Anti Social Behaviour

[pete]

I am not expressing a personal opinion I just think rehabilitation is just talk as current prisions only punish. If you going lock someone away for life there is no point wasting time rehabilitating & I am sure some criminaks cannot be reformed.

[MervilleUnited]

i didnt put any arguement in place, Im just saying in a realistic situation, a good aul whipping by the guards or whoever would get you out of trouble, trying to reason with them like the approach over here ( or possibly by what you are getting at, telling them i empathise with you, you don't feel part of the community yadda yadda yadda ) " you have to love them, tough love" means fcuk all when confronted by it/situation, its the typical politician/judge ( those that make the law ) living in his nice house, in his nice estate, not using public transport, completely isolated from reality that comes up with these views/arguments.

I do, though, agree you have to tackle the problem deeper, the quick fix DOESN'T work in the long term, but it sure of hell works in the short term

Sums up the Situation I think! A Whole generation, and its been a couple of Generations at this stage, needs to be turned back, and its not going to happen overnight. And yet the problems are very serious. Just imagine what its like to be a person cowering in your own home, afraid of every noise, because gangs are roaming the streets. The Garda are powerless, the parents are on drugs/drink and are powerless, the the Gangs are getting worse and worse as they are untouchables. Add to the mix Drug Lords explioting them, and Guns, bombs and worse, and its not a pretty sight.

ASBOs, and the like do not work, and are worn as badges of honour. That birch, supervised, looks more attractive the more you read. Wee thug wont wear that with pride!

[BohsPartisan]

Again IT DOESN'T WORK. Nothing works. Prevention is better than cure.

[paul_oshea]

Prevension is better than cure

Don't you mean prevention? My neighbour is a prison guard, he firmly beleives some people are just genetically "bad", I can't fully explain what he means by this as everytime he says it, it still doesnt make sense, but what I think he means is people who are brought up like any other "normal" person, whose sliblings have turned out fine, yet they haven't is who I think he refers too, anyhow his point is that some can't be reformed. actually a lot from what i can make out.

but yes, as a whole if 100 prisoners go into jail and 10 come out reformed that has to be deemed a success. preventing those that got their in the first place is an even bigger success!!!!

[BohsPartisan]

Don't you mean prevention?

Yes I do.

Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

[dahamsta]

paul_oshea, that was obviously a typo, could you take it up a notch please? I'm presuming we're aiming for a level higher than primary school.

[lopez]

Yes I do.

Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

I was going to suggest sterilisation, but that seems to be pointless either.

[paul_oshea]

Your prison gaurd mate is wrong. He proffesses a scientificly unsound opinion. The sibling arguement is actually proof of the opposite because if it were merely a case of "bad genes" then both siblings would be bad.
The human genome project carried out a couple of years back by genetic scientists refutes the idea that there are bad behaviour genes. Genes in any case need to be switched on and off. For example you may be geneticly disposed to heart disease but you can control that by avoiding things that will trigger it off.

hmmm, did you know that they removed brocoli from the stores in the states because they ( scientists )beleived it could be cancerous? ( a little more to it than that ) and they also removed cucumber in france in the 90's for the same reason....did you also know that scientists in america recently came out and said women dress more provocatively when they are ovulating? See where IM going with this? As I am sure you don't beleive everything you read, I would even suggest you beleive very little of what you read, anyhow the point is, first hand experience in many different situations, always gives you the individual a better understanding and reasoning of things - beleive it or not. I am not saying that what he says is correct, it is what I was trying to derive from what he was saying. His main point was that he has seen in many cases ( he is an intelligent man by the way, so I would assume he is capable of coming to conclusions on things like this, without just throwing it out there with little or no back-up factual information ) where individuals, are just "bad", what exactly he means by that I am not sure, so the gene thing could be way off.....

Just to add to it, so it isn't individually biased, its a conclusion many prison guards have come to ( again from what he told me ), based on their first-hand experiences....

That digresses from the main point, but prevention is obviouslly better than cure, I just don't beleive we have found that yet ( the best possible form of prevention )......until then a good few slaps will prevent you or I getting mugged/harrassed/intimidated

BohsPartisan, an interesting point you made earlier about "estate" culture ( I assume you got this from such studies ), back home ( where my parents live ) planning permission for 72 houses on the outside of the rezoned land i.e. out past the 40 mph sign, has gone up, and the neighbours are rejecting on a few grounds, privacy, no adequate public access-ways, no public sewage, no amenities, etc etc but the one that surprised me was Anti-social-behaviour, because of its area outside of the town, away from the shops and other facilities, they are proclaiming that this is a haven for anti-social behaviour for those that will live there. I don't see how this is the case really, but I mentioned hte point of what you were saying about communities or lack there-of within estates when I spoke with my mother and she was saying that was one of their main points of objection, which she said has been used in the past successfully in rejecting planning permission for such sites!

One final point, and I don't know where I am really going with this, but, east fingal council is buying up loads of houses from private firms in my home town in roscommon, ever since the locals have noticed a lot more of these sort of what they would probably call "layabouts", it could stem slightly from the whole ignorant outsider mentality, generally hanging about the town, hanging around the pubs, being very noisey within the estates, hard to live beside as neighbours ( beleived to be selling drugs....i know beleived, rumours, maybe or maybe not ) etc, however these people are getting a new lease of life, if you will, down the country and I think this is a perfect opportunity for them to start afresh, yet it doesnt appear that this is the case, there is decent employment in the local factories but it appears that most would rather live on state benefit........the part that i don't like is simply the idead of those up in dublin who think ah well its not our problem if we turf them down the country, sure what harm can they do there, under the watchful eye of the local gardai...yadda yadda...its simply a case of removing one big problem from one big area, and making it a bigger problem in a smaller area, which is even harder to control....

[Lionel Ritchie]

Pick a fight with Iceland at their place, draft our overflow, pack them off to the arctic circle in flimsy summer uniforms, phone the Icelandics and tell them not to turn up, take the phone off the hook and wait for nightfall.

...and that takes care of that problem.

[Billsthoughts]

Have to say I find some of the stuff I see going on frankly disturbing.
However I agree with Bohs Partisan and Macy. you have to tackle the roots of the problem. If people realise they are the lowest rung of a society that doesnt care about them then why should they care about anyone else? As well as that I think a serious investment of money and resources into all sports at local and underage level would do something to tackle a lot problems we have in this country.

[paul_oshea]

ya boxing has always been big at home, decent club won a few all-irelands, a lot of travellers have been part of the club actually, and others that were in council estates had something to get involved with, it does work to an extent as they can lamp 15 coulours out of their opponents in the ring, however it doesnt stop them on a friday or saturday night from doing what they do......the one thing that seemed to stop that was Ecstacy, on too good a feeling to bother fighting!!

[endabob1]

The short sharp shock is purely a short term solution the long term solution requires much more effort & resources. Unfortunately in our modern society where politicians are only interested in getting re-elected they need/want instant results so we have crap like asbo's being introduced. The long term answer is that people need to have aspirations if at 17 your only aspiration is to get as much out of the welfare state as you can to keep your bird and kid off your back while you go out with your mates for a bit of craic then the system has failed. When teachers, nurses and social workers are paid as poorly as they are is it any wonder that so much of our current society feeld unvalued?

As far as the "bad gene's" argument goes, quite frankly that is complete to$$. I have 2 brothers we are as different in terms of personality as you could imagine but we have almost identical values on what is important in our lives. The reason we have the same values is we grew up in the same house where we were influenced by our parents who instilled the importance of family values. We are now all married and would stand by our respective wives and children through whatever crap comes our way, loads of people will read this and think "so what" but I know lots of blokes who mess their wives around, have walked out on a marriage for what I would call pathetic reasons. Their values are just different than mine, but those values get passed down from your parents, if you have lost a generation which we clearly have it will take 2 or 3 generations to get them back again.

God I sound like Norman Tebbitt

[BohsPartisan]

BohsPartisan, an interesting point you made earlier about "estate" culture ( I assume you got this from such studies ), .

No just from personal experience. I live in an estate on that is miles away from any amenities and is populated by people like myself who only see the place in daylight during the summer months and at weekends. Theres a guy living on my street who takes his kid out to kick ball at 9pm for a few minutes in a vain attempt to spend some time with him. The kids who were 9 and ten when the estate was built are now 14 and 15 and you can see the social problems starting to mount. I also have experience of campaigning on developement issues in North County Dublin and if you've been to Lusk you'll see what I mean. Huge estates, literally in the middle of nowhere with the same infrastructure that was there when it was a rural backwater.