So Nationalists don't want an impractical compromise change to the border, they'll only settle for a much more impractica, larger scale notional change.
It makes no sense. You can hardly blame the rest of us for being out of touch.
Last edited by Gather round; 08/04/2013 at 3:13 PM.
Tbf, Nats (& unionists) will be down the pecking order if history is our guide. It'll be down to London who don't want/can't afford the North and Dublin who can afford it even less.
Any reversal of previous gerrymandering is likely to prove as unpopular and divisive as in the past and based on political votes doesn't represent the wishes of the vast majority. And who apparently believe in an 'all or nothing' agenda. You might just need to change their views.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 08/04/2013 at 3:23 PM.
I'll ask again. Why would it be unpopular and divisive among Nationalists for the 90% Nationalist voting towns next door to the Republic to join it?
Can't speak on their behalf, but be amazed if you find many Nationalists who'd generally agree. Let alone any politician.
We'll ask again. Why are certain people so out of touch with nationalist aspirations...
If tomorrow morning Tyrone, Fermanagh, West Derry and South Armagh were to be part of the new frontier with East Derry, Antrim, North Armagh and Down then I would reckon a fair few Nationalists may look at that twice.
It would stop us poaching most of "their" players anyway.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Hmm, there's a good few people in S.Down who'd not agree. As an example.
Though if a political party wanted to campaign on that basis, good luck to them...
I've answered. It's widely recognised that those aspirations reject an achievable compromise which doesn't actually contradict their larger-scale supposed ambition. That's just illogical.Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
We'll ask again. Why are certain people so out of touch with nationalist aspirations...
You're not normally so shy when wading into political debateCan't speak on their behalf, but be amazed if you find many Nationalists who'd generally agree. Let alone any politician
As you're unable or unwilling to answer, let me prompt you. Would it be because actually they don't really want any change to the border and like living in the British state as much as you do?
Tsk Bonnie, all residents of the areas you mention would of course be entitled to dual citizenship and eligibility of their choice.
And anyway you'd probably poach the English ones and all
Not their desire for a 'united' Ireland. They (probably) don't want a 'bit-part' solution.
And that's no less illogical that a 'unionism' based on coercion and illegal colonization.
As for me, given I don't live in the North like your good self, if you can find any widespread agreement like I keep repeating FFS, we'll be very surprised.
Anyway, shouldn't you be out drowning your sorrows after the demise of yer evil heroine earlier...
I read that as evil heroin dealer.
Clearly need some more celebratory cake.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Now that's one form of substance GR would agree with you on!
In the broader context I imagine such a prospect would be more unpopular the further one travels from the border as it would reset the demographic clock, so to speak, for those nationalist communities remaining within a redrawn Northern Ireland.
I've only skimmed through the previous pages so apologies for my lack of certainty but I take it you're playing devil's advocate here? You obviously realize that such a stance would open the door to almost perpetual re-partition which only serves to highlight the essential contrivance inherent in NI's construction.
That aside, it is an interesting prospect and, as absurd as it may seem now, I can see it being contemplated within unionist political circles after the next census. I currently live along the border between counties Armagh and Tyrone, where my father was born and reared. The collapse in the Protestant/Unionist population here has been quite marked, where before there was parity. Anyone following the news in recent weeks may have read of the possible amalgamation, or co-location to be precise, of the local Catholic and Protestant primary schools in the village of Moy. The existence of the Protestant primary school has been regarded as increasingly untenable in recent years and if this solution goes through I believe it will be the first of its kind in Northern Ireland. It will likely represent, and be described as, both a 'brave new dawn' for education in NI and a reflection of that problem within the unionist community; the dwindling Protestant population.
Last edited by The Fly; 08/04/2013 at 5:17 PM.
He is actually serious. Well, by his standards.
Aye, that's broadly true. As someone described it, in a smaller 72% unionist NI, a town like Larne would be even more of a cold house for Catholics than it is now.
But of course what you're imaging there is a spectrum of views replacing a consistent party line. You're implicitly acknowledging that the plan would be quite popular in Derry, Strabane or Newry.
Up to a point, and I've asked a couple of rhetorical questions. The setting of a precedent is sometimes offered as a reason why Unionists generally don't want to repartition. But your assumption that regular redraws would follow isn't wholly convincing. As there hasn't been one for 88 years, why would others inevitably follow frequently?I take it you're playing devil's advocate here? You obviously realize that such a stance would open the door to almost perpetual re-partition which only serves to highlight the essential contrivance inherent in NI's construction
On a bigger scale, the border between France and Germany has changed regularly since they both became independent states in the 19th. That doesn't mean that Alsace is going to transfer in the foreseeable future, does it?
So actually the existence of the border (as distinct from its exact route) isn't a contrivance as much as messy compromise which was no-one's first choice.
Just because some Unionists insist on harking back 300 years doesn't mean we can't look forward 10That aside, it is an interesting prospect and, as absurd as it may seem now, I can see it being contemplated within unionist political circles after the next census
Have you read Boyle and Hadden's book NI: the Choice (published in the mid 90s, before GFA). They describe the overall trend in border area population movements: villagers moved to larger towns dominated by their own side, while farmers clung grimly to the land.the possible amalgamation, or co-location to be precise, of the local Catholic and Protestant primary schools in the village of Moy. The existence of the Protestant primary school has been regarded as increasingly untenable in recent years and if this solution goes through I believe it will be the first of its kind in Northern Ireland. Whilst this example stresses the folly of the 'doubling' of public services it also reflects the problem for unionists; the dwindling Protestant population
My own Primary School in Belfast, Cliftonville (beside the football ground) is now integrated. But before that I attended Catholic primaries aborad, in The West Indies and Palestine. In the first, I was the only white Prod in the whole place
As your former alumni I.Paisley Jnr., once said to me, "You're living in 'cloud-cuckoo' land."
There must be a tiny chance a unionist majority would ever agree. Or ever campaign for, or negotiate, this.
Even if it is a preferable situation for some nationalists.
Tsk Bonnie, all residents of the areas you mention would of course be entitled to dual citizenship and eligibility of their choice.
And anyway you'd probably poach the English ones and all
Just like yer good selves!
North men, South men Poachers all!
Dunwich, Belper, Colne and Dunstable!
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Ha ha.
That chorus would be a fitting finale to the discussion about the establishment of an artificial statelet, cemented by gerrymandered constituent boundaries, to ensure a belligerent dominance of one larger ethnic group (still stuck in denial) over another smaller ethnic group.
But I wouldn't be so crass as to express my opinions on such a political matter, in what is a football thread, dedicated to the enshrined right of the FAI to direct our citizens from across the border, to aspire to an infinitely higher and more fulfilling sporting ambition.
I actually asked a friend this evening if there was a vote tomorrow and under the assumption that all issues pertaining to the possibility of this vote occuring were sorted out, would she vote for Tyrone, Fermanagh, West Derry and South Armagh/Down to join the other 26 counties? She said no initially... and then thought about it... and said she may allow herself to vote yes.
Now I ask ya... what would this new proto-nationalism be called which clearly could be a cause to be espoused? Neo-nationalism?
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
How many times do we all have to point out that strangers running from you on the streets are not friends?
No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.
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