View Full Version : The Gluas
gilberto_eire
11/09/2008, 1:16 AM
http://www.galwaynews.ie/4905-gluas-gets-goahead
GALWAY City Councillors have given their unanimous support to plans for a €200 million light rail system for the city, which has the potential to cut traffic by around 20%.
Consultants are set to be appointed later this month to carry out a feasibility study into public transport in the city and will be ordered to look specifically at the proposed new system.
It is envisaged that the GLUAS system — the brainchild of several city business organisations — could carry around 12,000 passengers daily on its two city routes at an average of €2.50 per journey.
According to city businessman Brendan Holland, Chairman of the GLUAS group, the system would offer 21km of light railway, which would have tracks embedded eight inches into city streets.
Very good move IMO,with the rising costs of fuel,increased congestion and the affordability of cars now everything will grind to a halt in 15 years IMO. It's just not going to be possible for everyone to have there own transport, so it's good the council have gone ahead with a more feasible transport system!!
Very good move IMO,with the rising costs of fuel,increased congestion and the affordability of cars now everything will grind to a halt in 15 years IMO. It's just not going to be possible for everyone to have there own transport, so it's good the council have gone ahead with a more feasible transport system!!
Obviously public transport is good, but feasable at €200m for 12,000 passengers a day???
monutdfc
11/09/2008, 8:21 AM
A Monorail!
I was in Galway in the summer and it is the worst example of city "planning" in a city that could have been the best. From a compact centre it has morphed into an ugly sprawl of plastic clad retail outlets, supermarkets and apartment blocks clinging to the ring-road and the roads that feed onto the ring roads. Totally car-reliant development and it'll take more than a luas to sort it out.
The Luas cost E31m per kilometre but E200m implies the Gluas will cost less than 1/3 of that. Even allowing for quicker construction it seems unwise as costs are guaranteed to rise.
:confused:
Dodge
11/09/2008, 11:12 AM
Maybe its a better time to be starting a construction project as it is most certainly a "buyers" market
I'd imagine it costs a fair bit less to build in Galway than Dublin too (with nothing to base that on)
The cost spiral of LUAS was a nonsense (although didn't it officially come in on budget :rolleyes:), but at the same time the Dublin Luas carries 150,000passengers a day.
As ever, the corrupt and crap planning is the problem. No density to really make these things viable, so people are stuck in their cars. And yet some would have you believe that corruption didn't and doesn't did any harm and fair play to them for getting away with it. :rolleyes:
mypost
11/09/2008, 11:15 AM
Consultants are set to be appointed later this month to carry out a feasibility study into public transport in the city
Jaysus, that won't take very long, to find it's unfeasible. There's neither the passengers nor the city population to make it viable. You'd need a city Dublin's size, and 20 million passengers a year to make it profitable.
Would be better off extending the Western Rail Corridor from Galway to Mayo, and on to Sligo and Donegal with that kind of money.
gilberto_eire
11/09/2008, 8:21 PM
Jaysus, that won't take very long, to find it's unfeasible. There's neither the passengers nor the city population to make it viable. You'd need a city Dublin's size, and 20 million passengers a year to make it profitable.
Would be better off extending the Western Rail Corridor from Galway to Mayo, and on to Sligo and Donegal with that kind of money.
Why do you need a million people for a rail line? if there are 100 seats in the tram you only need to fill 100 seats:confused:.
There are a massive number of students here, you can be sure the majority of them will be using it!!
If the 12k use it per day that works out at around €21million per year in fares received, couple this with the increasing city population and that will rise. You've also got the influx of tourists for various events like the Arts festival, Races etc... hardly infeasible?
Galway was the fastest growing city in Europe a year or two ago(not sure is it now), why shouldn't we make arrangements for alternative transport before the city get's gridlocked(i.e Dublin)
Galway's not big enough for a tram in my opinion, neither is Cork or Limerick, any of those cities could use one, but the potential cost of devolpment, coupled with the cost of running, would far outweigh the profits returned I think
Ive lived here in Galway city all my life.I use my bike to get around town as its alot quicker and i would absolutely love this GLUAS to be built.I think it will work,it doesnt have to be flashy,just a tram to get ppl from A to B without having to use the car.Im 110% in favour of this project.
Galway is a bigger city then Limerick yet gets less funding from the government then it and only marginally more funding then Waterford which is half the size(info from an edition of a local newspaper "The City Tribune" from about a month ago).My point being that the government could make up for years of underfunding of the city by setting aside the funds needed for this.
Why do you need a million people for a rail line? if there are 100 seats in the tram you only need to fill 100 seats:confused:.
There are a massive number of students here, you can be sure the majority of them will be using it!!
If the 12k use it per day that works out at around €21million per year in fares received, couple this with the increasing city population and that will rise.
With the Luas I would imagine the state paid for the construction & the day to day costs must be piad by the fares + profit for the operator. I don't know if 21m is enough for day to day costs.
Dublin should not get everything but projects also have to be feasible. I would guess 12k a day is on work days & would be lower at the weekends. You also need good density near the line to get passengers.
One circular line would be better than 2 lines. Are there plans to join them?
Lionel Ritchie
13/09/2008, 10:45 AM
Ive lived here in Galway city all my life.I use my bike to get around town as its alot quicker and i would absolutely love this GLUAS to be built.I think it will work,it doesnt have to be flashy,just a tram to get ppl from A to B without having to use the car.Im 110% in favour of this project.
Galway is a bigger city then Limerick yet gets less funding from the government then it and only marginally more funding then Waterford which is half the size(info from an edition of a local newspaper "The City Tribune" from about a month ago).My point being that the government could make up for years of underfunding of the city by setting aside the funds needed for this.
I shouldn't get dragged into another of these "we're bigger than you" yokes but the highlighted bit is based on massaged, circumspect and ultimately misleading statistics. Galways very own wiki page acknowledges this.
I don't know the ins and outs of your funding complaint (funding for what btw?) but if Limerick City is getting extra help these days then it's likely to do with repairing the damage caused by decades old decisions to lump every gob****e and loola from Limerick City, Limerick County and many from Counties Tipp and Clare into urban nighmare reservations on the fringe of the city ...owing to it's geographical location which helps create the massaged stats I referred to earlier.
Incidently we had a perfectly good tram in Limerick once upon a time and some moron took the time and trouble to rip the entire thing out.
gilberto_eire
13/09/2008, 10:52 PM
I shouldn't get dragged into another of these "we're bigger than you" yokes but the highlighted bit is based on massaged, circumspect and ultimately misleading statistics. Galways very own wiki page acknowledges this.
I don't know the ins and outs of your funding complaint (funding for what btw?) but if Limerick City is getting extra help these days then it's likely to do with repairing the damage caused by decades old decisions to lump every gob****e and loola from Limerick City, Limerick County and many from Counties Tipp and Clare into urban nighmare reservations on the fringe of the city ...owing to it's geographical location which helps create the massaged stats I referred to earlier.
Incidently we had a perfectly good tram in Limerick once upon a time and some moron took the time and trouble to rip the entire thing out.
There was actually a Tram in Galway too, not sure how long it's gone but I've came across it in old pictures they put in the local papers at times.....
Why were these ripped up??:confused:
Why were these ripped up??:confused:
People started to buy cars & it was seen as the way forward at the time.
In the 1800s we had trains everywhere as they were an attractive option to the horse & cart for long distances.
Newryrep
15/09/2008, 2:50 PM
This looks to my goldfish like attention span 'Oh look at the shiny new trams we will have'
Consultants will spend a fortune doing a feasibility study including trips to Manchester, Nice and somewhere else nice/exotic on the continent. including photo ops with grining councillers
Report will say it is feasible but willl cost X amount
consultants will then be told they only have half of X amount so they need to redo the feasibility study
3 years and 20 million euro down the line it will be quietly shelved but resurrected every election time.
As was implied it is the Simpsons monorail episode . (except it will never be built)
Ceirtlis
16/09/2008, 12:14 AM
They have a major problem to start of with if they think they are going to get anything near 2.50 a journey. My main thought about it is where are the lines going to go. I cant think of anywhere to put the lines out to the east side of the city, the options would be Bohermore, Lough Atalia, College Road, Headford Road. I cant see where you are going to get a line in there. I dont think it is feasible myself but I would have probably said that before the luas was built. But then again Dublins has a population of about 12 or 13 Galways.
Galways population is smaller than Limerick and less than half that of Waterford.
I cant think of anywhere to put the lines out to the east side of the city, the options would be Bohermore, Lough Atalia, College Road, Headford Road. I cant see where you are going to get a line in there.
I don't know Galway at all but for light rail I feel you need to go through population centres for the entire line as it has many stops. It is not like a regular train hoping from town to town.
brianw82
21/09/2008, 10:07 AM
People seem to be forgetting that home buyers and renters will snap up any and all properties around the GLUAS, increasing the passenger numbers. Any developments near the green line are very valuable.
I'm assuming that it'll go through Eyre Square, but the businesses there are just after coming through years of works, so it's unfortunate that they will (possibly, if it gets built) have to put up with more.
NeilMcD
21/09/2008, 11:24 AM
I do not like this trend with all public transport projects that they must be profitable by themselves. The benefits of public transport far outweigh the direct benefits as there are loads of knock on benefits, as in getting goods around the country or around a city in more time and making other business more profitable.
I think we need to think outside the box on these things and the cost benefit analysis should look beyond the immediate benefits and costs.
I would not mind my taxes going towards better public transport a la the French and Scandanavian models. For too long in this country we are stuck with Thatcher type ideology and look at the state of their public transport system.
The panacea of the right seems to be privatise everything and as we have seen of late what do they do, they privatise profit and nationalise losses.
NeilMcD
21/09/2008, 11:25 AM
There was actually a Tram in Galway too, not sure how long it's gone but I've came across it in old pictures they put in the local papers at times.....
Why were these ripped up??:confused:
Simple oil prices were low and the car was seen as the way forward. Now there is no point in slagging those at the time as hindsight is 20/20 vision.
If you want greater state funding of public transport it will require tax increases. Can't see any mainstream party going to the electorate with that policy.
NeilMcD
22/09/2008, 7:50 AM
That is not true, when Ireland decreased their tax rate both corporate and for paye they increased their tax rate. Its a simplified version to think that the only way to increase revenue is to increase the tax rate.
Partizan
22/09/2008, 8:44 AM
I have seen the Gluas plans and its looks impressive, however having worked in a public sector body dealing with capital projects, a Cost Benefit Analysis must be carried out by law as stipulated by the Department of Finance. I work in the education sector and I can tell you the amount of paper work that we have to go through when building new faculties, buildings etc. so the same must be through when dealing with other capital projects in the other departments.
Gluas is well thought out, however the population in Galway is not there to support it, end of. There is no point in building brand spanking new trams and tram lines when the numbers will not be there to make it feasable. If anything Cork which is far bigger than Galway and badly needs a light rail system. Public transport in Cork, from my own experience is horrendous.
For Galway, you could build a line (light rail) to Salthill only and reopen the WRC as far as Tuam. That would be more than sufficient.
Cork: Middleton line been reopened and new stations added from Mallow. Tram line is feasable. More buses and bus lanes need to be provided.
Limerick: Well served. Has a commuter service in place from Nenagh & Ennis. The WRC opens next year with intermediate station at Sixmilebridge. There has been talk of opening the Foynes line as far as Askeaton.
If anything the Navan, Interconnector and Metro North should be given the biggest priority over any Gluas. Its parish pump politics at its worst.
eamo1
22/09/2008, 12:40 PM
Well Galway has brutal traffic problems and with no sign of the By-Pass being built in the next 4/5 years its only going to get alot worse.Also the streets arent wide enough for more bus lanes etc,so the only other alternative IS a light rail system.It happens to be a great alternative.If this isnt built then my dissapointment with government and management in this country will have peaked but unlike the rest of the country im not going to accept it.Galway is choking and nobody cares.The apathy in this country is unreal,we tolerate and let go so many things wrong with officals.
I read somewhere that one line would be going from oranmore to knocknacarra/barna and the other would be going from moycullen to ballybrit. Both lines would be going through the city centre where you could hop from one to the other if need be. All major suburbs would be covered with the trams going by all main buildings i.e. colleges, hospitals, industrial sites, shopping centres etc....
eamo1 the planning permission for the bypass of Galway city hasnt been passed yet due to a few issues from farmers who's land it would go through. They hope for it to be passed by the end of the year but construction for such a major project i.e. a second bridge over the corrib etc.. would take a minimum of 10 years to finish some are saying!!!
eamo1
22/09/2008, 11:09 PM
I know one of those "farmers" is taking it all the way to the european courts if need be,4/5 years was the optimistic earliest start i could see for the bridge etc.GLUAS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION!
brianw82
25/09/2008, 7:15 PM
Is there a proposed route map of this anywhere online?
http://gluas.com/uploads/images/possibleroutes.png
Bald Student
25/09/2008, 9:10 PM
I'm no expert but would Galway be better off building a single Luas and concentrating development along it?
From that map the Orange line duplicates with the train line for a large section. Can't see how Galway population can justify. Little chance it could cover day to day costs out of fares so would have to be subsidised by taxes.
eamo1
26/09/2008, 12:24 AM
The Red and Green lines are badly needed.As i said,the streets and roads wont fit bus corridors,taxis are wayyyyyyy too expensive and the by-pass wont be built for another 5 years minimum.So the ONLY alternative is this GLUAS,they dont and wont even have to be fancy trams etc IMO.If they just get me from GMIT to the city centre and the Terryland area where i live to the city centre in less then 10 mins then its darn good.And the politicians do what they do best by covering their ar*es by only saying they agree to it "in principle".They have no ambition IMO and are the worst council the city has had in many years.
Lionel Ritchie
26/09/2008, 8:56 AM
What space folding trick do you expect these trams can pull off that a bus can't? I can't see the exact route on that map but you're still going to have to shut down any number of Galways streets any time there's one of them coming down it.
perhaps we could re-evaluate zepplins?
brianw82
26/09/2008, 11:57 AM
I don't think people here realise just how car-centric this country is. Every street of every town is choked with cars because there either is no other option, or people just won't use it.
One thing is for sure, and that's the fact that the current level of car use is unsustainable. We need to start thinking with the motto 'build it, and they will come' rather than 'oh, there isn't the population for it'
I'd much rather be paying taxes to subsidise the gluas, rather than buying carbon credits from a corrupt government in Africa, that's for sure.
Ceirtlis
26/09/2008, 12:16 PM
The Red and Green lines are badly needed.As i said,the streets and roads wont fit bus corridors,taxis are wayyyyyyy too expensive and the by-pass wont be built for another 5 years minimum.So the ONLY alternative is this GLUAS,they dont and wont even have to be fancy trams etc IMO.If they just get me from GMIT to the city centre and the Terryland area where i live to the city centre in less then 10 mins then its darn good.And the politicians do what they do best by covering their ar*es by only saying they agree to it "in principle".They have no ambition IMO and are the worst council the city has had in many years.
Where do you see the tracks going though Eamo, for example on the Dublin Road out to the GMIT, or from the Galway Shopping Centre on into town.
I don't think people here realise just how car-centric this country is.
I think everyone does, but that's a result of poor and often corrupt planning (that continues). A GLUAS or a SLUAS for the Sligwegians won't solve the issue if the population density isn't there for the light rail. Perhaps GLUAS would be viable if it came as part of an overall solution, but at the moment it doesn't appear to make sense as a stand alone project to me.
Paddyfield
27/09/2008, 8:39 PM
Galways population is smaller than Limerick and less than half that of Waterford.
The 2006 popultion of Galway city is 72,000. Limerick is 52,000 and Waterford is 45,000 according to Central Statistics Office
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htm
Schumi
27/09/2008, 8:56 PM
The 2006 popultion of Galway city is 72,000. Limerick is 52,000 and Waterford is 45,000 according to Central Statistics Office
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popofeachprovcountycity2006.htmThat Limerick figure is misleading as a lot of suburbs are counted as Limerick County rather than Limerick City as the boundaries haven't been updated. I don't know if there are similar issues with Galway or Waterford.
well the gluas would also be taken in large populated ares that arent included in paddyfields figure of 72,000 like oranmore/maree, barna etc.. I would guess that in total the gluas would be covering a populated area of 95-98,000 people.
well the gluas would also be taken in large populated ares that arent included in paddyfields figure of 72,000 like oranmore/maree, barna etc.. I would guess that in total the gluas would be covering a populated area of 95-98,000 people.
The Gluas would not cover the entire population of Galway only those people living alongside its line or in close to it.
Lionel Ritchie
29/09/2008, 8:37 AM
That Limerick figure is misleading as a lot of suburbs are counted as Limerick County rather than Limerick City as the boundaries haven't been updated. I don't know if there are similar issues with Galway or Waterford.
There probably are similar issues with Waterford as a considerable chunk of it's urban population apparently live in county Kilkenny. This owing to, in common with Limerick, the city being right up against the county boundary.
Galway on the other hand, in common with Cork and Dublin, has it's urban center pretty much as far away from any other county or administrative boundary as possible.
Perhaps we could move Limerick a few miles to the north east. We'll take that whole south east Clare bit who's inhabitants daily choke our roads with their towbar-less jeeps and choke our air with their ...flasks of sweet tea and corned beef sandwiches. Meanwhile out in the desolate windswept west we can have a deeply moving ceremony where we hand the likes of Bruff and Glin over to Kerry to do with as Kerry sees fit. :cool:
There probably are similar issues with Waterford as a considerable chunk of it's urban population apparently live in county Kilkenny. This owing to, in common with Limerick, the city being right up against the county boundary.
None of that matters really as light rail only serves the population that lives close to it. This means you need population density along its line.
I don't use the Luas but it appears the Stephens Green line does a lot better as this goes through residential & office buildings the entire length & doesn't share the road with cars much. The other line does up the Naas road for a part of it with commercial parks on either side & very few passengers in that area.
tricky_colour
29/09/2008, 7:20 PM
What the difference between a tram and a bus?
It does not cost you a million pounds for a bus to go don a different route!!
Is a tram greener? No Electricity cost 4 times the amount of petrol/diesel.
There are losses converting mechanical into electrical and then again coverting it back into mechanical. It costs a fortune to install and if don't live on the line you are fooked.
What can a tram do that a bus can't? - Nothing. And a bus is a fraction of the cost
and can go on any route.
What the difference between a tram and a bus?
Tram makes for nicer photo opportunity.
In theory electricity could be greener but then again almost all ours comes from fossil fuels.
The most efficient system I have heard about is dedicated bus routes in Curitiba, Brazil (http://www.urbanhabitat.org/node/344) which is basically like a light rail system only using buses instead of trams. Aside from the fact they not glamorous for politicians the only problem with buses is they share the road. Would be huge savings as no need for rails or cables.
It is a lot easier to get people to leave their cars for trains and trams than it is for buses. Double or treble the number of buses, reduce waiting times and have more routes (and more direct routes) and I think people would switch. It would still take a massive investment though.
tricky_colour
30/09/2008, 11:06 PM
It is a lot easier to get people to leave their cars for trains and trams than it is for buses. Double or treble the number of buses, reduce waiting times and have more routes (and more direct routes) and I think people would switch. It would still take a massive investment though.
Well where I am it is more expensive to get a bus. on some journeys it works out at over a £1 a mile, so unless your car does 5 miles to the gallon you won't be switching to the bus, and for a fully loaded car you would have to
do less than 1 mile a gallon (I always wanted a challaneger tank!!).
So the idea people will switch to public transport is a joke.
These tram schemes are just a corruption vehicle whereby tax payers money is tranfered to corrupt operators with the air of corrupt politicians and officials with lots of brown envelopes flying around.
The only reason they only do one or two routes, when in reality a typical city has upto, or over 100 bus routes, is because people would begin to smell a rat when the tram system was using 90% of the countries GDP.
The cost of tram systems typically causes a credit crunch and a run on the banks as has been proven. :D
Well where I am it is more expensive to get a bus. on some journeys it works out at over a £1 a mile, so unless your car does 5 miles to the gallon you won't be switching to the bus, and for a fully loaded car you would have to
do less than 1 mile a gallon (I always wanted a challaneger tank!!).
So the idea people will switch to public transport is a joke.
The manner of Irish taxation on motoring will always encourage people to use their car once they have one. Taxes such as VRT and Motor Tax are the same no matter if you drive 10 miles or 1000 miles a week.
Torn-Ado
01/10/2008, 5:55 PM
Gluas! FFS!
This must be some sort of p!sstake.
pineapple stu
01/10/2008, 6:16 PM
That Limerick figure is misleading as a lot of suburbs are counted as Limerick County rather than Limerick City as the boundaries haven't been updated. I don't know if there are similar issues with Galway or Waterford.
I'd imagine there are with Waterford but not Galway. Waterford and Limerick have separate car registration marks for city and county (L/LK and W/WD respectively), whereas Galway only has G. I'd imagine it ties in with your point, which is where I'm getting my conclusion. Not the most scientific, but hey.
KevB76
03/10/2008, 4:09 PM
Perhaps we could move Limerick a few miles to the north east. We'll take that whole south east Clare bit who's inhabitants daily choke our roads with their towbar-less jeeps and choke our air with their ...flasks of sweet tea and corned beef sandwiches. Meanwhile out in the desolate windswept west we can have a deeply moving ceremony where we hand the likes of Bruff and Glin over to Kerry to do with as Kerry sees fit. :cool:
Outrageous :mad:
Leave Bruff alone, it is NOT one of those west county towns, its practically a suburb of Limerick city. No offence to Kerry, but NO! :mad:
I don't use the Luas but it appears the Stephens Green line does a lot better as this goes through residential & office buildings the entire length & doesn't share the road with cars much. The other line does up the Naas road for a part of it with commercial parks on either side & very few passengers in that area.
Wow, you really don't know Dublin do you? The stops on the Naas Road are Bluebell (obviously enough close to Bluebell and Drimnagh), Kylemore (which serves ballyfermot) and Red Cow (which serves Clondalkin). Do you honestly think these aren't huge population centres?
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