Dublin Groundshare Debate

**wws** · 15/02/2006, 12:18 PM

to be honest with you jAMES the ground share /re location issue with its consequent implications for vast profits on real estate sales in Dublin obviate this argument to all intents and purposes. Ollie Byrne is playing a totally different game to the one you outline above

**wws** · 15/02/2006, 1:28 PM

thanks for that analyses, interesting points but your central premise of the current financial situation of shelbourne i presume is guesswork? If you know that for a fact, fair enough but somehow I doubt Ollie and co would be divulging the exact nature of how they're carrying the debts / position with regard to their asset (the tolka lease) to anyone.

The respective values of Richmond Park and Dalymount is also guesswork. Needless to say niether club will get anywhere near their expectations and dreams - developers are slightly better at this game than loi football boards.

The moves are afoot - I suspect the fans will oppose it but the boards will welcome the fai intervention -

**wws** · 15/02/2006, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by BohsFan

My premise as regards Shels is, you are correct, largely guesswork and hearsay. I would still bet my shirt on being right though.

Dalymount Park has three values. One is based upon it remaining as a soccer stadium, one is based upon a straight sale for development but with existing zoning and one is based upon a sale contingent on a rezoning.

The value as a stadium is pretty low. The value as a straight sale for development but without rezoning is very very very substantial (it surprised me to be honest) and its value after rezoning is pretty close to breathtaking. Our advice on this is highly reliable and trustworthy.

I cannot guess what will happen in the end, who can, but any strong-arm stuff being pulled on Bohs is likely to prove counterproductive. There will be no bargains for the FAI or Ollie Byrne, rest assured. Furthermore, in the case of Bohs, yes our board have been asked to go ahead and talk to both the FAI and Shels and if they have a deal to bring to the membership they will. Then the membership will decide, its as simple as that in our case.

just on values of the various assets - its in the interest of the bohs and pats board to talk up their asset. As you say its their main position of strength as this pans out. Pats have an equally astronomical valuation of their assets (we know this from the rebuff to several millionaire investors who wanted to buy into the club but baulked at the idea when given the valuations). How much each club is capable of realising their estimated value is up in the air though

**Roverstillidie** · 15/02/2006, 3:11 PM

assuming shels are spending money they dont have on the basis of selling their lease to tolka in the future to clear debts, if that goes, they would have to live closer to their means, so they wouldnt be able to attract the players?

**Roverstillidie** · 15/02/2006, 4:23 PM

Originally Posted by BohsFan

I very much do make that assumption. However it would be a mistake to take that further and assume that to mean they will come out of Tolka with nothing. I fully expect Shels to leave Tolka with a reasonable few million in their pocket, even after they pay off the (assumed) amounts they have raised against their lease. If they move into Tallaght I can see them keeping the bulk of that money. If they move into Dalymount half or more than half of that will have to go to Bohs as compensation for us giving them a half share (even if they gave us the lot it would still be a bad deal for Bohs in my opinion) of the ground.

The implications to Rovers are not very positive. In short I would expect Shels budget to still dwarf Rovers and with the Irish public being the way they are I don't see Rovers history in the area counting for much when it comes to picking up the locals as loyal fans. You really don't want Shels in Tallaght. I don't say that as a Bohs fan rubbing it in, but think about it for the moment. You are trying to build again from the bottom up while Shels arrive in with all the fancy players. If you think local loyalty will compensate for that then I think you are making a grave error. That would only count if all thing were equal and in such a scenario that would certainly not be the case. Shels could easily become "The" Tallaght team. Watch out!

hard to disagree with any of that, but the assumption is that by the time anyone comes to join us, we will have strong enough roots, many of them already in place (underage sides, tallaght it scholarships, basketball etc). we have no real say in groundsharing, but you can be bloody sure we will try and ensure the ground is associated with Rovers in the public's eye.

**WeAreRovers** · 15/02/2006, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by BohsFan

The implications to Rovers are not very positive. In short I would expect Shels budget to still dwarf Rovers and with the Irish public being the way they are I don't see Rovers history in the area counting for much when it comes to picking up the locals as loyal fans. You really don't want Shels in Tallaght. I don't say that as a Bohs fan rubbing it in, but think about it for the moment. You are trying to build again from the bottom up while Shels arrive in with all the fancy players. If you think local loyalty will compensate for that then I think you are making a grave error. That would only count if all thing were equal and in such a scenario that would certainly not be the case. Shels could easily become "The" Tallaght team. Watch out!

Don't disagree with that analysis. We would have little problem with Pats moving in but Shels would be a whole different kettle of fag-smugglers.

The bright spot for us is that we're already well-established in Tallaght and will be in there a good few years before any other senior side. But we would have to put a successful team on the pitch. And therein lies the rub........

KOH

**Anto McC** · 15/02/2006, 6:23 PM

Originally Posted by BohsFan

I am a Bohs fan and Shels are looking for a room at OUR Inn. And WAR is a Rovers fan who is well aware that if Bohs put up the "no vacancies" sign then Shels will be slithering their way to Tallaght looking for room and board at his place.

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Mod Edit - Junk Removed from post - james
Anto - Cop on a small bit please.

Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?
Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

**Anto McC** · 15/02/2006, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Raheny Red

I'd say the other Shels fans on this site are just sitting back (like myself) and laughing at other eL fans getting their Tickers in a Nist over Oily and $h€l$

Yeah,thats pretty much it

You all sing your songs about "no one like us,we dont care........" but at the end of the day,Shels are the team everyone in the league,loves to hate(it's jealousy really) and the majority of us Shels fans love it,i used to be different but now,i love it

"F*ck them all,f*ck them all,
the long and the short and the small,
cos we are the Shelbourne and we are the best,
cos we are the Shelbourne so f*ck all the rest,
f*ck them all"

**chippie0001** · 15/02/2006, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Anto McC

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Tallaght is for the homeless and the Junkies,as far as im concerned thats for certain but Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?

Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

Tell me why we need this groundshare more than you? You have sold the lease on Tolka and are moving. We own our own stadium. For this to go through it needs a 75% majority or Bohs members so don't hold your breath for any long time on that one.

**pete** · 15/02/2006, 6:48 PM

Thread closed - some people unable to debate

**James** · 16/02/2006, 10:06 AM

I'm reopening this thread purely because I feel its probably the most important EL issue at the moment and quite alot of ppl here had decent points to debate on it.

I am keeping a close eye on it though, and any more muppetry will be moved and those guilty posters will be warned and banned as necessary.

james

**Dodge** · 16/02/2006, 10:32 AM

Good decision James. Hopefully the idiots will stay out.

Speaking as a Pats fan I'm petrified about the next season or two. The only hope I have is the fact the FAI and/or givernment never get anything done (certainly in sporting areas). Done at Richmond Park lat night there wasa fair amount of work going on and its' costing 3/4 million. Chances are they wouldn't spend that if they're looking to move to tallaght next year...

**wws** · 16/02/2006, 10:34 AM

AS A PATS FAN I GOT THE OPPOSITE IMPRESSION dodge

last night the ground was an even bigger tip than usual (if thats possible!)

I see it as deliberate to get ppl to think moving is a great idea. Richmond is a bomb site at the moment

**wws** · 16/02/2006, 10:36 AM

oh and btw niether the govt/the fai or the pats board would have any hesitation spending that 3/4 mill on richmond (its actually about .5m) and knowing full well that a sale and move was a year or two away. That fund is site specific and the waste involved is par for the course with these jokers

**Dodge** · 16/02/2006, 10:43 AM

As I said wws, I'm clutching at straws....

**Dricky** · 16/02/2006, 10:56 AM

I think it's very interesting that the hate for some clubs just piles through in their responses.
I think Bohs have the upper hand here because, worst comes to worst they have land they can fall back on. It is a huge area of land at that you could almost fit two turners crosses there. So on that they could, if it all went wrong, sell half the land and build a 10,000.00 seater stadium. Now that is an IF, worst case scenario. Their debt, in terms of football is a short term and as the biggest creditor was the revenue I believe. agreement has been reached there.

So Bohs have an asset without a charge on it, although it is not a liquid asset it is still a strong asset regardless of rezoning.
Shels have a man who would do anything for Shels, if he thought he could set up on his own without crippling Shels he would. There is no shels fan can deny that, if the do I would ask them to prove it, as Ollie has already proven his love for his club. Shels need this to ensure they are not left behind in several areas squad training ticket sales and other revenues.

Having to rent, having no home, not being able to keep their fan base/ or expand it (which you will agree is vital for all clubs). Having training areas and facilities that can be relied upon for the next 15-20 years, lets be honest this is the only way clubs will grow and survive, living beyond your means is history for Irish football. The Tax man is on to it, the banks are on to it and the FAI is on to it. Ollie doesn't want to move to the sticks land is too expensive in the City.

Bohs will be better with the money received but be under no illusion it doesn't have to be with Shels. They own a huge amount of land at Dayler.
Shels have a time frame they must stick too or it could be a very lean time for them. Ollie know that TV rights pay and Ads pay if he has no input into either and should Bohs deal fall through then without a major invester how could they survive?

**bohs til i die** · 16/02/2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Anto McC

But you wont put up a "no vacancies" sign,will you?
I'll tell you why not,You need this groundshare more than us!!

Mod Edit - Junk Removed from post - james
Anto - Cop on a small bit please.

Shels have a plan B should the groundshare fall through,What's Bohs plan B?
Sell yet another part of your ground maybe!!!

And what is Shelbourne's plan B?

We dont need the groundshare. We have multiple options that will be explored and investigated to see what is in our best interests.

Shels are in the weakest position of any of the Big 4 as Pats have Richmond, Rovers have Tallaght and Bohs own Dalymount Park.

**Réiteoir** · 16/02/2006, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by BohsFan

Anto, make the most of it while you can. It will all be over soon enough. Btw, if I were you I would try to be a lot nicer, It might make the likes of me less inclined to vote Shels out of business.

same here

**thomas** · 16/02/2006, 4:13 PM

I certainly think Rovers, Bohs and Pats should turn away john delaneys little scheme and ask ollie to move up to fingal. That way everyone is happy.

**pete** · 16/02/2006, 5:04 PM

How much would it cost to turn Richmond Park into a comfortable ground like Turners Cross with covered seats? i.e. no €8m stands.

If you kept the existing stand & put in similar stands at the other ends would surely get it finsihed for €2m? 1000-1500 seats behind each goal & another 1000 oposite the main stand for 6000 capacity?