically the same philosophy the PDs and Fianna Fáil have espoused for the past decade. People are still dying on trolleys and in alleyways due to this doctrine.

So what do we think of the famine? We voted for it.

Is there a stupid statement of the month award??? WTF is this supposed to mean???

[BohDiddley]

an event which happened here
That's an interesting way of putting it. Your entry for euphemism of the century? What phraseology do holocaust deniers use?

[gspain]

You assume wrong.

Are you going to tell me who it refers to then?

[sonofstan]

The famine happened because the government of the day refused to intervene in the operation of the free market to assist the vulnerable. Basically the same philosophy the PDs and Fianna Fáil have espoused for the past decade. People are still dying on trolleys and in alleyways due to this doctrine. So what do we think of the famine? We voted for it.

Off topic, but interesting to note how quickly governments in all the G8 countries have rushed to the aid of stricken banks in the past few days in appearently blatant contradiction of the doctrine outlined above...

[Réiteoir]

Are you going to tell me who it refers to then?

it refers to Jock Stein (whose actual first name was John) - according to a former Celtic Boys Club Chairman - in the early 1970s, young boys were abused by a youth coach at the club called James Torbett. Stein is reputeded to have known about this, personally kicked Torbett out of the club and as was the fashion in those days - not reported the matter to the authorities.

Hence the chant you sometimes used to hear "Big Jock Knew"

[gspain]

quotes from 2 posts combined.




Which IRA songs are sung?? Seriuosly i'd like to know but cos i never hear any at CP??? Then again i suspect you wont't name any.



Boys of the Old Brigade reefers to the War of Independence as i'm sure you well know so i don't see why you mention this.

You dont hear the ooh aah up the ra add ons much nowadays either and the tiny minority that sing it are usually shouted down. Even singing BOTOB at away games is now frowned on by a significant section of the Celtic support. The Rangers fans were singing the famine song en masse.

Also why do you think songs about the IRA are sectarian. I was never a supporter of the provos but i dont regard them as sectarian. Anyway your definition of sectarian is preety wide i'd imagine.

You claimed I wouldn't be able to provide any. Now you talk about minorities and them being shouted down. I forgot "I I IRA btw" and of course "U U UDA" from the Rangers fans.

I've no doubt many decent Celtic supporters do frown upion such songs. I know some that do.

The Panorama programme (probably on youtube somewhere I'm sure you know the one) didn't show any evidence of such songs being shouted down.

The IRA/UDA/UVF committed many sectarian atrocities. They killed people because of their religion eg Kingsmills, La Mon, Shankhill Road, Enniskillen by the IRA. Greysteel, Loughinisland et al by the Loyalist terrorists. Although each organisation claimed to be non sectarian few in the other community ever believed them. Even the Klan claim not to be racist however not too many believe them either. How wide a definition of sectarianism would you need to include such organisations?

Do you consider "UVF and UDA" chants to be sectarian?

[gspain]

it refers to Jock Stein (whose actual first name was John) - according to a former Celtic Boys Club Chairman - in the early 1970s, young boys were abused by a youth coach at the club called James Torbett. Stein is reputeded to have known about this, personally kicked Torbett out of the club and as was the fashion in those days - not reported the matter to the authorities.

Hence the chant you sometimes used to hear "Big Jock Knew"

Thanks.

[L37Ultra]

seriously sometimes i hate league of ireland fans. for a league you tell people to support cause its irish, a lot seem to actually hate ireland.


Oh Yeah, just because a few League Of Ireland fans have an opinion or a view on something on here means that we all think the same :rolleyes::o We all know each other and meet up every week to think of a new way of fighting against non-LOI fans :D

[Mayo_Bhoy]

quotes from 2 posts combined.



You claimed I wouldn't be able to provide any. Now you talk about minorities and them being shouted down. I forgot "I I IRA btw" and of course "U U UDA" from the Rangers fans.

I have nerver heard the above IRA chant at a match.


I've no doubt many decent Celtic supporters do frown upion such songs. I know some that do.

The Panorama programme (probably on youtube somewhere I'm sure you know the one) didn't show any evidence of such songs being shouted down.

Not sure what prog you are referring to. I'd be interested to watch it. Any link?


The IRA/UDA/UVF committed many sectarian atrocities. They killed people because of their religion eg Kingsmills, La Mon, Shankhill Road, Enniskillen by the IRA. Greysteel, Loughinisland et al by the Loyalist terrorists. Although each organisation claimed to be non sectarian few in the other community ever believed them. Even the Klan claim not to be racist however not too many believe them either. How wide a definition of sectarianism would you need to include such organisations?

Do you consider "UVF and UDA" chants to be sectarian?

We are not going to agree on this so no point going down this road, but for the record i do consider UVF and UDA chants to be sectarian because their sole raison d'etre was to terrorise the Catholic community. You may argue that the IRA carried out sectarian attackes but i don't agree.

For the record i have seen idiotic Celtic supporteres in pubs etc chanting IRA slogans but never at matches. Subtle difference to the Rangers fans but anyway i'll leave it at that.

[gspain]

I have nerver heard the above IRA chant at a match.



Not sure what prog you are referring to. I'd be interested to watch it. Any link?



We are not going to agree on this so no point going down this road, but for the record i do consider UVF and UDA chants to be sectarian because their sole raison d'etre was to terrorise the Catholic community. You may argue that the IRA carried out sectarian attackes but i don't agree.

For the record i have seen idiotic Celtic supporteres in pubs etc chanting IRA slogans but never at matches. Subtle difference to the Rangers fans but anyway i'll leave it at that.

Programme here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4284023.stm

I think you ar eplaying with words. both clubs have all but edadicated the sectarian chanting from their home games. The problem still exists at away games.

So have you heard the Loyalist chants at matches then?

The minority of Rangers fans who sing UVF songs etc wil lclaim they are not sectarian because th eLoyalist terrorists were just trying to protect them from being overun by a papist state bullsh!t bullsh!t.

I'd love to hear your explanation of Kibngsmill. Not sectarian because the prods killed xyz first which of course wasn't sectarian because the taigs killed abc but ........

[jebus]

Mayo Boy are you serious? Celtic fans don't sing sectarian songs? Here's one I heard over in Glasgow at the end of last season

Who's that standing at the seaside
Who's that standing by the shore
It's Mountbatten and his wife
And she's paralyzed for life
And she won't support Rangers anymore

Wasn't sung in the ground but it was sung on the walk back into town after the Hibs game

[geysir]

Where are you getting the line "From Ireland they came"?
Looks like you are doing summersaults, along with huge gaps of vision (blindness) in order for you continue to believe that this song is not offensive to the Irish community.

I often wonder where they would have been
If we hadn't have taken them in
Fed them and washed them
Thousands in Glasgow alone
From Ireland they came
Brought us nothing but trouble and shame
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

The "They" used in the lyrics throughout refers to the Irish.

[galwayhoop]

It is however offensive to Roman Catholics and not to Irish people per se.

the roman catholic community is distinctly interlinked with the Irish emigrant community in Scotland. Prior to the famine there was less than 10 (yes less than one football team!!) roman catholics in the greater Glasgow region, by the turn of the century there was a couple of hundred thousand - all Irish emigrants and their descendants.

Scotland is distinct, to my knowledge to most (and perhaps all) european countries in that virtually all roman catholics born in the country are of Irish descent (excluding emigants of the last twenty years).

therefore in this instance to insult one is to insult the other - both are viewed as two sides of the same coin.

thankfully in Ireland (26 counties version anyway) i can't remember the last time i heard of someone wondering/enquiring if someone was catholic or protestant prior to engaging with them socially, economically or professionally.

To Scotland's shame the same cannot be said there - and this is almost exclusively as a result of negative emotions of the 'native' population resulting from the influx of Irish emigrants during and subsequent to the famine.

The paradox of Northern Irish protestants (most descended from Ulster Scots) claiming equal rights (as a minimun) over the six counties and the bitter disregard still held toward enforced migrants in the opposite direction is not lost on me.

[Mayo_Bhoy]

Mayo Boy are you serious? Celtic fans don't sing sectarian songs? Here's one I heard over in Glasgow at the end of last season

Who's that standing at the seaside
Who's that standing by the shore
It's Mountbatten and his wife
And she's paralyzed for life
And she won't support Rangers anymore

Wasn't sung in the ground but it was sung on the walk back into town after the Hibs game

Yes, i have heard that sung away from the ground and it's sick and disgusting but it is not sectarian. If we are going to talk about vile songs, fine, but just beacause a song is evil and vile doesnt make it sectarian or bigoted.

[BeaumontBohs]

the roman catholic community is distinctly interlinked with the Irish emigrant community in Scotland. Prior to the famine there was less than 10 (yes less than one football team!!) roman catholics in the greater Glasgow region, by the turn of the century there was a couple of hundred thousand - all Irish emigrants and their descendants.

What Galway Hoop forgot to mention is that their were over a 100 anti Catholic organisations in Glasgow at the time. Celtic Hibs and Dundee Hibs were formed to give the Irish something to be proud as the Irish were treated as vermin by the native Scots.

[jebus]

Yes, i have heard that sung away from the ground and it's sick and disgusting but it is not sectarian. If we are going to talk about vile songs, fine, but just beacause a song is evil and vile doesnt make it sectarian or bigoted.

It's a song that glorifies an attack on protestant British lord by a (supposedly)Catholic terrorist group, what's not sectarian about it?

[BohDiddley]

How does the fact that idiotic Celtic fans sing sectarian songs celebrating violence make it inappropriate to register an objection to a dirge that taunts people of Irish extraction about the famine (henceforth to be described as, erm, 'an event').

[jebus]

How does the fact that idiotic Celtic fans sing sectarian songs celebrating violence make it inappropriate to register an objection to a dirge that taunts people of Irish extraction about the famine (henceforth to be described as, erm, 'an event').

It doesn't, and I never said it did

[Réiteoir]

and finally - just to add my experience to the thread - back in the early part of this decade (could have been 2000) - I was in Oslo for a break to catch a couple of matches going on over there (one was a match which saw Valerenga promoted back to the Norwegian Premier) - the other was a Champions League match between Rosenborg and Celtic up in Trondheim.

Went up on a coach organised by the Norwegian Celtic SC (or whatever they were known as) - a 7 hour trip or so.

The only CD they had on for this entire journey was a collection of "songs" by a group called "Shebeen" - two of which were the SAM Song and "Go on Home British Soldiers" - both of which were sung heartily by the majority of the coach.

Let's just say - it wasn't personally the most comfortable of journeys for me tbh...

[bennocelt]

It's a song that glorifies an attack on protestant British lord by a (supposedly)Catholic terrorist group, what's not sectarian about it?

ah come on, you could get better examples that that - Enniskillen for one

Mountbatten wasn't killed cause he was a Protestant

[BohDiddley]

It doesn't, and I never said it did
So why are all these Celtic ditties you're citing relevant?

[gspain]

Looks like you are doing summersaults, along with huge gaps of vision (blindness) in order for you continue to believe that this song is not offensive to the Irish community.

I often wonder where they would have been
If we hadn't have taken them in
Fed them and washed them
Thousands in Glasgow alone
From Ireland they came
Brought us nothing but trouble and shame
Well the famine is over
Why don't they go home?

The "They" used in the lyrics throughout refers to the Irish.

You have now quoted a different verse not previously quoted.

I never said the song wasn't offensive. I just said our government shouldn't have got involved.

[geysir]

You have now quoted a different verse not previously quoted.
You are still doing sommersaults :rolleyes:
I have quoted another verse but from the same song ffs.
They = Irish , understand?. They rape their children, they spread their evil seed.


I never said the song wasn't offensive.
You wrote that the song was not offensive to Irish people
"It is however offensive to Roman Catholics and not to Irish people per se"
When it is clearly offensive to Irish people.


I just said our government shouldn't have got involved.
And the Government did not get involved, the embassy got involved as they are almost mandated to do in such cases. Forward the letter to the proper authorities.

[Sheridan]

We don't have an embassy in Scotland as it's not a country. It's inconceivable that a consulate or embassy would unilaterally protest to another government without consulting with the Department of Foreign Affairs. So yes, this was a government intervention.

[sonofstan]

We don't have an embassy in Scotland as it's not a country. It's inconceivable that a consulate or embassy would unilaterally protest to another government without consulting with the Department of Foreign Affairs. So yes, this was a government intervention.

We have a consulate (http://www.irishconsulatescotland.co.uk/home/index.aspx?id=46612) in Edinburgh.

[Sheridan]

Yeah, that was kinda my point. We have a consulate, not an embassy. The Irish Embassy in the UK is in the national capital, London.

[geysir]

We don't have an embassy in Scotland as it's not a country. It's inconceivable that a consulate or embassy would unilaterally protest to another government without consulting with the Department of Foreign Affairs. So yes, this was a government intervention.
It is inconceivable to you because your knowledge is perhaps very limited on these matters. But however it is easy for you to be so certain about your thoughts.
The letter was forwarded by the First secretary of Irish Community affairs to the Irish Consul General in Edinburgh.
She has a regular meeting with the Scottish Government where the issue was raised.
It is perfectly well within the brief of the Irish Community officer's duty to act in this manner without any consultation with the Irish Gov..

[gspain]

You are still doing sommersaults :rolleyes:
I have quoted another verse but from the same song ffs.
They = Irish , understand?. They rape their children, they spread their evil seed.


You wrote that the song was not offensive to Irish people
"It is however offensive to Roman Catholics and not to Irish people per se"
When it is clearly offensive to Irish people.


And the Government did not get involved, the embassy got involved as they are almost mandated to do in such cases. Forward the letter to the proper authorities.


Because you (or anybody else) hadn't quoted this new verse referring to Ireland. The song is meant to be offensive to Celtic fans.

It was pointed out above that the child abuse actually applies specifically to Celtic in the 70's and not a general slur on the RC church as I'd assumed. So "they" does not equal "Catholic" or even "Ireland" it equals "Celtic"

The BBC report states that the embassy in London got involved. Last time I checked the Department of foregin affairs was part of our government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7617518.stm

My main point is you have 2 foreign football teams playing a game in the UK who typically abuse and sing songs at each other. I don't like one of them being associated with this country and all the sectarian trappings etc.

Strange those Celtic fans were so offended by references to the famine and not by all the stuff on child abuse they are accused in the song of being complicit with. The logiical thing would be to go to the police and complain and leave our government out of it.

[Réiteoir]

To quote Homer Simpson from the episode of the Simpsons about the move of the Springfield Isotopes to Alberquerque:

"Hungry for the Truth"

[galwayhoop]

My main point is you have 2 foreign football teams playing a game in the UK who typically abuse and sing songs at each other. I don't like one of them being associated with this country and all the sectarian trappings etc.

Whether you 'like it' or not the fact is that one of those teams was formed explicitly for (and by) Irish emigrants in the late nineteenth century. It has been (and is) supported by ex-pats and 2g and 3g Irish since it's inception. The matter of you liking it or not is immaterial.

Are Celtic an Irish football club? No
Are Celtic a football club of Irish extraction? Yes

Many Irish (myself included) only started following Celtic when living overseas and as a football club (and institution) it is very identifiable for ex-pats. My support continued even after returning home. My children (born in the UK) are Irish and many native Glaswegians are Irish too.

[celticV3]

can't see why people have to drag there negative attitude towards celtic into everything. Instead of reading the story and giving their opinion they have to start with the anti celtic crap.

I dont care about everyone's feelings towards celtic, but when i see a team regardless who it is making a joke an being abusive about an era in irish history that killed over a million irish and forced another million to emigrate, i won't be happy unless i know that someone has taken this seriously within our government at least. As was said before if it was about the holocaust it would be outrageous but because its against celtic it's alright to have a go at the 'plastic paddy's'.

There are a large following of celtic supporters that are proud of their irish heritage and are part of the irish diaspora in glasgow. They are a scottish club but whether people like it or not there is an irish connection.

[Mayo_Bhoy]

Strange those Celtic fans were so offended by references to the famine and not by all the stuff on child abuse they are accused in the song of being complicit with. The logiical thing would be to go to the police and complain and leave our government out of it.

You really don't have a clue do you?? Celtic fans have been up in arms about this song for the past two seasons. This thread was started because the Irish state became involved. If you knew anything about Celtic fans you would know how strongly they feel about the jock song.

[geysir]

Because you (or anybody else) hadn't quoted this new verse referring to Ireland.
Not true, you just had another blind spot episode.
The link to all the lyrics was given on the first page of this thread.


The song is meant to be offensive to Celtic fans. It was pointed out above that the child abuse actually applies specifically to Celtic in the 70's and not a general slur on the RC church as I'd assumed. So "they" does not equal "Catholic" or even "Ireland" it equals "Celtic"
When you read the whole song it is about the Irish and directed at the Celtic support. There is no attempt in the lyrics to separate Irish emigrants from the section of Irish community who are Celtic support.
Overall, in the context of the history of anti Irish bigotry in Scotland, this song is anti Irish, not just anti Celtic.

The BBC report states that the embassy in London got involved. Last time I checked the Department of foregin affairs was part of our government.

Pedantically yes, the Emabassy is connected officially to the Irish Gov.
The reality is that this affair is not at all the direct concern of the Irish Gov.
The Embassy has it's Irish Community officers for the Irish community in Britain,
not the Irish in Ireland.
They act on the brief of their job description which is to represent in some way the interests of the Irish Community. A Community officer forwarding a letter via the Consul to proper authorities, about a racially offensive song, is an community officer doing his job.
How many Irish citizens do you think live in Scotland?
All Irish citizens are entitled to receive assistance from the Embassy.
It has sfa got to do with the Irish Government as in the disingenuos hysterical claims here about "Irish government involved" in Scottish affairs.


My main point is you have 2 foreign football teams playing a game in the UK who typically abuse and sing songs at each other. I don't like one of them being associated with this country and all the sectarian trappings etc.
You don't like them people being associated with Ireland :rolleyes:
What you like or don't like is not relevant except that it explains your prejudice and your generalisations.
This issue is about Irish citizens and the Irish Community living in Scotland who are entitled to receive the legal protection from material which is deemed to be racially offensive. Irish citizens and others are quite entitled, after their complaints about racial abuse have fallen on deaf ears, to bring Irish related abuse matters to the community officer at the Irish Embassy.

Strange those Celtic fans were so offended by references to the famine and not by all the stuff on child abuse they are accused in the song of being complicit with.
Do you think the Rangers football fans could actually sing the whole song at Celtic Park:rolleyes:
And yet you assume that the father of 2 young kids and others were not offended by the child abuse stuff.
I'm afraid it is you Gspain who is displaying a selective prejudice.