QuoteRory McIlroy at Old Trafford today. Speaking to BT Sports he told of his father being a big Man City fan, but he started supporting Man United when he was younger because they were really successful at the time. It was pretty awful.
Ok, well best to not make daft assumptions either...Originally Posted by ger121
Hmm, like most of them weren't remotely welcoming to anyone of a non-unionist persuasion back then...
Like I said in an earlier post, my folks wouldn't have gone anywhere near them, more into rugby & the horses, so had to make my own selective choices...
Rory McIlroy at Old Trafford today. Speaking to BT Sports he told of his father being a big Man City fan, but he started supporting Man United when he was younger because they were really successful at the time. It was pretty awful.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
I've no interest in Rory McIlroy. I only follow my local golf team
Just getting a chance to respond properly now, but that's just a bizarre postful of angry, misdirected and over-protective nonsense. I'm surprised you seem to be letting what I can really only assume to be some inexplicable sense of enmity get the better of your usually cold and rational self. Have you got a chip on your shoulder over something? Not only are you being overly defensive (of "your" league and orthodoxy) and displaying a very delicate persecution complex (by blowing what I've said way out of proportion), you also seem to be imagining things by, in fact, completely misrepresenting me. I've not been attacking you at all. Why exactly are you polarising the discussion by erecting this false division between "we/us" (you and whoever else you believe thinks like you) and others (myself, apparently, and perhaps people you assume think differently from you because they "misunderstand")? I'm contributing to a discussion and offering my thoughts; in doing so, I have no intention of belittling anyone or suggesting I know it all. If my thoughts can add something positive; great. If not, I'll try have a re-think. I mean, many of the examples depicted in contributions to this thread have both amused me and filled me with despair too; I'm just saying that responding to them vindictively is of little benefit. I think it's a great shame that the broad football-following Irish public ignore the League of Ireland and I'd love if there was a widespread national pride in it, but they have to be convinced; not expected.
Living in Manchester for the past four years of my life has meant I'm somewhat out-of-the-loop with regard to goings-on back home, but I do consider myself a supporter of the league too. It's not a case of me versus League of Ireland supporters, from wherever you got that crazy impression, nor do you have dominion over who gets to consider themself an interested party and who doesn't. I feel daft having to say this (and I don't wish to overstate my commitment, because there are people who dedicate their lives to the league - and bloody good for them - whilst my ability to support in recent years has been limited and more latent due to my present circumstances), but I've invested plenty of my time and money in the league over the years and have been to over a dozen different grounds around the country following live games, so don't try cast me as "just another poster who doesn't know much about LOI, but has the arrogance to think [he knows] how to diagnose the problems and to fix them" and attempt to disqualify me from having a valid say here. At what point, in your opinion, might my "arrogance" constitute a legitimate point? I don't require a rubber stamp from you to validate my opinion, thank you very much.
I've not ascribed any mindset to League of Ireland fans generally, nor have I attempted to quantify how prevalent I think the discussed damaging mindset happens to be. I saw a very negative and spiteful antipathy exhibited in the thread by marinobohs and thought it worth challenging. Don't you think opinions like that are counter-productive? When I was being critical of that mindset, it should have been fairly obvious to anyone thinking clearly, and unburdened by a seeming petty grudge, that I was being critical of those who harbour such feelings rather than being critical of supporters of the league generally. Nowhere did I suggest it was a majority attitude. In fact, I even suggested that supporters of the league who catch other supporters of the league engaging in such negativity should pull the latter up on it. You're playing naive, however, if you're suggesting marinobohs is the only supporter of the League of Ireland who harbours such resentment as was displayed. Sure even Bonnie acknowledged that the existence of angry superiority complexes might be a bit more widespread; he implicitly (albeit vaguely) quantified it. That's it's tolerated can only be damaging, don't you think? Dodge has also stated his revulsion for the "whiny" attitude, so he too acknowledges its detrimental existence. Why single out my acknowledgment of it as somehow problematic and worthy of rebuke?
Well, direct your anger elsewhere. I wasn't painting everyone with the same brush. For some reason, you're the only one who's gotten touchy about what I've posted. If everyone else here thought I was having a go at League of Ireland supporters generally, might they not have been provoked into taking pot-shots at me too? You're out-of-order if you're ****ed off with me. Have I rubbed you up the wrong way or something? I don't think I'm being paranoid in saying I (and a few others) have noticed a familiar trend with you of late...All of the above is so far removed what I am completely confident the vast vast majority of LOI fans are like. And as I said, I don't think there is anything on this website to explain the general image you portray of LOI fans. So yeah, I'm pi**ed off about it.
Don't be silly. Of course that completely misrepresents my argument. I'm not that naive.So, how to go about solving the problems? I don't think it misrepresents your argument to paraphrase it using Sullivinho's post again: What is absolutely beyond doubt is that everybody will be interested in LOI if it's advertised to them properly. That is the axiom from which all further reasoning must proceed.
Your compact annotations are way off. Nevertheless, I do think people can be won over. Live football has serious mass appeal for humans all around the globe, so why not believe it can be the same in Ireland? I have faith in people and their ability to change. Evidently, you don't. And whether you like it or not, whatever methods have been tried to date to win people over haven't been broadly or nationally successful. Pointing that out isn't to denigrate the hard graft interested parties have put into promoting the league in their chosen way down through the years either. All I'm saying really is that there must be something to be done that hasn't been thought of yet to enhance wider appeal. That's kind of self-evident. I'm not arrogantly suggesting I have the answers, nor am I suggesting that advertising is the answer, but it's surely a surrender to resign oneself to a continuation of the present stagnancy. You'd give the false impression that all has been exhausted with there being little else to be tried. Are you really saying that? That there's nothing can be done? It's a very pessimistic outlook.Now, I don't think this is any more true about LOI football than it is abour archaeology or Irish stew or anything else. But you do: There's a way to win people over. It just hasn't been successfully tried yet, evidently. In fact, you wonder if we've been trying hard enough: Has it really been tried en masse at all? No doubt, advertising is the way forward: There is a way to crack it. It'll just require a bit of imagination.
An open discussion - all perspectives considered - can be had on what's helpful and what's not in the long-term, surely? If certain things have been tried in the past and not worked, what's your issue with acknowledging the obvious reality that maybe a different tack be required? Why do you see it as a bad thing that someone with an interest like myself might try and contribute to such a discussion in complete good faith? Why even might it be a bad thing for an "outsider" to offer an opinion from outside the box? Insider efforts are evidently struggling, so what harm might an unorthodox view pose? Once again, that's not to say that imaginative and inventive strategies haven't been employed by some who've gone to great lengths trying to think up novel ways of bringing more people through the turnstiles, but there's evidently something missing. I wouldn't for a minute want to trivialise or suggest it'll be easy, and if you think I phrased an earlier comment about imagination rather casually, there was no dismissive or arrogant intent involved whatsoever. For a start, the FAI could draw up a solid promotion and development plan with a set time-frame in mind. I know GAA is an institutional favourite amongst Ireland's political class, but what about governmental lobbying for greater support and building more influential political connections? Social media campaigns, exploiting celebrity links... I dunno; I'm not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't be doing, nor am I necessarily saying things haven't been tried and shunned, but just throwing out a few ideas. If you'd rather not hear them, ignore me. The popularity of football exploded in the US over the past few months, for example. The World Cup played a big role in that, sure, but something had to first render it relevant to huge swathes of Americans who previously mightn't even have known there was another version of football played with a round ball.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 17/08/2014 at 3:30 PM.
Give over. All I've done is acknowledge the reality that whatever methods have already been tried haven't really succeeded in achieving their stated aims. Even those dedicating their hard graft would admit that. It's the unfortunate truth. I'm not pointing it out in order to mock. I would never "glibly dismiss" the hard work done by clubs and other supporters over the years, so please don't accuse me of that. The FAI were at the forefront of my mind when I wrote about imagination. Having English Premier League supporters running the FAI can't be of much help either, of course. Anyhow, just because someone thinks they're doing right for something, it doesn't render them infallible or beyond criticism either, nor does it necessarily mean that what they're doing is actually proving beneficial. It's healthy to challenge orthodox opinions and received wisdom in a constructive way. Ultimately, we all want a thriving league and want to find the best way of achieving that. For some unknown reason, however, it appears you just want to shut up shop and limit the discussion to only those you assume to be interested and in the know.
I wasn't comparing League of Ireland football to an archaeology dig in Monaghan, just in case that's what you're thinking. I simply plucked an obscure and irrelevant pastime out of my head to demonstrate how senseless and inappropriate it is to assume that a non-supporter of the League of Ireland would require an "excuse" to explain his or her non-attendance at a League of Ireland game. No archaeology digger would ever assume that somebody with no interest in archaeology digging would require an "excuse" in order to explain his or her non-participation in a voluntary archaeology dig.I look at it in terms of who has a good enough understanding of LOI to be familiar with the problems it faces, and knowledge of the past attempts to remedy these problems. And when you portray LOI fans as you have above, dismiss their hard work as you have above, and offer up the analogy you offered earlier about archaeology, I'm not convinced at all by these arguments.
I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn.It was the usage of the word "excuse" (which you've continued to use) that I thought betrayed an imposed expectation upon these others you mentioned; as if the natural order of things required that they be attending games and, if not, then they must be excusing their absence. If you perceive them to be coming up with excuses, then there must, in your mind, be some obligation for them from which you think they're unduly excusing themselves. Don't you acknowledge how inappropriate using such a term is in the context of someone who has no obligation to be participating in what it is you think they're excusing themselves from? Their reason, if a conscious or non-passive one at all, would only be an excuse if they had a prior duty to attend. To be fair, I don't sense you're actively or intentionally going out of your way to criticise non-supporters, nor am I remotely questioning your evident good will, but I think it's important to acknowledge the connotations of the language we use in relation to non-supporters if trying or hoping to win them over.
I didnt miss the point and I can be fussy enough in relation to semantics myself...good job I cant spell! Yes using the term 'excuse' implies some sort of obligation, but i am not the one that would provide multiple 'reasons' for why I was not at the match. Therefore the person who is rolling out the 'reasons' themselves must feel some sort of obligation, duty or even guilt for why they chose not to go to games anymore. Otherwise they would simply offer thanks for the run down of the match and off back to their pint. In my opinion former active supporters of a club who share a passion for the club albeit during a different era probably do feel some sort of obligation to support the club by some means. I know I would! If i wasnt in Oriel for 30 years either by choice or by circumstances I am still likely to support and love the club and a part of me would probably still feel that I should offer more effort to support Dundalk by whatever means, financial or brainwashing the kids or something. It is not what is in my mind that causes intended or otherwise the use of terminoligy that is judgemental, it is my observation that many are making excuses to themsleves and try to justify their absence. The reality is that I care about attendences so I cant say that I dont wish these former fans would return and experience the enjoyment so many of us are getting with the current team. I do recognise though that it would be counter productive to patronise these people, be dismissive, insulting or even to plead desperately for their return. They will do want they want and indeed there are some old faces starting to make a reappearance in their own time. I dont like the elite fan attitude of some LoI fans. But as somone who attends LoI I do feel in a better position to comment and criticise LoI and will do so rather than the never been naysayers. It is this type of naysayer that ive seen most often convert to Loi fanatic - as they take the **** out of LoI I say sure you shall have a good old chuckle if ye come to the game, nothing to lose and get a few beers in next thing they're showing of a season ticket.
I did qualify my analysis as possible nit-picking and I hate to harp on about it, but I fear you've missed my point, unless you're just being stubborn.
I dont even know if i understand this post myself lol
Ah, no, I understand. You've explained perfectly well that the obligation or expectation isn't something that emanates from you. Rather, the people you mention rhyming off their reasons, entirely voluntarily and unprompted by yourself, give the impression that they're explaining away some personal sense of guilt. That's fair enough; nobody else is to blame for that really. It's when "excuse" is used to imply the imposition of some obligation upon the non-supporter from the supporter, I take issue because it can only breed disdain, but that's a different scenario from the one you've explained.
and yes I was being stubborn!
'After being starved of football all summer.... the English Premier League starts tomorrow...'
http://www.hotpress.com/Sinead-OConn.../11998584.html
You'd think Hot Press, being an Irish magazine, might have noticed that there's a football league in Ireland, but apparently not.
Isn't Stuart Clarke a big LOI (Pat's?) fan? Is he still editor of HP?
Bohs, and he's still deputy editor, yeah, but those kind of fluff pieces are written by unpaid interns. You know the type, wealthy parents, etc. They tend not to be LOI fans.
Stereotyping?
You do not have to have wealthy parents to be an unpaid intern.
The country is awash with unpaid and low paid (social welfare + €50) interns - your blithe comment does them a disservice
OK, I'll change it somewhat. I know enough of them to know background they tend to be from.
Danny, you've speculated that I have some personal grudge or enmity against you, that you've rubbed me up the wrong way somehow. It's not the case at all. I don't know you from Adam, I'm just commenting on what I see in your posts.
This is important, because you've also made efforts to portray me as a person that sees things as 'us' (LOI fans) and 'them' (non-LOI fans). You are trying to paint an image of me as somebody who is not only happy to summarily dismiss the opinions of 'outsiders' and suggest their opinions are invalid, but seeks to silence them somehow, to prevent non-LOI fans from getting involved in LOI-related discussion. This simply isn't true. I explained this already:
The simple fact is that lots of people talk about the LOI and what is wrong with it, and why, and how to 'fix' it (not that you have done all these things), and when I read or listen to their comments, I'll either come to the conclusion that they know what they're talking about, or the conclusion that they don't really know what they're talking about.
When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.
It's not about anything other than the some of the content of your posts.
Last edited by osarusan; 19/08/2014 at 1:28 PM.
I'm a bit confused about the concern with the "how to fix it" disdain. Is it the wording or the principle of outsiders (my word here, probably not the best but you know what I mean) offering advice or opinions?
If the phrase "fix it" was replaced by "how to attract larger crowds / new customers / more financial investment / players who'd otherwise go to English lower leagues" would that be met with more enthusiasm?
It's the fact the people proposing the fixes rarely have any real interest in the outcome. It's the equivalent of some yank walking up to you in the pub in London and telling you all about what the Irish people should do to fix the political and economic mess we're in before walking away smugly satisfied that his plan to "vote for somebody else" and renege on the bank debt is the kind of insightful analysis that you weren't capable of coming up with yourself.
Fair enough. Although, dealing with the actual content of my posts rather than with what you angrily assume to be the meaning behind them is the best way of demonstrating that. I still feel you're misrepresenting me, so I'll try re-clarify.
But some (and I never said all were, nor did I even suggest it was a majority) are delusional and full of repressed anger and hatred. How can you deny that? marinobohs' post was a perfect example of it. I didn't even indicate what I perceived its prevalence to be. A LOI supporter admitting that there are unhelpful attitudes amongst certain LOI supporters doesn't have to be a contradiction, nor does such an admission or acknowledgment amount to an attack on the LOI and LOI supporters generally. Are you afraid to acknowledge that or something?When I read your comments about some LOI fans being delusional, full of repressed anger and hatred, etc, and your comments about a bit of imagination being the missing link so far (worded 'slightly carelessly'? Damn right it was), and you offer an unfair analogy about a similar lack of interest in archaeology, and your notion that people are 'badgered' over their non-attendance, I think to myself, this guy isn't really all that familiar with the LOI.
I had said "rather casually" and I don't think I suggested it was the missing link. If that's how you interpreted it, well, I certainly didn't mean it to come across like that. I'm well aware that there are plenty of obstacles - things over which interested parties have much less control than their own imaginations - facing those who are already putting their heads into overdrive to try and attract greater interest.
What's unfair about the archaeology digging analogy exactly? If the LOI is as irrelvant to someone as archaeology digging, why would it be in any way appropriate to expect their interest or to expect an excuse if interest was lacking? It was within that context that I raised the analogy; one under which I thought an expectation upon non-supporters was being expressed.
When I used the word "badgered", it was as part of my analogy to try and explain how such a mindset of expectation or assumed obligation might seem inappropriate and unusual from another perspective. I wasn't explicitly accusing nesta99 of going round badgering people down the pub in Dundalk.
Liam Mackey used to edit HP. Liam and HP were very supportive of the KRAM campaign in 1987. Liam was MC at a public debate on the issue at Libery Hall (I think) which I attended. Liam would be outraged by that remark!
I'd say Danny has an interest in the outcome though.
He's not an outsider either, though. The disdain is towards people who don't take any active interest in the league or make an effort to attend games yet make it their duty to offer solutions, which any LOI supporter could tell you tend to be far more opinionated than active fans.
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