Defensive problems [Archive]

colster

19/09/2003, 10:38 AM

Thats terrible news. Breen is a massive loss.
I don't think the guy is given the credit that his performances for ireland over the last year deserve.
He's in great form for Sunderland at the moment.
The posts on their MB have nothinng but praise for him and they are crediting his signing and displays as the reason for the turn around in their results.

If Breen is gone I would prefer to play Dunne with O'Shea but Dunne is not playing for City so I think O'Brien might just edge him.

NigeSausagepump

19/09/2003, 12:35 PM

When has Breen ever let us down?

Try the home qualifier against Iran - twice skinned by Ali Daei, with Shay Given saving his ass on both occasions. Have a look at the away game against Russia and the home game against Switzerland and try to tell me he didn't let us down in either of them.

I agree on balance that he has done more good than bad in a green shirt, but I don't understand why people peddle this "Breen has never let us down" line. He clearly has.

Bluebeard

19/09/2003, 12:36 PM

Breen is a collosal loss. Without him we do not have much experience at the centre of defence - with due respect to John O'Shea, I would rate international experience is a different kettle of fish to Champions league.

I reckon it will have to be Carr and Finnan at full back and at the centre O'Shea and the Honey Monster
(our most expeienced uninjured centre backs - a scarey thought). But I reckon that HM can't start without some kind of match practice, and I certainly don't think that Andy O'Brien is ready for a major pressure cooker of a game like this yet.

I am intrigued at the thought that Doc could play centre. What was his club form like at the back lately. I heard he prefers to play there, and he would have some kind of playing experience alongside Steve Carr.

colster

19/09/2003, 1:40 PM

Originally posted by NigeSausagepump
When has Breen ever let us down?

Try the home qualifier against Iran - twice skinned by Ali Daei, with Shay Given saving his ass on both occasions. Have a look at the away game against Russia and the home game against Switzerland and try to tell me he didn't let us down in either of them.

I agree on balance that he has done more good than bad in a green shirt, but I don't understand why people peddle this "Breen has never let us down" line. He clearly has.

No-one is saying that he's never made a mistake. Everyone has had a bad game or made a mistake in a game.
What most people defending Breen take umbrage with is that his performances of late have been very good. but still Irish fans bleat on about him being prone to lapses in concentration with not much evidence to prove their assessment.

He is still a major loss for us. It means playing a very inexperience partnership in central defence.
The most experienced optiona is Dunne and O'Shea.
Dunne hasn't played at all this season and O'Shea has played much at centre half.
O'Brien is also very inexperienced and is not in good form for Newcastle.

So taking into account Breens loss is massive.

liamon

19/09/2003, 1:57 PM

Originally posted by colster
.....

So taking into account Breens loss is massive.

Massive loss all right. If HM is to play then he'll have to start getting games at club level. Only problem is he plays for a massive club, with massive competition for places....

brine2

19/09/2003, 4:39 PM

How are Paul McGrath's knees these days?

Estar

19/09/2003, 4:59 PM

Hope he dosn't play doc at the back and bring in the

http://www.simongeary.tv/images/angryant.gif

No need to cut off your nose to spite your face.

carnstein

19/09/2003, 5:17 PM

Condex

19/09/2003, 7:52 PM

****ing hell, some of the responses to this thread have been laughable. "Breen is a massive loss" hahahaha. Dear god you must not have a clue about football. It looks like our strongest defence (Carr-O'Shea-O'Brien-Finnan) will be picked by fluke. If we win then everybody will say how great Kerr was for doing so well with limited resorces!
*************************************************

Have to agree totally, although Breen tries his hardest against top level strikers he can be exposed.

There is a reason why he hardly played last season and didn't have many clubs after him when he was released from West Ham.
Reason being is that most managers don't rate him. There is a huge gulf between Premier and 1st Division.

(Carr-O'Shea-O'Brien-Finnan)

I'll go with this though I find O'Brien dodgy at times as well and O'Shea would need to get some weight on.

tricky_colour

20/09/2003, 12:57 AM

I think you just have to play whoever is doing well for their
club and who is fully fit. There must be 10+ contenders for the back four, John Thompson has been doing well for Nottm Forest
recently.

colster

20/09/2003, 8:58 AM

Originally posted by carnstein
****ing hell, some of the responses to this thread have been laughable. "Breen is a massive loss" hahahaha. Dear god you must not have a clue about football. It looks like our strongest defence (Carr-O'Shea-O'Brien-Finnan) will be picked by fluke. If we win then everybody will say how great Kerr was for doing so well with limited resorces!

carstein all knowing football expert that you are. Are you honestly saying that playing a back 4 that have never played together is not a risk.
We have one centre half who has never played a competitive game for Ireland and is in dire form for his club(Newcastle are leaking goals all over the place).
We have another who is playing fullback for the last season or so and has only played a handful of games at centre half. When he did play centre half for Utd in CL against a Swiss he had to be replaced by the 'superb' Silvestre. And he has never played centre half for Ireland in a competitive game.
The only experienced centre half we have hasn't played for his club all season.
Next we have 2 options for left full. One hasn't played there very often and the other hasn't played many games all season.

Now we've lost 2 centre halfs with approx 100 caps between them and who are in great form for their clubs.
We have no-one available that have been pushing these 2 for their places.
So when we lose the 2 of them for a make or break game then you reckon it's not a massive loss.

Give me a break. It's you who hasn't a clue about football!!!

Estar

20/09/2003, 9:24 AM

to be honest , Ireland never really has a problem at the back, apart from a hammering we took from a great Danish side before Big Jack arrived.

We have a big problem centre midfield. Even the players from down under, made us look like muppets in that department.

NigeSausagepump

20/09/2003, 12:39 PM

Looks like much ado about nothing.
Breen's agent said yesterday that he'll be fit for the Switzerland game. Assuming he's correct, now the question is who do we play alongside him? My money would have to be on Dunne. I'd prefer to see O'Shea there, but would hate to see Harte coming in at left back to accomodate the switch.

carnstein

20/09/2003, 1:07 PM

Originally posted by colster
We have one centre half who has never played a competitive game for Ireland and is in dire form for his club(Newcastle are leaking goals all over the place).
We have another who is playing fullback for the last season or so and has only played a handful of games at centre half. When he did play centre half for Utd in CL against a Swiss he had to be replaced by the 'superb' Silvestre. And he has never played centre half for Ireland in a competitive game.

Give me a break. It's you who hasn't a clue about football!!!
I cannot believe ANYONE would doubt O'Shea's ability to play at centre back for Ireland. Ireland V Switzerland is a massive step down for O'Shea, compared to the teams he has been facing with United. He had an outstanding pre-season at centre back and has been doing well there lately.

O'Brien hasn't been brilliant for Newcastle of late, but neither has anyone else. If you doubt his ability at the highest level, take a look at Newcastle's away game to PSV in the CL last year. There is no way Breen should be ahead of him in the pecking order.

Our best team is made up of our best players. Breen is not one of our best players, he is an extremly poor player. If I was Kerr I would have frozen him out, along with the likes of Carsley and Kinsella, the minute I took charge and given some youngsters like O'Shea, O'Brien, Partrige and so on the chance to show what they can do, because at the end of the day, it should be blatently obvious to EVERYONE that players like Breen and not good enough to qualify for and ultimatly win major championships, wouldn't you agree?

Condex

20/09/2003, 1:48 PM

O'Brien dropped by Newcastle today.

Estar

20/09/2003, 2:00 PM

Originally posted by Condex
O'Brien dropped by Newcastle today.

Not as big an issue as it looks.

I would like too see O'Shea, the honey monster and O'Brein play together just for thier danger for Ireland from set plays.

Were not going their for a 0-0, we going their to win:D

Slash/ED

20/09/2003, 10:23 PM

I think our strongest defence is Finnan Cunningham O'shea and Carr. How anyone can talk about their strongest defence and leave out Cunningham is completley beyond me.

Since Cunningham is out, Breens fitness is huge. Richard Dunne, lets face it, is a plank. And a plank who wont be match fit (Or any other kind of fit) by the time we play Switzerland. He does alright against long ball to the tall striker sides, but Switzerland are a quick passing side with two nippy forwards. They'll embarass him. O'Brien deserves more of a chance but the Switzerland match wouldn't be the ideal place to give him it, however if Breens out he'd be the one I'd put in there.

The full backs then, in my opinion, pick themselves. Playing Finnan out of position is a far lesser risk then playing Ian Harte anywhere.

I never thought I'd worry about the fitness of Gary Breen so much though mind you :)

colster

22/09/2003, 9:54 AM

Originally posted by carnstein
I cannot believe ANYONE would doubt O'Shea's ability to play at centre back for Ireland. Ireland V Switzerland is a massive step down for O'Shea, compared to the teams he has been facing with United. He had an outstanding pre-season at centre back and has been doing well there lately.

O'Brien hasn't been brilliant for Newcastle of late, but neither has anyone else. If you doubt his ability at the highest level, take a look at Newcastle's away game to PSV in the CL last year. There is no way Breen should be ahead of him in the pecking order.

Our best team is made up of our best players. Breen is not one of our best players, he is an extremly poor player. If I was Kerr I would have frozen him out, along with the likes of Carsley and Kinsella, the minute I took charge and given some youngsters like O'Shea, O'Brien, Partrige and so on the chance to show what they can do, because at the end of the day, it should be blatently obvious to EVERYONE that players like Breen and not good enough to qualify for and ultimatly win major championships, wouldn't you agree?

If you want to trade performances how about Breen's performances in the World Cup. Raul and Morientes didn't destroy him did they?
Or are they 'extremely bad' as well. Or how about the likes of Kluivert, Hasselbaink or Van Nistelrooy. Was he destroyed by them either?
Or again are they extremely bad?

I think a lot of Irish fans are biased against Breen. He's had one or two shakey performances but they were quite a long time ago. The fact that he is putting in good performances now is never acknowledged by some fans.

You're just speculating that O'Brien will be better than Breen. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he will be.

Anyway the probability is that O'Brien will play alongside Breen against the Swiss.
If that's the case I know which one of those 2 I'd be worried about.

carnstein

22/09/2003, 3:18 PM

Originally posted by colster
Raul and Morientes didn't destroy him did they?
Or are they 'extremely bad' as well. Or how about the likes of Kluivert, Hasselbaink or Van Nistelrooy. Was he destroyed by them either?

Was he destroyed by Van Nistlerooy? Well, the only time I can ever recall him having faced Van Nistlerooy, unless I am very much mistaken, was last season at Old Trafford when West Ham lost 6-1. And again, unless I am very much mistaken, he was absolutly ripped to shreds and was almost single handedly responsible for each of the 6 goals.

Thats the thing with Breen, he will look fine while playing average teams like the Swiss and the Russians in our international side, but put him under pressure, real pressure and he will collapse like a tonne of bricks suspened between 2 skyscrapers by a Sunday newspaper.

There is a reason Sunderland were the only team to come in for him at the end of last season, what explaination would you put forward for this colster? Do you think if John O'Shea's contract expired, only Sunderland would be after him?

colster

22/09/2003, 4:02 PM

Originally posted by carnstein
Was he destroyed by Van Nistlerooy? Well, the only time I can ever recall him having faced Van Nistlerooy, unless I am very much mistaken, was last season at Old Trafford when West Ham lost 6-1. And again, unless I am very much mistaken, he was absolutly ripped to shreds and was almost single handedly responsible for each of the 6 goals.

Thats the thing with Breen, he will look fine while playing average teams like the Swiss and the Russians in our international side, but put him under pressure, real pressure and he will collapse like a tonne of bricks suspened between 2 skyscrapers by a Sunday newspaper.

There is a reason Sunderland were the only team to come in for him at the end of last season, what explaination would you put forward for this colster? Do you think if John O'Shea's contract expired, only Sunderland would be after him?

Breen played against RVN in the WC qualifier in Landsdowne.
He may have been destroyed when he played for West Ham but he had a brutal manager and brutal side.
Who played in centre of defence for Newcastle when Utd knocked 6 past them last season?
How do you know that only Sunderland came in for Breen.

OK Breen isn't a Canavaro or Nesta but neither are O'Shea or O'Brien. What Breen is though is a decent experienced defender and with Cunnigham missing it is imperative that we have some experience in central defence.

It would be extremely risky to play O'Shea and O'Brien for such a vital game.

NigeSausagepump

22/09/2003, 4:16 PM

Originally posted by carnstein

Thats the thing with Breen, he will look fine while playing average teams like the Swiss and the Russians in our international side

I beg to differ. He was appaling against both of these teams in the first two games of the group. I'm not denying that many other players were too - but just look at his positional sense for the second Swiss goal. Stomach-churning.

IMHO he is the best bet for a starting slot next month - but he can be as prone to mind-lapses as O'Brien and O'Shea and I for one am not hugely looking forward to him being the senior partner in the centre of defence.

Slash/ED

22/09/2003, 4:37 PM

Originally posted by colster
OK Breen isn't a Canavaro or Nesta but neither are O'Shea or O'Brien.

What are you talking about? O'shea has the potential to be world class, obviously he's not there yet but he's still young, to dismiss him is complete rubbish, he has the potential to be a top top player.

colster

22/09/2003, 8:40 PM

Originally posted by Slash/ED
What are you talking about? O'shea has the potential to be world class, obviously he's not there yet but he's still young, to dismiss him is complete rubbish, he has the potential to be a top top player.

Look O'Shea has potential and maybe he'll be a top player but I think it would be a mistake to play him alongside O'Brien in such an important game.
It would be absolutely devastating to both of them if they leaked a couple of goals and cost the team a chance to make it to Portugal.
I would have no problem playing O'Shea or O'Brien beside Cunningham or Breen. You need someone with experience to show these lads the ropes in international terms.

Slash/ED

22/09/2003, 9:17 PM

I agree with you there, it's just the way you seemed to dismiss O'Shea seemed bizarre to me, his ability and potential is there for all to see.

brine2

22/09/2003, 9:56 PM

Breen played against RVN in the WC qualifier in Landsdowne.

Our back four was Harte - Stan - Honeymonster - Kelly. God knows how they managed to keep a clean sheet.

Remember Gary Breen against Goran Straveski? Cost us a place at Euro 2000.

carnstein

23/09/2003, 9:31 AM

Originally posted by colster
Breen played against RVN in the WC qualifier in Landsdowne.

OK Breen isn't a Canavaro or Nesta but neither are O'Shea or O'Brien. What Breen is though is a decent experienced defender and with Cunnigham missing it is imperative that we have some experience in central defence.

Wrong, Dunne and Stan were our centre backs for that game, so the one time Breen did face Van Nistlerooy, he was destroyed, not two ways about it.

O'Shea is the best young defender in Europe at the moment and in years to come he will be right up there with Nesta and Canavaro, oh, but he is no Gary Breen of course :rolleyes: .

colster

23/09/2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by carnstein
Wrong, Dunne and Stan were our centre backs for that game, so the one time Breen did face Van Nistlerooy, he was destroyed, not two ways about it.

O'Shea is the best young defender in Europe at the moment and in years to come he will be right up there with Nesta and Canavaro, oh, but he is no Gary Breen of course :rolleyes: .

OK he didn't play against him at Landsdowne but he has played against the likes of Kluivert, Figo, Raul etc and performed quite well.
O'Shea may be the best young defender in Europe but most if not all of his games have been at fullback.
The fact of the matter is that if Breen were dropped for this game in favour of O'Brien and O'Shea it would be a massive risk and the sort of tinkering and wild team selections and formations that McCarthy has been accused of (Remember Kennedy playing behind the front 2).
Another fact is that Breen deserves to play in this game. He has played quite well in the last few games and deserves to keep his place.
Apart from the 1st two games of this campaign he hasn't put a foot wrong.

Condex

23/09/2003, 4:43 PM

Its funny that the first two games were against the best two sides in the group.

I'd play himself against the Swiss but he is not a good player(but hes the best we have)

carnstein

23/09/2003, 6:19 PM

Originally posted by Condex

I'd play himself against the Swiss but he is not a good player(but hes the best we have)
I'd consider O'Brien a better player than Breen.

brine2

23/09/2003, 8:04 PM

O'Brien doesn't seem to be suited to the 100 miles an hour of the Premiership. I saw him at St. James Park against Juventus and he was pure class. Marshalled the defence and read everything Del Piero, Davids and Nedved could throw at him.

A face

23/09/2003, 10:06 PM

Please for the love of god dont let Harte play anymore !!

The cringe factor is just all too much at times !!

NigeSausagepump

24/09/2003, 7:53 AM

Originally posted by A face
Please for the love of god dont let Harte play anymore !!

The cringe factor is just all too much at times !!

Bang on.

Kerr should do absolutely whatever it takes to ensure Harte isn't in the team, even if it means calling the Pope out of retirement.

Cue inevitable "Harte has never let Ireland down" retorts :D

macdermesser

24/09/2003, 10:30 AM

yep .. even the swiss manager is trying it on with comparing Harte to Roberto Carlos. I think Kerr will pick O Shea on the left and Breen and A.N. Other in the centre. Bit of a cliche .. but O'Shea needs around 15 caps to get used to playing for Ireland .. and centre half is a position where we need experience.

carnstein

24/09/2003, 1:24 PM

Originally posted by A face
Please for the love of god dont let Harte play anymore !!

The cringe factor is just all too much at times !!
I can't believe no one has thought of converting Harte to a left midfielder. He is aweful defencivly, but his passing is excellent and he posseses a lot of skill as well as being a very good goalscorer.

Kilbane on the other hand is the opposite, he is great going back but terrible going forward, if Harte and Kilbane swapped posistions, 2 bad players would become 2 good players.

colster

24/09/2003, 2:48 PM

Originally posted by carnstein
I can't believe no one has thought of converting Harte to a left midfielder. He is aweful defencivly, but his passing is excellent and he posseses a lot of skill as well as being a very good goalscorer.

Kilbane on the other hand is the opposite, he is great going back but terrible going forward, if Harte and Kilbane swapped posistions, 2 bad players would become 2 good players.

Harte hasn't got any pace so his effect on the wing wouldn't be too great. He'd never be able to go by players something that Kilbane can do to a limited degree. Maybe he could be a left sided Beckham??

I don't know about Kilbane as a left back. He's a great work rate and tracks back but whether he would have the ability to deal with a nippy winger on his own is debatable.

Anyway the only positions that Kilbane and Harte should be converted to are that of substitute.

macdermesser

24/09/2003, 3:12 PM

I think Leeds would have used him as winger by now if he was up to it. I don't think he's much worse than Ashley Cole though .. who is being found at last. Harte is too lightweight for midfield .. either Kerr is always going to play Kilbane there .. or he'll play three centre midfield players with Duff in the hole behind the two strikers.. going on what he's picked up to now.

carnstein

25/09/2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by colster
Harte hasn't got any pace so his effect on the wing wouldn't be too great. He'd never be able to go by players something that Kilbane can do to a limited degree. Maybe he could be a left sided Beckham??

I don't know about Kilbane as a left back. He's a great work rate and tracks back but whether he would have the ability to deal with a nippy winger on his own is debatable.

Anyway the only positions that Kilbane and Harte should be converted to are that of substitute.
Harte wouldn't need to be quick to play on the wing, he has the ability to cross from deep, like you said a left footed Beckham.

Kilbane's ability to deal with a tricky winger would certainly be greater than Harte's.

I'm not saying Kilbane and Harte should be on the team, they really shouldn't, but I have no doubt that each player would perform better if they swapped posistions.

And Macdermesser, Harte too lightweight for midfield? Where the hell did you get that out of, if he is too lightweight for midfield, he is certainly too lightweight for defence, and what about the likes of Duff or Ronaldo, they are certainly more lightweight than Harte.

brine2

25/09/2003, 10:34 PM

I don't know about Kilbane as a left back. He's a great work rate and tracks back but whether he would have the ability to deal with a nippy winger on his own is debatable.

Well if there's one thing Kevin Kilbane excels at then it's not being able to lose his marker. Perhaps if he could achieve this defensively he might become the new Paolo Maldini... :D

macdermesser

26/09/2003, 6:18 AM

And Macdermesser, Harte too lightweight for midfield? Where the hell did you get that out of, if he is too lightweight for midfield, he is certainly too lightweight for defence, and what about the likes of Duff or Ronaldo, they are certainly more lightweight than Harte.

I didn't get it out of anywhere .. its only opinion from the fan in the ditch like yerself, unless you are Brian Kerr.

I think Harte definitely has a lot of good attributes .. good on the ball, good set piece taker .. but his positional play and his pace let him down .. and he's also quite small, hence the lightweight remark. I still think though, O Shea will keep left back and Kilbane on the left ... with the option to put Duff there if we need to attack. Leeds have a problem with left midfield now that Kewell is gone .. if it's so obvious then why haven't they played Harte there?

With regard to Duff, I think Kerr prefers to play him either up front or in the hole .. and bigger more robust players in midfield.

Ronaldo lightweight?! Is this same guy with the tree trunk legs, and blistering pace?