Basque and Catalan national teams?

**Dodge** · 10/10/2006, 7:40 PM

Phil Ball on soccernet

Barcelona's take

Interesting times.

**Lim till i die** · 11/10/2006, 9:45 AM

For two proud and ancient "nations" they sure did a good job of filling the Nou Camp

Catalans really annoy me with their phony nationalism. When it boils down to it they know which side their breads buttered and have never made a serious attempt to secede

It's just peoples republic of Cork syndrome on a larger scale

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 10:04 AM

Some Catalans are very nationalistic, some aren't. Those who are are definitely not phoney. Get a grip man.

And 57,000 is a huge crowd of Catalans as no Basques travelled.

**ccfcman** · 11/10/2006, 10:57 AM

The Basque would be more likely to get one, and a bloody good team too.

By laws of the club, all Athletico Bilbao players must be of Basque origin, they'd maybe pic a few out of the likes of Real Socidad also.

Whereas Barcelon and Espanyol have alot of foreign imports.

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 11:07 AM

Just a correction, there's nothing in the rules of Athletic Bilbao stopping them from playing non Basques. They just don't do it. Sciedad play foreigners but not Spanish folk.

Both have played Spanish and foreigners in the past (note all histories day they don't play non basques in the "modern era")

In terms of legal structures, both regions are fairly level in that regard (Catalans got a whole heap of new powers last year and inclued in that was the word "nation" in their official documents.

Its way, way more comlicated than purely football and I won't pretend to know that much about it either

**Lim till i die** · 11/10/2006, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Some Catalans are very nationalistic, some aren't. Those who are are definitely not phoney. Get a grip man.

And 57,000 is a huge crowd of Catalans as no Basques travelled.

How come the Nou Camp can be full for Barcelona games but not for the "national" side

I realise tourists and the like play their part but surely not to such a large extent, plus whos to say there wasn't a lot of tourists at that game

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 11:18 AM

No tourists at it because it wasn't advertised heavily (read the Phil Ball article). Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

**Lim till i die** · 11/10/2006, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

No tourists at it because it wasn't advertised heavily (read the Phil Ball article). Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all (Or indeed this thread)

I don't think you'll change my mind on Catalans, they're not refered to as the Jews of Spain for nothing (if thats offensive to anyone I'll cheerfuly withdraw) Basically from what I have read on them they wave around the nationalist card to gain concessions from Madrid without ever having a notion of actually doing anything about it as they have it so good within Spain

BTW I will concede my anti-Catalan bias stems solely from reading a few articles ages ago and the book "Morbo", if I'm wrong I'm more than willing to learn

**el punter** · 11/10/2006, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

BTW I will concede my anti-Catalan bias stems solely from reading a few articles ages ago and the book "Morbo", if I'm wrong I'm more than willing to learn

Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance

**Lim till i die** · 11/10/2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by el punter

Read Jimmy Burns book 'Barca' for a little balance

Is that not hugely pro-Catalan though??

**el punter** · 11/10/2006, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Is that not hugely pro-Catalan though??

Somewhere between the Madrid propaganda of 'White Storm' and the 'Barca' propaganda lies room for you to draw your own conclusions.

I don't think the Catalonia nationalism is phoney at all, on the contrary Spanish nationalism is somewhat of an oxymoron.

On a related point, Gibraltar are also trying to establish an international football identity...here

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

In all fairness Dodge it was far more symbolic than a mere "international friendly" if that was all it was than why bother having the article at all (Or indeed this thread)

Well ball probably wrote about it because he had nothing else to write about. I posted it here because I'm interested in it. There are obviously catalans who go between both of them but fair play to you making your second mass generalisation to annoy me in two days...

If Barca get 80K at a game, I think its fairly safe to assume that at least 30k of them will either be tourists or Spanish. Just because Barca is a symbol of Catalunya doesn't mean that all their supporters are nationalists.

**drinkfeckarse** · 11/10/2006, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Plus it was an "international friendly", if you think 57,000 is a poor crowd for one of them you haven't watched football for long. Oh and up to 2 years ago, average Barca crowds were about 60,000, so its not too far off that

To be fair on that score Dodge, it's hardly going to be competitive international. All games between the 2 would surely be classed international friendlies wouldn't they?

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 12:44 PM

Yep, was just saying that the casual football fan (i.e. those not interested in the nationalistic angle) wouldn't be arsed going to it. A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it

**drinkfeckarse** · 11/10/2006, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

A Spain v Peru friendly played in Barcelona's olympic stadium last year got 20,000 at it

That's a good marker. 57,000 indicates a great crowd then if you look at it that way.

**Lim till i die** · 11/10/2006, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

Well ball probably wrote about it because he had nothing else to write about. I posted it here because I'm interested in it. There are obviously catalans who go between both of them but fair play to you making your second mass generalisation to annoy me in two days...

Surely that's nothing to be proud of

You have to generalise to a certain extent when dealing with things as broad as national identity, I can't ask every Catalan personally how they feel about the issue. All I am saying is that in a region with a population of over 7 million a crowd of 57,000 for a showpiece game against the Basques might suggest that Catalan Nationalism isn't quite as rampant as some would have you believe

Also apologies for going off topic but I've been over yesterday and not once did I make a generalisation with regards to the issue that bothered you. I was merely stating an opinion

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 1:49 PM

Right, first the off topic bit, you stated that youi can't listen to a Catholic debating what is evil, implying you believe the Catholic church to have done many evil things (you explained this later on). Your point implies that all Catholics steadfastly think the Church did no wrong, which frankly is rubbish. Lots and lots of catholic scholars know the church did massive amounts of wrongdoings and there are moeve,ents within to church to remove some of their current policies. You absolutely did lump all Catholics in together

Here, you said Catalans annoy you with your "Phoney nationalism". I was pointing out that those who believe in Catalan nationalism arenot phoney, those who don't believe it cannot be called Catalan nationalsit and therefore couldn't be included. By constantly trying to suggest it was a poor crowd you're assuming that all Catalan nationalist would go toa football game... If there was a vote for separation and 57,000 turned up, then you could argue about it but 57,000 people turning up to a football game is good (BTW the only landmark issue is playing the Basques, the Catalan team play every year)

**Pablo** · 11/10/2006, 2:48 PM

Didnt Andalusia play Brazil a few years back?

**Dodge** · 11/10/2006, 2:50 PM

Most of the regions play an international team once a year.

**Over the post** · 11/10/2006, 3:42 PM

Tis a difficult one. I've lived in Madrid for eleven years now where most of the population are very centrist and suspicious of Catalan or Basque nationalism to say the least. But being an Irishman (married to a Galician) I am very sympathetic to national minorities.
One common trait among Spaniards is that they are hugely proud of the town/village where they are from and are genuinely convinced that their village's wine, landscape, women, etc. are unrivalled the world over. This often applies to football too; even the proudest Spaniard will follow the fortunes of his club (be it Madrid, Barça or whatever) more closely than that of the national team. And in the same way that the most reactionary Real Madrid fan won't give a toss if the national team are beaten by Norn Iron as long as Capello can get Ronaldo and Van Nistelroy firing on all cylinders, your ardent Catalan nationalist will prefer to see Ronaldinho and the lads blazing a trail through Europe rather than have the Catalan team achieve full recognition.