No, I'm against UEFA's double standards. As oft explained.
Nothing especially to do with any clubs in particular...
Also some people need to read what others actually say, not just invent an 'agenda'.
Who said anything about an agenda? We have all acknowledged UEFA's double standards. My question is why Dundalk should be the club to challenge that double standard. Not only have you not answered the question, you haven't even addressed it.
Now, I will ask my question simply and without complication: why should Dundalk take the financial penalty of challenging the rules and not a club who can afford it? And I expect a direct answer this time and not another question.
I've already said why not, on a no.of occasions. More wilful mis-reading.
And they already have, on this occasion...
Who do you think has an agenda here?Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
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New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
Fair enough. But what about all the people involved in Dundalk FC? Not so long ago Dundalk were on the brink of going out of business and a lot of fans put their hand in their pocket to save the club and helped to revive the club and got nothing in return so to speak. Also, for years DFC were in the wilderness and the days of playing in the PD, nevermind Europe, looked unlikely. I'd imagine to most Dundalk fans their club means more to them than Palestine or wherever. Why should Dundalk FC, the LoI, FAI and the national team suffer because of a cause you care about? That's what could happen if DFC and FAI challenge UEFA over the fine. We (all forms of football in Ireland) could be expelled from European competitions.
Is there any limit to the self-sacrifice you would wilfully endure in order to ensure that the point was made? Where would you draw the line? Fines? Imprisonment? Hunger strikes? Enlisting with Palestinian resistence groups?...
If you're so convinced of the righteousness of the protest, why not donate €18,000 to Dundalk to cover the fine? Or alternatively, you might want to fund a (futile) legal fight against the fine and volunteer to cover any further losses incurred by the club as a result?
Dundalk are a football club. They never asked to be a platform.
As Charlie mentioned though, weren't you happy enough to enjoy the benefit of UEFA's standards when Celtic were re-instated in the Champions League at Legia's expense? Where were the principles then?
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 15/09/2014 at 10:00 AM.
I've already explained.In numerous posts.
Some of you are either being deliberately obtuse or are very slow on the uptake...
Even if you don't agree. Fair enough.
Arf! Pot and kettle comes to mind, some top (what I presume must be) wumming from AB in this thread tbf.
All you keep saying is 'principle'.
You appear to have ArdeeBhoy sussed.
Not exactly.
Have to repeat numerous, er, points as certain people seem a tad slow taking stuff in.
Apologies to the Dundalk fans, threw in one throwaway comment and the uber pedants have been circling since, despite them being, in the main, the ones 'at fault'.
It seems some of these so-called 'Ultras' are on a crusade against modern day football and the zionist fascist in Zurich. The whole thing is in their head. IMO, UEFA are right to block any politicial or religious flags, banners and such from football stadia. They've no place in football and football has no place in politics or religion etc..
That would be a fair summary if it were applied across the board. Yet it appears UEFA make it up as they go along - Israeli flags OK Ireland and other national flags (at EPL games) OK Palestinian flag NOT OK.
All flags are political (and many have religious links) ban all or ban none but at least be consistent
Irish flags at Premier League games are different. It's not a UEFA competition. Did Spurs display any Israeli flags at their European games? Remember, the Jewish communities in London and Amsterdam have asked Spurs and Ajax to stop bringing Israeli or Star of David flags to matches because it's bring up anti-semetic abuse at games. But both groups claim it's to do with their Jewish links and nothing to do with politics or religion. That's the big issue there. The Palestinian flags were a politicial statement according to UEFA and Celtic, St. Johnstone and Dundalk don't have any links with Palestine. Likewise, Rangers and Linfield have brought Israeli flags to games but have not links. UEFA have stated that due to the current conflict bothIsraeli/Palestinian flags were banned on political grounds.
I don't believe that football and politics are separable and, as stated earlier in the thread, I dislike the rule because I feel it sanitises football support and gags communal expression. That said, however, I cannot support what the Dundalk flag-wavers did. I reject their inconsiderate and shameless irresponsibility. I think any legitimacy their supposed protest might have had was seriously compromised by their failure to assume responsibility and the fact that they've been content to see their club take the hit for their obvious egotism. If you're going to make a political protest at a football game and use your club's stadium as a platform, I have no problem with that per se, but at least be accountable for your actions and be prepared to insulate your club from feeling the repercussions of your actions if necessary.
I'm not necessarily saying the rule is consistently applied - all flags are indeed inherently political, as you say - but do we know that Israeli flags are considered OK by UEFA? How do we know this? Just because we've not heard that clubs have been punished by UEFA for their fans waving Israeli flags, it doesn't mean clubs have not been punished for such.
Which was the throw-away comment? Unless I've misinterpreted, the argument put forth has consistently been that Dundalk should voluntarily take the hit of being exploited as a platform for protest because the upholding of some vague "principle" will always be worth more than any monetary cost or further penalty that might be incurred by the club. The problem is that the "principled" position you've assumed is untenable. It's littered with holes and contradictions.
You casually expect Dundalk's rejection (absolute, if necessary) of UEFA's authority, but you simultaneously accept that authority yourself in practice. You have been happy to accept that authority when it has been personally advantageous to do so, such as when Celtic were re-instated into the Champions League at Legia's expense. You welcomed it as the correct decision. If your rejection of UEFA's moral authority was principled, consistent and absolute, as you expect of Dundalk, you would absolutely reject the benefits that also flow from that authority as a matter of principle.
To add to an earlier point, not only did Dundalk not ask to be exploited as a platform, they explicitly requested (via their stewards) that those supporters waving the flags not use the club as a platform for a political/humanitarian protest. In choosing to make their protest at a Europa League fixture hosted by their club, it was the height of ignorance and contemptuousness for that minority to bring their (unwilling) club down with them. Where is the honour, integrity or legitimacy in a protest that shirks responsibility and leeches off an uninvolved football club as a platform only to let the club take the hit when the inevitable repercussions are doled out? It's simply indefensible and it's insulting to those investing their money in the club for purposes other than paying stupid fines of €18,000.
C'mon, AB; you know your stance is legally impractical and morally suspect. It'd be much easier work for you to just admit it.
Yawn, good luck with that! The very nature of even playing national anthems before an international game could be deemed political!
I think people who believe politics are not involved in football/uefa are mistaken.
Not going to reply to any more posts on this specific point, but know what I said and UEFA are a bunch of hypocrites, so my stance is perfectly justified.
And if you knew me better would know I'm not someone who will back down readily. Plus, as you should know from Fbk, I regularly take a non-UEFA national flag to Ireland games...but that's 'our wee secret'.
Can this get moved or closed down? This is not a Dundalk topic and hasn't been for a long time.
Bennocelt hasnt the manners to open up his messages for a response and ardee lad or toyboy is showboating.ffs these lads are well detached from the frontline reality of the situation.If any of you have 18k come ahead or else pish off
Last edited by Dunny; 16/09/2014 at 6:11 AM.
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