Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[DannyInvincible]

Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!

I'm no fan of Keane but part of me thinks MON may be glad to have him as bad bad cop. Martinez has a history of discouraging players from playing for Ireland and the Grealishs are dicking us about at this point. MON can't come out and say it but Keane can and while it gets written off as more Keane rantings, i'm sure it will have given the recipients of the criticism something to think about. If Grealish doesnt do enough to warrant an England call up, this debate will go on for years like Stephen Ireland and Kevin Nolan. Somebody has the force the decision so everyone can move on. If he wants to play for us great, if not move on. Martinez is also likely to think carefully about persuding his players to drop out from now on knowing how it might be perceived.

That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why did you think Doherty was a better option in the first place? Had you really seen enough of either player to have an opinion?

Same with Keogh and Pearce... you said time and time again that Pearce should be ahead of Keogh in the pecking order, now after one friendly you're saying you're just as nervous with Pearce or Clark as you are with Keogh, a friendly Clark actually played well in. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion is often based on very limited knowledge of what you've actually witnessed yourself. Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Can you explain how you're a pragmatist again please?

A pragmatist is someone who is pragmatic, that is to say, someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. A pragmatist usually has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract them.

Is this not the complete opposite to how you feel about Christie's inclusion?

I've seen enough of Doherty at youth team level and club level to believe that he warrants an International call up. I haven't seen enough of Christie to warrant an opinion on him. Though I am not the one pushing for his inclusion in the starting line up for the Poland game based on one friendly match, in which he had several FIFA style attacking forays he would not get in a competitive situation against a better standard of team, and also several nervous defensive moments.

I have said Pearce is better than Keogh and I maintain that. I maintain Delaney should be in the squad ahead of both of them. Clark is a better player but his form has regressed over the last two years and he was noticeably shaky against U.S.A. Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!



That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.

What are you babbling on about now? I complimented Christie & McGoldrick on their debuts and said I may have been hasty in saying Doherty was a better option but lads it's one match like. What more do you want from me? "Swept under the carpet" LOL

Almost a year ago, I said that Grealish was not 100% committed to Ireland and deciphered from his media comments that he was unsure he wanted to stick with Ireland. Other people, at times quite belligerently, maintained otherwise. In August, he declined an invitation to join the squad, which MON said himself, despite people's vehement protests to the contrary, maintaining that he wanted more time to think about it. He then declined an U-21 call up stating that he was focused on signing a new contract; new contract signed; he declined a second U-21 call up stating that he was focused on breaking into the Aston Villa first team.

I haven't ranted or raved (to the contrary), I haven't made any fallacious statements about Grealish and I haven't insulted him at any stage.

Did I receive any apologies for some of the belittling comments I received over the course of the last 9 months. No, I didn't. Just more mocking and condescension.

And you know fully well, Danny, that my problem with you goes no further than you being completely incapable of letting something go, making insulting comments about my posts and opinions and all around belligerence directed at me which I haven't reciprocated.

But I'm sure you will put me in my place again with another lengthy diatribe that is full of the same hypotheses I am supposedly guilty of and alternately accuse me of playing the victim, seeking pity or WUMMING because my opinions rub you the wrong way.

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Typical deflection... Why not face up to and follow through on arguments in which you originally purport to have an interest? You could at least attempt to reconcile or explain your own apparent contradictions? What do other people's alleged contradictions have to do with yours? They're completely irrelevant.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

If you're a pragmatist, why bang on about what you perceive to be the one or two single reasons for his declaration so dramatically?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Contd....

Gibson & McGeady are squad players. Coleman & McCarthy play every game. That's the rub. I couldn't be arsed saying anything more on the situation but O'Neill has hinted at unease with the way Everton are doing things and Keane has outright voiced his opinion on it. I'm sure the same thing will arise again when we play Poland in March and Everton are competing on several fronts. We're under enough pressure as it is without Martinez getting in McCarthy & Coleman's heads.

I can't understand why people said back in October that we were right to be diplomatic when dealing with Everton and take their word over McCarthy & Coleman's injuries, yet are now saying that it is down to our incompetence that we didn't dig our heels in and have them sent over for assessment.

Stoke allowed a player with a far more serious injury to link up with the Ireland squad, be assessed, respected his (and our) wishes; giving him every chance to participate in the game.

I wish there was more transparency on Everton's side.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Typical deflection... Why not face up to and follow through on arguments in which you originally purport to have an interest? You could at least attempt to reconcile or explain your own apparent contradictions? What do other people's alleged contradictions have to do with yours? They're completely irrelevant.



If you're a pragmatist, why bang on about what you perceive to be the one or two single reasons for his declaration so dramatically?

Eh I'm not banging on about them dramatically. It's not my fault that my comments draw such ire and attract derision like moths are drawn to flames.

"Typical deflection". I am following through on arguments in spite of your babblings and derision. It's okay for people to label my statements as contradictory - which they weren't - while ignoring some of their own then? Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.

[Charlie Darwin]

Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.

Who said that?

[DeLorean]

I've seen enough of Doherty at youth team level and club level to believe that he warrants an International call up. I haven't seen enough of Christie to warrant an opinion on him.

Exactly. You hadn't seen enough of Christie but you still thought Doherty should have been called up ahead of him. My whole point.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me.

But those reasons are more emotional than practical i.e. not at all pragmatic. Again, my whole point.

[DannyInvincible]

What are you babbling on about now? I complimented Christie & McGoldrick on their debuts and said I may have been hasty in saying Doherty was a better option but lads it's one match like. What more do you want from me? "Swept under the carpet" LOL

Almost a year ago, I said that Grealish was not 100% committed to Ireland and deciphered from his media comments that he was unsure he wanted to stick with Ireland. Other people, at times quite belligerently, maintained otherwise. In August, he declined an invitation to join the squad, which MON said himself, despite people's vehement protests to the contrary, maintaining that he wanted more time to think about it. He then declined an U-21 call up stating that he was focused on signing a new contract; new contract signed; he declined a second U-21 call up stating that he was focused on breaking into the Aston Villa first team.

I haven't ranted or raved (to the contrary), I haven't made any fallacious statements about Grealish and I haven't insulted him at any stage.

Did I receive any apologies for some of the belittling comments I received over the course of the last 9 months. No, I didn't. Just more mocking and condescension.

And you know fully well, Danny, that my problem with you goes no further than you being completely incapable of letting something go, making insulting comments about my posts and opinions and all around belligerence directed at me which I haven't reciprocated.

But I'm sure you will put me in my place again with another lengthy diatribe that is full of the same hypotheses I am supposedly guilty of and alternately accuse me of playing the victim, seeking pity or WUMMING because my opinions rub you the wrong way.

You're opinions don't rub me the wrong way at all. You know this. I don't know why you keep saying that. You obviously can't think that. Even SvD pointed that out to you in very clear terms the other day. It's your suspect, agenda-driven "reasoning" that irritates me, as you well know. It gets me because you've clearly got enough intelligence for self-awareness, so I have to assume you're simply stirring.

It's not that I won't let something go; it's that I don't like malicious bull**** being swept under the carpet. If you feel I'm constantly pestering you for answers, explanations, and clarifications, it's only because there are so many questions you've rashly invited upon yourself that you've simply decided to ignore. It's poor manners to give the impression you're interested in a serious discussion and then engage in deflection and deceit. Do you think my exasperation isn't related to the way you conduct yourself?

You claimed you were right on Grealish the other day? In what sense are you right and the rest of us wrong? The whole thing is still very-much ambiguous.

I can't understand why people said back in October that we were right to be diplomatic when dealing with Everton and take their word over McCarthy & Coleman's injuries, yet are now saying that it is down to our incompetence that we didn't dig our heels in and have them sent over for assessment.

Who are you referring to, or are you just erecting straw men now? Are you trying to imply that I held those two seemingly conflicting positions? To be clear, I certainly didn't.

I wish there was more transparency on Everton's side.

Aye, but you're a realist, aren't you? Face up to it that Everton don't owe us anything - we have to look out for our own interests - and you'll have less need to waste your energy moaning about Martinez (who is only doing his job and looking out for his own club's interests).

Eh I'm not banging on about them dramatically. It's not my fault that my comments draw such ire and attract derision like moths are drawn to flames.

Butter wouldn't melt...

"Typical deflection". I am following through on arguments in spite of your babblings and derision. It's okay for people to label my statements as contradictory - which they weren't - while ignoring some of their own then? Funny how I haven't heard a squeak from people about why they were so assertive that Grealish was fully committed to Ireland and would never entertain switching to England.

The contradictions of others have nothing to do with your own. Why are you still talking about them, and, worse, in a seeming attempt to deny your deflection? I don't know where you get the impression that I'm condoning contradiction.

And another straw man there; I don't think anyone would have been in a position to say he would never entertain switching to England. Most people have long acknowledged the ambiguity of the situation without getting overly possessive and paranoid.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

What was the bone of contention between me and certain other people before August? AFAIA I believed Grealish wasn't 100% committed to Ireland and used quotes and facts to back up my point of view. Other people disagree with what I am saying. Lo and behold he isn't 100% committed and is mulling over what country he wants to play for. If that is what you mean by ambiguity and vagueness, then yes, obviously it's ambiguous and vague so much in that sense. The lad needs to make a decision and accept it. Before it becomes any more farcical. Nobody will begrudge whatever decision he makes. He is an adult, as are we, and we will all accept it. What is hard to accept is "dicking around". And I find it hard to believe that communication and transparency from their side has to be an issue when Keane & Grealish are employed by the same club and O'Neill has tried and seemingly failed in attempts to discuss things with them.

I think I conduct myself very well. I think I am very composed. It is not me bringing up other posters (Paul) to back up my view, making accusations, mocking other people's posts and bringing up old wounds on threads.

We are only having this problem with Martinez. We are not having/nor have we had this problem to such an extent with other managers. It is becoming a recurring issue. McCarthy was fit enough to play in the Scotland game. He didn't because his club manager is getting in his head. He is reluctant to let these players go on Intl. duty. Compare his attitude to Sam Allardyce who has never stopped Joey O'Brien from linking up with Ireland and criticised Trapattoni after he publicly doubted that another injury prone player (Reid) was able for the rigors of playing football. Compare it to Mark Hughes. I fully believe that McCarthy & Coleman will play regularly until March when it becomes an issue again.

Again, I would love to know how diplomacy from our side in October becomes incompetence from our side in November. What more can we do? We take their word for it, players aren't sent to be assessed, the extent of their injuries is not sufficiently communicated, a player shows up to be given the all clear to play (and doesn't) and now we hear Everton are reluctant for the other to play in a friendly.

"Butter wouldn't melt". Is there really any need for this?

More namecalling. I'm not paranoid. I'm quite realistic about the issue and have been as far back as January. That's not paranoia, especially if events transpire as you predicted they would.

It wasn't me that accused others of contradiction. I'm just pointing out the same contradiction apparent in others comments.

It's a lose lose situation. I complimented Walters which shows I don't have a grudge against him and whenever I make a comment about Keogh that doesn't criticise him I get mocked or have people making "witty comments" and people accuse me of being hung up over something.

And I also love how you constantly bring up other posters to validate yourself and then go pigeonholing me and Paul together as this "Us. Vs. Them" kind of thing. Even if it is done jokingly sometimes.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Exactly. You hadn't seen enough of Christie but you still thought Doherty should have been called up ahead of him. My whole point.



But those reasons are more emotional than practical i.e. not at all pragmatic. Again, my whole point.

My point was why pursue an eligible player for a position and call up injured players i.e. Stephen Kelly & Joey O'Brien while ignoring a player who has played with distinction all through the underage levels and has more experience at PL and Championship level and whose form perfectly merited a call up over the last 12 months? That was my point. You can now see a correlation between calling up Kelly and waiting for Christie's documents to go through. During this period of time, Doherty or someone else could have been given a chance instead of calling up someone/people who is/are literally incapable of playing. It's strange management.

Doherty is quite unhappy with the situation. Should he attract the derision I am receiving?

[DeLorean]

I don't understand the point of MON calling up Kelly and company either, but that's not the point and you know it. You felt Doherty should have been called up ahead of Christie, without being able to compare the values of each player. I don't see the sense in that.

[Stuttgart88]

Any idiot could see that Grealish's tweets were cause for some concern wrt whether he could change association. That wasn't the bone of contention. The value judgment associated with it was.

It's hard to tell whether TOWK is being disingenuous in many of these arguments, outright evasive or dishonest, or simply a very cunning WUM who enjoys winding people up because of some sad psychopathic disorder.

SvD summed it up accurately: none of his supposedly radical observations are unique, many are simple enough and widely shared.

[DannyInvincible]

Again, I would love to know how diplomacy from our side in October becomes incompetence from our side in November. What more can we do? We take their word for it, players aren't sent to be assessed, the extent of their injuries is not sufficiently communicated, a player shows up to be given the all clear to play (and doesn't) and now we hear Everton are reluctant for the other to play in a friendly.

Towards whom are you even directing this? I already outlined my position clearly and it doesn't match what you've written there. I didn't applaud any alleged diplomacy. I've always said we've only ourselves to blame if we don't stand up for ourselves and our own interests if they come into conflict with others' interests.

[gastric]

TOWK, take the hint and stop your continued agenda driven posts. They really are becoming a sideshow on here and please take responsibility for what you actually post. Why can't you just debate the merits of players based on their ability rather than their background. Whatever your opinion, Christie is an Irish international now, that's reality, accept it and move on.

[DannyInvincible]

What was the bone of contention between me and certain other people before August? AFAIA I believed Grealish wasn't 100% committed to Ireland and used quotes and facts to back up my point of view. Other people disagree with what I am saying. Lo and behold he isn't 100% committed and is mulling over what country he wants to play for. If that is what you mean by ambiguity and vagueness, then yes, obviously it's ambiguous and vague so much in that sense. The lad needs to make a decision and accept it. Before it becomes any more farcical. Nobody will begrudge whatever decision he makes. He is an adult, as are we, and we will all accept it. What is hard to accept is "dicking around". And I find it hard to believe that communication and transparency from their side has to be an issue when Keane & Grealish are employed by the same club and O'Neill has tried and seemingly failed in attempts to discuss things with them.

The FAI/Martin/Roy could put a stop to this "dicking around" tomorrow if they wanted by issuing Grealish an ultimatum. I'm happy enough to wait until the lad makes a decision that we and he can be completely happy with, but if you're so unenamoured by it all, take your discontent out with the FAI/management for letting this go on. Prior to August, you were passing it off as if he had no sentiment for Ireland and was concealing a secret desire to represent England. Neither of these have been proven to be true/come to be true, so from where you get this notion that you're right on it all, I don't know. Furthermore, you seemed to frown upon the fact that a dual national might have the audacity to be conflicted as to which country to represent. You certainly weren't very empathetic or understanding, if I recall correctly.

I think I conduct myself very well. I think I am very composed. It is not me bringing up other posters (Paul) to back up my view, making accusations, mocking other people's posts and bringing up old wounds on threads.

Sure have one of these why not?:

We are only having this problem with Martinez. We are not having/nor have we had this problem to such an extent with other managers. It is becoming a recurring issue. McCarthy was fit enough to play in the Scotland game. He didn't because his club manager is getting in his head. He is reluctant to let these players go on Intl. duty. Compare his attitude to Sam Allardyce who has never stopped Joey O'Brien from linking up with Ireland and criticised Trapattoni after he publicly doubted that another injury prone player (Reid) was able for the rigors of playing football. Compare it to Mark Hughes. I fully believe that McCarthy & Coleman will play regularly until March when it becomes an issue again.

McCarthy was getting over a tear and expressed that he didn't feel good himself. If Martinez secretly dislikes his players playing international football - although he claims otherwise - whilst other managers are all for it, then the lesson there is that different managers have different attitudes and preferences for their players. It still doesn't change the fact that Martinez owes us nothing, although he publicly claimed to have a good relationship with Martin despite Roy's wisecracks. All you do is moan about this; what do you actually want or expect to be done about it? Do you expect something of Martinez and, if so, why? He has no responsibility to Irish football. We have to protect and stick up for our own interests. We can't rely on others to do it for us. It'll only become an issue again in March if we let it become an issue. We'll still have the power to call our players over for medical assessment in March and if there has genuinely been suspicion there since Germany, then we should try and get a sit-down with Martinez pronto to make it clear we'll be playing fit and willing players in future. You'd also like to think our players would have the strength of character to make it clear they aspire to play as much international football as they possibly can.

"Butter wouldn't melt". Is there really any need for this?

You present yourself as the innocent victim when much of what you do on here involves stirring sh*t and winding people up. Does it genuinely surprise you that you provoke the responses you do so often?

More namecalling. I'm not paranoid. I'm quite realistic about the issue and have been as far back as January. That's not paranoia, especially if events transpire as you predicted they would.

As I predicted they would? What are you referring to?

And I also love how you constantly bring up other posters to validate yourself and then go pigeonholing me and Paul together as this "Us. Vs. Them" kind of thing. Even if it is done jokingly sometimes.

Ha, it was Paul who positioned yourself and himself on some superior pedestal of truth; telling it like it is, allegedly. I just thought it was funny because it was complete bull. There's no conspiracy against you. You just rub a lot of people up the wrong way with your carry-on. I make reference to other instances of it now and again to reinforce my own points because you so often pretend to be oblivious to the issues other posters raise with you too. It's a terribly annoying trait that bothers not just myself, but you continue to play dumb to it.

[BonnieShels]

Lads, this madness is making the Ireland forum unreadable of late.

Danny, stop letting him rise you. Some others, including myself have dropped engaging at such a granular level. It's not worth it.

TOWK, I know people get at you and you seem to have it problems with it but it has been brought on yourself. You sometimes can just let things go ya know?

As regards your apparent agenda, I think the concept of you having an agenda is just too bizarre as it is an agenda of sheer inconsequential triviality that I think I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I think it's merely a case of you wanting to always be right.

Anyway, can we give it a rest now? Cheers lads.

[DeLorean]

Exactly, well said. If we keep feeding the beast we've nobody to blame but ourselves. It goes against my better judgement but I do it anyway.

All this Martinez stuff is a bit mad the more I think of it. McCarthy has 24 caps for Ireland, all under Martinez management at club level. He has played in far more Mickey Mouse type games than the ones he's missed recently. Coleman is almost being put in the same bracket just because he missed the German game, when he was clearly injured, as MON accepted himself. I have no suspicion towards Martinez at all, outside of his obvious obligation to put his own team first.

[DannyInvincible]

I know. My bad. I tried for a few days, I really did, but I keep rising to the bait and then end up later regretting it. I try to have faith in people and I like to give everyone a chance (and a second, and a third, it would seem... ) by engaging with them where others have dropped out, but there's just no talking to you, TOWK. I'm at a loss. I don't you how you do it; if you're on a wind-up, it's genius and it must require a terrible amount of energy, but if you're not, I dunno what to say really. It just can't be. You're too intelligent to be unable realise what you're doing. I think that's what gets me the most. I keep kidding myself that next time it'll be different, but as you always says, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you full-stop now because it is polluting the forum and detracting from my own enjoyment and the enjoyment of others; I regret that also.

[ArdeeBhoy]

This is the dullest thread ever...