Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[Mr A]

I noticed last night in Shannon airport (in the midst of bussing it back from Limerick to Galway) that the only translation of the signs in the airport was into Irish.

Basically they're translated into the one language that doesn't help anyone, given that the vast, vast majority of people who can speak Irish can speak English anyway?

Wouldn't it make infinitely more sense to have the signs converted into German, French, Spanish, Polish or basically any other European language instead of paying feckin lip-service to Irish in such a useless manner?

[pineapple stu]

Most people can speak English, so no real need to go into so many other language. I don't agree with putting signs up in Romanian, Chinese, etc purely for immigrants as it discourages them from learning English and actually fitting in in the country.

What's the harm in putting the signs into Irish? Foreign visitors - unlike ourselves, it seems - are interested in our culture, and signs in our language is a very evident indication of that. I remember in the midst of the Dingle/An Daingean row an American writing in that, from his (tourist) point of view, An Daingean was far preferable as it was properly Irish.

[Mr A]

In airports all over the world the signs are several languages to help people to find their way around. I have no objection to Irish being there, but I really do think we should be trying to make things easier for tourists by having a few other languages there too.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I agree GH. I quite like using and seeing the cúpla focal whenever possible* but information signs should be in as many languages as you can stick on it.

*Always preferred Cumann Peile Na hEireann to Football Association of Ireland for example. Think you could make a far funkier looking monogram out of CPhE than you can with FAI too. FAI looks "agricultural" no matter what you do with it. Looks like a farmers union (yes I'm aware the IFA is th farmers union).

Anyway where the fcuk's the topic gone?

[pineapple stu]

In airports all over the world the signs are several languages to help people to find their way around.

Haven't really noticed that, to be honest. You usually have the national language, English and maybe a common neighbouring language.

Anyways, you have pictures as well, which are effecively a universal language.

[GavinZac]

Foreign visitors - unlike ourselves, it seems - are interested in our culture

what the hell has a dead language got to do with our culture? dancing at crossroads, road bowling and fireside story telling are each a hundred times more reflective of "our culture" (read: what we used to do, when there wasnt much else to do and the priest wasnt looking) and don't receive anything like the millions that are poured into the mental landfill that is the irish language.

[tetsujin1979]

A German friend of mine was over last year for a weekend, so I gave him a quick tour of Dublin, finishing in the Guinness Storehouse on late saturday evening.

He pointed out that of all the places we visited, the storehouse was the only place that had none of the signs in Irish, it was all in English. Something I never would have noticed. He thought it took a little away from the place, made it less authentic (if that's possible)

[kingdom hoop]

what the hell has a dead language got to do with our culture? dancing at crossroads, road bowling and fireside story telling are each a hundred times more reflective of "our culture" (read: what we used to do, when there wasnt much else to do and the priest wasnt looking) and don't receive anything like the millions that are poured into the mental landfill that is the irish language.

at first, then i feel more like this a very petty dig.

if you're so interested in what cultural activities we used to engage in maybe you ought to in fact begin investigating the irish language to gain an insight. for example the brehon law that used to rule the land was written in old irish, so from that you could learn that as a way of determining if someone was guilty of a crime one would be forced to lick a red-hot metal bar, if it burnt you you were guilty, if not you were deemed innocent. thats all i'll say for now

[GavinZac]

if you're so interested in what cultural activities we used to engage in maybe you ought to in fact begin investigating the irish language to gain an insight. for example the brehon law that used to rule the land was written in old irish, so from that you could learn that as a way of determining if someone was guilty of a crime one would be forced to lick a red-hot metal bar, if it burnt you you were guilty, if not you were deemed innocent. thats all i'll say for now

for a start, you're confusing history with culture. if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying. if you think that the brehon laws have any impact of culture in ireland, you're deluded. they may be a valuable insight into our past, but they have little to do with our culture. even if they did, one wouldn't need to know irish to appreciate that - you rarely find people studying plato in ancient greek or calculus in arabic.

languages change, evolve, are born and die. they are merely a matter of transmission - of little or no value without the ideas that they convey. it is these ideas that form culture, and being aware of these ideas, ideals and beliefs neither requires nor validates the method of transmission. it doesn't matter whether when i click submit, the web page uses HTTP:GET or HTTP:POST, once the information i want to convey is transmitted clearly. Our culture, the culture representing the island we live on today, is almost entirely conveyed in the English language. The Late Late Show, when it pushed our country out of the dark ages, was in English. The lyrics of Thin Lizzy, of Christy Moore, of U2 and of the Boomtown Rats, so reflective of the values and ills of irish society, are in English. What is wrong with that? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin? Do north Africans mourn the loss of Phoenician to the Arabic language? Native Americans are incredibly proud to tell the world of their philosophy, culture and history through a living, vibrant, verbose and expanding worldwide language. Why aren't we?

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?

He pointed out that of all the places we visited, the storehouse was the only place that had none of the signs in Irish, it was all in English. Something I never would have noticed. He thought it took a little away from the place, made it less authentic (if that's possible)

No, its not possible. Your friend was looking for the fake, plastic paddy, shamrocks and celtic cross Ireland of saint patricks day parades. That he confused the reality of the situation, that the storehouse was set up by entirely english speaking people for entirely english speaking people, with that fakeness and pathetic attempts to differentiate ourselves from britain through the use of tokenism, is a pity, because rather than appreciate what we have to offer, he is confused by our own lies and denial.

[pineapple stu]

if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying.

I'm sorry, but that's drivel, and backed up by absolutely nothing at that.

tetsujin1979 has made the point about foreign visitors noting the signs in Irish, as have I. Argue against that if you want, but don't post stand along jibberish.

You say "What is wrong with that (speaking and writing in English)? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin?" Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. There's nothing wrong with speaking and writing in English. But, by your own logic, what's wrong with speaking and writing in Irish?

You further say that "is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?" This is a remarkably ignorant statement. Irish is not solely the language of dead monks and scribes; the fact that it forms the basis for our place names, our own names, our dialect of English that we use says that. And being proud of our own language is by no means a sign of an inferiority complex - try telling that to the people of Wales, Israel, the Faroes, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, among, I am sure, many others, all of whom actually ditched their invader language (for want of a better phrase) for their own language in the past 150/200 years. (Wales obviously less so than the rest, but they have made significant progress nonetheless)

[Dodge]

Plenty of threads on the Irish language already lads...

As to the point of the initial post, its very rare for an airport to have signs in more than the local languages and English. There are some international sign pics like Taxis. Bises etc and they do the job if I can't read a sign.

[kingdom hoop]

for a start, you're confusing history with culture. if we could confine the irish language to history we'd be flying. if you think that the brehon laws have any impact of culture in ireland, you're deluded. they may be a valuable insight into our past, but they have little to do with our culture. even if they did, one wouldn't need to know irish to appreciate that - you rarely find people studying plato in ancient greek or calculus in arabic.

languages change, evolve, are born and die. they are merely a matter of transmission - of little or no value without the ideas that they convey. it is these ideas that form culture, and being aware of these ideas, ideals and beliefs neither requires nor validates the method of transmission. it doesn't matter whether when i click submit, the web page uses HTTP:GET or HTTP:POST, once the information i want to convey is transmitted clearly. Our culture, the culture representing the island we live on today, is almost entirely conveyed in the English language. The Late Late Show, when it pushed our country out of the dark ages, was in English. The lyrics of Thin Lizzy, of Christy Moore, of U2 and of the Boomtown Rats, so reflective of the values and ills of irish society, are in English. What is wrong with that? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin? Do north Africans mourn the loss of Phoenician to the Arabic language? Native Americans are incredibly proud to tell the world of their philosophy, culture and history through a living, vibrant, verbose and expanding worldwide language. Why aren't we?

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?

thought provoking post.

its not a right/wrong matter though. my point would be that culture, language and history are intertwined( or as gaeilge, fite fuaite - a lovely saying!), so that to gain an understanding of our modern culture we most look backwards, to a certain extent at least. i accept your point that this can be conveyed in english but not without regard for irish

what probably spurred me to respond originally was the fact that old irish has recently been removed form syllabi in ucd, which i must say saddened me and could hint at a worry slide in our appreciation of irish. call me a romantic, deluded so and so but in a modern multi-cultural world i'd like to see our culture protected such that 50 years down the line irish people can be remembered for having being distinct from england, with language playing an instrumental role in this differentiation. and i believe a more effective role than dancing at crossroads or road bowling, for a culture shapes and is shaped by its language. to say lyrics of U2 are important but to discount literature in irish(which is very much still alive) is unreasonable in my book

as an aside even the great english language derives some words from irish, so for studiers of etymology irish isnt a dead language either!!

[GavinZac]

tetsujin1979 has made the point about foreign visitors noting the signs in Irish, as have I. Argue against that if you want, but don't post stand along jibberish.

see edit of previous post

You say "What is wrong with that (speaking and writing in English)? Do Chinese people complain that they must speak Mandarin?" Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. There's nothing wrong with speaking and writing in English. But, by your own logic, what's wrong with speaking and writing in Irish?

i'm confused as to how thats my logic. I was talking about how our culture is almost entirely based in the english language. Apart from it being pointlessly limiting, theres nothing wrong with writing in the Irish language. It'd probably make you a fair bit of money if you came up with anything half decent - we're stuck with Dunmharu ar an Dart and Peig Sayers in the only viable market for Irish literature, school books.

You further say that "is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?" This is a remarkably ignorant statement. Irish is not solely the language of dead monks and scribes; the fact that it forms the basis for our place names, our own names, our dialect of English that we use says that.

And rome is named after romulus! London is named after a celtic god. many of our names are based upon hebrew words. None of these are reason to learn etruscan, briton-gaulish or hebrew. It is irrelevant. It is the past. They are absorbed into the english language - as I said, they change and adapt. Its certainly valuable to know where they came from - but what value does that give sticking a sign up that says "telefon" instead of "telephone"?

And being proud of our own language is by no means a sign of an inferiority complex - try telling that to the people of Wales, Israel, the Faroes, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, among, I am sure, many others, all of whom actually ditched their invader language (for want of a better phrase) for their own language in the past 150/200 years. (Wales obviously less so than the rest, but they have made significant progress nonetheless)

Quite a lot of jews would argue with you about yiddish being an 'invader language'. Hebrew's choice as language of the israeli state was for entirely religious and sectarian reasons.

Faroese was adopted as the official school language by a few thousand people on an isolated island in the north atlantic, never dropped from common use and is an intelligible dialect of danish. to compare it to the waste of millions of euros each year on attempting to convince four million people that actually, everything that has formed the environment they live in was actually in the wrong language and they are therefore not as Irish as a few thousand people looking for housing grants in galway or the nouveau riche looking for some way to keep their kids away from those horrid commoners is an insult to both of our intellegences.

Czech and Slovak never died as spoken languages and their temporary drop from use in administration and among the intelligentsia in the 18th century also hardly compares to the situation at hand in ireland. among your examples only one is a valid comparison - the valueless, self serving promotion of the welsh language by welsh nationalists.

[pineapple stu]

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Rather sad though that someone is quite happy to bash our own culture for reasons of rather shaky logic.

[GavinZac]

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

thats quite hypocritical, declining to argue a point simply because the other person disagrees with you is either cowardly or stubborn. I'm guessing its the latter

Rather sad though that someone is quite happy to bash our own culture for reasons of rather shaky logic.

again, the equation of culture and language shows that either you didnt read my post or you simply ignored it because 'your mind is obviously made up'. I love most aspects of my culture, regardless of whether I can no longer read peig sayers given my few years in the real world.

[kingdom hoop]

thats quite hypocritical, declining to argue a point simply because the other person disagrees with you is either cowardly or stubborn. I'm guessing its the latter

. among your examples only one is a valid comparison - the valueless, self serving promotion of the welsh language by welsh nationalists.

thats his point. you blew it

[pineapple stu]

Hypocritical? That charge doesn't make any sense, to be honest.

Nice to see you know what foreign visitors should be looking for when they visit more than they themselves, incidentally. I was going to ask them, but it's OK, because you appear to know for them.

Your argument is based on ignorance, equating Irish to dead monks, Peig Sayers and scribes. I don't really see that you're going to listen to any proper arguments such as are being made, so there's no point wasting energy.

[GavinZac]

thats his point. you blew it

explain?

Hypocritical? That charge doesn't make any sense, to be honest.

You're telling me my mind is made up, then completely ignoring what I actually posted, that language does not equate to culture.

Nice to see you know what foreign visitors should be looking for when they visit more than they themselves, incidentally. I was going to ask them, but it's OK, because you appear to know for them.

i dont care if foreign visitors want to see pointless fake, token irish. an irish speaking ireland is as true to reality as a disney-themed florida. that was my point - why do we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?

[osarusan]

to compare it to the waste of millions of euros each year on attempting to convince four million people that actually, everything that has formed the environment they live in was actually in the wrong language and they are therefore not as Irish as a few thousand people looking for housing grants in galway or the nouveau riche looking for some way to keep their kids away from those horrid commoners is an insult to both of our intellegences.

you raise some good points but both the assumptions above (highlighted in bold) are both pretty sad and an insult to the "intellegences" of those who truly love the Irish language and see it as an integral part or Irish culture.

Perhaps it was these assumptions that lead to this....

Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

[pineapple stu]

You're telling me my mind is made up, then completely ignoring what I actually posted, that language does not equate to culture.

I think you should go and look up a dictionary, to be honest. That's not hypocritical.

As a side note, gaelscoileanna are at record popularity, Irish is probably "cooler" and more accepted than at any time in the past few decades with the likes of TG4, Hector, live football and so forth and it's actually not uncommon to hear people, particularly younger people, talking in Irish. But if you want to tell them they're delusional idiots who've some false idea of their own culture, fair enough. You appear to have a real chip on your shoulder with regards Irish, possibly through some bad experience in school or some sort of "cool" teenage rebellion (I hate Irish - I'm cool) - the standard reasons. You'll get sense with age. You'll find a lot of older Irish people who express regret at not having more Irish. But then, they're probably delusional as well.