No, it's not silly. The 'War', for many, won't be over until we have independence. Nor will the IRA (or something similar) will go away until we have independence.Originally posted by SÓC
But isnt that silly. Letting pride get in the way of progress.
If the war is effectively over why not call a spade a spade and say its over. No mention of the word surrender.
There's a lot more than just pride involved in explaining why people won't say that the war is over. Drawing from experience of members of my own family (who grew up in Creggan, in Derry), it would be very difficult for them to admit that the war is over until the Brits leave. They've seen too many of their friends being shot dead. It was against the backdrop of incidents like Bloody Sunday and other British army/RUC killings many people joined the IRA. At very least, they'll want justice before declaring that their war is over.
The rejectionist Unionists will never be satisfied. They will always find something to excuse themselves from playing their role. There's still an attitude held of "We don't want a Fenian about the place [Stormont]". They wish only to go back to the days of "A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people". Unfortunately, it really does seem that there are those who just do not want to share power with Catholics.Originally posted by SÓC
Say the war is over, decommission the weapons. Disband the IRA.
Wait for the Unionist reaction. They would have no choice, no choice what so ever but to share power with SF. From there its just a slippery slope to a United Ireland.
That was most likely the Red Hand Defenders (cover name for various loyalist groups), who threatened to shoot any car with a southern registration plate.Originally posted by max power
while workin the the north of Ireland i have been followed to the border by a car and told not to return next week to work, while traveling to other gigs my company provided us with yellow number plates so our cars would not stand out, the war is over eh ??? this is the sort of rubbish that i'm on about, move on and life youe life and not other peoples.....
Ask the relatives of Rosemary Nelson or Danny McColgan if they are willing to simply "move on".
Personally, I can't 'move on' until, at very least, the British army is withdrawn from the streets of the north and the RUC/PSNI is fully reformed. And don't think my views are in any way extreme. Personally, I've suffered very little as a direct result of the Brits (was shot with a plastic bullet once when I was 8, and have been called a 'Paddy *******' or something similar on a few occasions), so it's a bit unrealistic to expect those who have suffered worse to be able to just draw a line in the sand and forget the past.
The past must be addressed before we can look to the future.
"the past must be adressed before we move to the future" that is the most sensible comment yet, looking and reflecting on our mistakes ( and yes i do mean our...both sides of the border and both sides of the political divide), not trying to create more problems...........
Ignore Max Power, he is no more, the future is Ron Burgundy. I'd love to be Ron Burgundy but they won't let me........
Lads, I'm not in the least interested in the Civil War, it was still causing trouble and strife in my own family up to about 10 years ago.
But on the topic of this thread:
There is no party going before the electorate in this country with as disreputable a bunch of candidates as SF (well, maybe those freaks in the in the Immigration Control crowd).
The fact that some of them are allowed to stand at all is disgraceful. It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.
But the so called liberal, caring, upstanding righteous Progessive Democrats, have a man, who is their effective leader, making a mockery of his profession, office and this so called republic, by his antics and mouthing off. Its SF now, but this creep is slowly but surely attacking virtually every civil liberty we have in this country.
He is making it acceptable to cast the most serious slurs against people, without a shred of proof, uses the most emotive threats to keep information from people that are entitled to it. He is an enthusiastic proponent of repealing the Freedom of Information Act, he has done nothing about the police force in this country, and wants to give the same highly suspect force increased powers to do what ever they like.
We all know exactly what Adams and Co. are, and can be wary of them.
It's the wolf in sheeps clothing that is far more likely to damage this society than any of the laughable semantics of SF.
C'mon Conor...Originally posted by Conor74
Developers are, more often than not, pretty hard nosed businessmen.
They are hardly going to start throwing money at parties that get a position of power once in a blue moon.
It's only natural that FF would have more corruption. It comes with the territory of being the biggest party. It's only natural that FG would be next, they've had their spells in office. As for the others, come on, like someone's gonna throw money to the Communist Party of Ireland to get a Section 4 plannng motion through? They say power corrupts, when the fringe parties get power they'll see it too, as it stands they'll have to go back and dust down their printing presses...ahem...
No matter what size your party is or how many times you are asked, you CAN say no.....
brendy-eire there will be a united ireland. the birth rates and last few census seem to indicate this.
IMO the british government and the british people want rid of northern ireland.
i wonder how the unionists would react if scotland became independent? c'mon the snp!
Actually the SNP are a good example of how a political wish for independence can be progressed without the need for terrorism
Very little state-sponsored terrorism or collusion or British Army on the streets or protestors being killed or lack of civil rights or jerrymandering or appalling housing and job prospects for the Catholic people of Scotland. No comparison whatsoever.Originally posted by eoinh
Actually the SNP are a good example of how a political wish for independence can be progressed without the need for terrorism
KOH
No One Likes Us, We Don't Care
In fairness he's deliberately made the allegations outside the Dáil so SF have the option of suing him for libel if it's not true. I'll still vote for a Raman ahead of McDowell any day.Originally posted by patsh
But the so called liberal, caring, upstanding righteous Progessive Democrats, have a man, who is their effective leader, making a mockery of his profession, office and this so called republic, by his antics and mouthing off. Its SF now, but this creep is slowly but surely attacking virtually every civil liberty we have in this country.
He is making it acceptable to cast the most serious slurs against people, without a shred of proof, uses the most emotive threats to keep information from people that are entitled to it.
EL grounds are like good episodes of The Simpsons, no matter how many times you see them they're still funny
Maybe thats because there was no real equivalent of the IRA in Scotland.Originally posted by WeAreRovers
Very little state-sponsored terrorism or collusion or British Army on the streets or protestors being killed or lack of civil rights or jerrymandering or appalling housing and job prospects for the Catholic people of Scotland. No comparison whatsoever.
KOH
(i know there was the SNLA but they were tiny- or are, if they still exist)
Also the SNP have never won a majority of the seats or popular vote in Scotland unlike Ireland where the Union has lost every election since the franchise became reasonably broad and the Brits just ignored it.
EL grounds are like good episodes of The Simpsons, no matter how many times you see them they're still funny
Originally posted by Macy
btw the majority of people supported the treaty.
btw2 he continued to support the IRA in the north after the treaty
btw3 Dev and Co's problem with the treaty wasn't partition, it was with the oath.
btw 4, one thing always conveniently forgotten by our friends in the north is that the six counties were the least supportive of the republic (the real republic) during the Tan War. It was the one place the nationalist party wan' blown away.
EL grounds are like good episodes of The Simpsons, no matter how many times you see them they're still funny
Yeah the PD's are very sinister alright. They're even worse than the Nazis in many respects. They even make Fine Gael look like a bunch of pinko lefties. The PD's support the New World Order of Bush and Blair and want to destroy the last remnants of Irish identity like the Irish language.Originally posted by brendy_eire
And as for the PDs, they sicken me to be honest. Ultra-capitalist, right wing scum, who'd like to see pensioners thrown out onto the street for not being able to afford being put in care.
McDowell really shows his ignorance by calling SF 'Nazis',
Their aim is to turn Ireland into the 51st state of the United States. Padraig Pearse, Michael Collins and Eamonn de Valera would be turning in their graves at the thought of those scumbags being in government.
The ''shadow policing'' is an excellent reason not to vote for him, mind you seems to me like JHR is taking the **** out of South Kerry, which is worse ?
PR trust you london, national team supporters to lower the tone of the discussion
EL grounds are like good episodes of The Simpsons, no matter how many times you see them they're still funny
Re: Ferris being a vigo according to SuperKev.
Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?
[SIZE=1]
Actually that reminds me of a great football chant. Last season up in Richmond for one of the matches against Pats the City fans singing
Pusher Pusher Pusher
OUT OUT OUT
Made me laugh
[/SIZE]
Oh no not them again
You cant rely on them. They're all at seaOriginally posted by SÓC
Who will police the police? I dont see the coast guard around?
Definately the most sensible words spoken so far in this thread.Originally posted by patsh
There is no party going before the electorate in this country with as disreputable a bunch of candidates as SF (well, maybe those freaks in the in the Immigration Control crowd).
The fact that some of them are allowed to stand at all is disgraceful. It phsyically disgusts me that Martin Ferris, a convicted gun runner, should have been elected ahead of a man, (his party allegience is immaterial), who did as much as he could to stop the killing and try to get some sort of peaceful settlement.
I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.
Champions!
Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it?Originally posted by Colm
I don't know how some of these guys are allowed to call themselves politicans. As Patsh said some of them (probably most of them) shouldn't be allowed to stand as election candidates at all.
Besides, Ferris has served his time. Our justice system is based on the assumption that people can change.
Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.Originally posted by brendy_eire
Right enough, fighting for independence, terrible, isn't it?
Champions!
The same methods as those used during the War of Independence.Originally posted by Colm
Yeah, it is terrible when you adopt the methods that this lot have done.
What methods did you expect the IRA to use exactly then? Use of tanks, aircraft and open combat weren't options. The use of guerilla tactic was the only viable option for the IRA since its creation. They wouldn't have stood a chance in open combat. You can't defeat a guerilla army, it's the obvious choice.
IMO if Pearse et al hadnt used violence during 1916 we would now have a free, independent and united ireland.
The IRA campaign is an example of a terrorist campaign that didnt work.
There are many more examples where peaceful protest won out in the end. As for fighting - who remembers Biafra?
Gandhi was the man.
As the hunger stiker Terence Mac Swiney once said, "It's not those who can inflict the most, but those who can suffer the most who will conquer".
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