Stephen Ireland

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

McLeish managed to get Birmingham relegated in 2010/11 scoring less than a goal a game, and a year later Villa were no better than them under his reign. They managed to stay up despite finishing the season a point worse off than Birmingham in their relegation season and with the same scoring record - 37 goals in 38 games. Under Lambert, Villa were 5 points clear of relegation last season and scored 47 goals in 38 games. How exactly are they "no better off"

So having more defensive stability and conceding less goals counts for nothing if you score less goals? And there is not a huge difference between 5 points and 2 points.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

McLeish managed to get Birmingham relegated in 2010/11 scoring less than a goal a game, and a year later Villa were no better than them under his reign. They managed to stay up despite finishing the season a point worse off than Birmingham in their relegation season and with the same scoring record - 37 goals in 38 games. Under Lambert, Villa were 5 points clear of relegation last season and scored 47 goals in 38 games. How exactly are they "no better off"

Mallorca were relegated last season, and won only 5 games of the 17 he played in.


Villa drew 0-0 with Arsenal, lost 3-2 to United and 5-0 to City in those games.


Consolidated is stretching it (see above). Success at Rangers (or Celtic for that matter) is almost immaterial. It's harder to not win something in Scotland when you're in charge of either of the Old Firm.

That's how every manager, everywhere is judged.

Mallorca only won 5 out of 17 games? If they were Real Madrid, Barca, Atletico Madrid or Valencia, they would be expected to win more. It's harsh to accuse Hutton of having a hand in them getting relegated when he played half a season with them. Besides they wanted to make the loan permanent.

Ah come on now. Are you being serious? I am judging Stevens on his performances not the results of the team. In any case, he helped Villa to three clean sheets and in the same time frame they conceded 15 goals against Chelsea (a), Spurs (h) and Wigan (h) without him in the team.

Fine. Rangers and Celtic have a monopoly over the rest of the League. In any case, two League Championships and last 16 in the Champions League in which they went out on away goals to (at that point one of the best teams in Europe) Villarreal.

If that's how every manager is judged then how does Trapattoni get any praise whatsoever for Ireland's performances under his stewardship? They were, by and large, rancid.

[Charlie Darwin]

Too early to judge Stevens on if he is up to the standard but you can't say he is out of his depth when he was thrown in in the deep end and performed admirably against Utd, City and Arsenal.

Eh, I'm a Rovers fan and I want to see Enda do well as much as anyone, but he hasn't made the grade at Villa and has all but been shown the door. If he can make it at Championship level, I'll be absolutely delighted for him.

[Junior]

Fine. Rangers and Celtic have a monopoly over the rest of the League. In any case, two League Championships and last 16 in the Champions League in which they went out on away goals to (at that point one of the best teams in Europe) Villarreal.

Just to continue the admittedly small point on his managerial 'success' in Scotland.

That is right, it was a two team league throughout his tenure at Rangers (4.5 - 5 seasons). Yet he managed to guide Rangers to third spot in season 05/06 - hence his departure at the end of that season. He also won no silverware 03/04. He did win two titles which you rightly state (one by +1 GD, the other by +1 point) one of which was part of a treble but it was fine margins with his two league titles , he also managed to guide Rangers to 7 straight losses against Celtic. Whilst no doubt Big Eck won some trophies in Scotland - I certainly wouldn't use that as any testament to his managerial credentials.

[tetsujin1979]

Just to continue the admittedly small point on his managerial 'success' in Scotland.

That is right, it was a two team league throughout his tenure at Rangers (4.5 - 5 seasons). Yet he managed to guide Rangers to third spot in season 05/06 - hence his departure at the end of that season. He also won no silverware 03/04. He did win two titles which you rightly state (one by +1 GD, the other by +1 point) one of which was part of a treble but it was fine margins with his two league titles , he also managed to guide Rangers to 7 straight losses against Celtic. Whilst no doubt Big Eck won some trophies in Scotland - I certainly wouldn't use that as any testament to his managerial credentials.

Celtic also had the distraction of the UEFA Cup Final during one of those league wins.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Are we really going to start trivialising League Championships because they were only won by the odd point or odd goal? I think you can put that any number of ways. The cynical would say it's fluky, others would call it strength in endurance. The League title was essentially lost before McLeish arrived at the club in his first season (yet he still managed to win two trophies) so fundamentally, he won two out of a possible four League Championships, spending a pittance compared to Celtic in the process. In his first full season, he won the Domestic treble - including the first of two League titles. He also consolidated Rangers position as a decent force in European football again after overseeing Rangers become the first Scottish team to progress through a European group stage. He did all this with little or no money to spend after the nonchalant spending of the Advocaat reign. He inherited an aging squad, lost players like Amoruso, McCann and Ferguson and then had to replace them with Bosman free transfers and loan signings.

He also won a trophy and got a top 10 finish for Birmingham City, finished SPL runners up with Motherwell and garnered a Scottish Cup runners-up medal with Hibernian, so he is clearly not that bad a manager.

He didn't run Aston Villa in to the ground like a lot of people think. He done as good a job as Lambert is doing and look at the amount of silly signings he's made. As someone else pointed out, Aston Villa might have scored ten less goals under McLeish in the League but they conceded sixteen more under Lambert the following season. So much for steadying the ship. For all the Villa fans vitriol, three more points was the difference between the McLeish and Lambert reigns, and Villa are in another relegation battle this year after wasting money left, right and centre on unproven players and ostracising several other experienced pros.

[Stuttgart88]

Claudio Cannigia of Rangers said the only reason they won the league was because of Celtic's UEFA cup run.

[geysir]

Claudio Cannigia of Rangers said the only reason they won the league was because of Celtic's UEFA cup run.

Celtic finished the season very strong that year, as Charlie would no doubt concur, even beating Rangers at Ibrox.
Chris Sutton had a more precise explanation, to do with Dunfermline lying down belly-up at Ibrox, meanwhile Kilmarnock were wasting time, diving, playing the corners, to hang on to a 4 goal deficit against Celtic

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Semantics.

Teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona and pre David Moyes Man Utd used to get an extra 8 or 9 points a season because of refereeing decisions. Italy is self-explanatory. The Old Firm had favourable decisions that season and every other. Whatever about Kilmarnock, you have to give Dunfermline the benefit of the doubt.

[DannyInvincible]

pre David Moyes Man Utd used to get an extra 8 or 9 points a season because of refereeing decisions.

Can you provide examples of such favourable decisions, and, if what you claim was indeed the case, why would it make any difference to referees now that Moyes is in charge?

[Charlie Darwin]

Can you provide examples of such favourable decisions, and, if what you claim was indeed the case, why would it make any difference to referees now that Moyes is in charge?

There was a remarkable statistic - I'll try and find it for you - where Manchester United didn't concede a single penalty at Old Trafford for something like 14 years until Arsenal won one around the turn of the century.

[DannyInvincible]

There was a remarkable statistic - I'll try and find it for you - where Manchester United didn't concede a single penalty at Old Trafford for something like 14 years until Arsenal won one around the turn of the century.

Hehe, so was it a case of remarkably good defending or remarkably bad refereeing? In other words, were there clear instances where visiting teams were probably deserving of penalties but had their appeals waved away by (cowardly or agenda-driven?) referees?

[Charlie Darwin]

Hehe, so was it a case of remarkably good defending or remarkably bad refereeing? In other words, were there clear instances where visiting teams were probably deserving of penalties but had their appeals waved away by (cowardly or agenda-driven?) referees?

I don't think anybody would suggest it was a result of remarkably good defending. Alex Ferguson's teams, for all their virtues, were always well capable of cynicism.

[CraftyToePoke]

Surely there was a bit of it because visiting teams would not have spent very much time in possession, proportionally, in the home penalty area, to get a penalty, due to the dominance of that side through that era ? Particularly at home. I say, a bit of it owing to that, not totally, but it is a factor.

[Charlie Darwin]

I'd say that's a lot of it, yeah. The corollary is true too - people would complain about United always getting penalties at Old Trafford, but a lot of that was the fact they were constantly running at defenders in the box. Arsenal and Liverpool have had a lot of penalties in recent seasons too for the same reason.

[Stuttgart88]

What is this argument about exactly? That McLeish is a "proven" Premier League manager?

We can easily prove that he's managed in the Premier League but the jury is certainly out, at best, that he did anything particularly good on a consistent basis.

It remains to be seen whether Lambert is any better. If pushed, I'd have to say that I see more in Lambert than I do in McLeish. The latter is very old school and I'm not sure he'll land another decent role again. He could be a short term fix for a defensively fragile squad lacking discipline, but he's not a manager who'd take a team with potential and turn them into the next Swansea. McLeish has peaked, Lambert still has time to prove himself.

[OwlsFan]

There was a remarkable statistic - I'll try and find it for you - where Manchester United didn't concede a single penalty at Old Trafford for something like 14 years until Arsenal won one around the turn of the century.

I am pretty sure that statistic is incorrect.

[bennocelt]

Baffled to how anyone can think Mcleish is a decent manager. Hell even Lennon is winning titles in Scotland. Whats Mcleish doing these days?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Baffled to how anyone can think Mcleish is a decent manager. Hell even Lennon is winning titles in Scotland. Whats Mcleish doing these days?

The same Neil Lennon that has been linked with the managerial job at Norwich?

Top 10 PL finish. League Cup. Automatic promotion to the PL. Numerous trophies with a downsizing Rangers. Good European run. 2nd place SPL finish with Motherwell. Cup final run with Hibs.

It's not that bad to have on the CV.

IDK why I'm defending him. He isn't even Irish! I guess he signs/plays a lot of Irish players i.e. Fahey, O'Shea and Stevens so that's something.

[Stuttgart88]

You're defending him because you made a slightly contentious claim that someone had the temerity to counter. As usual you then follow up with about two dozen posts getting progressively firmer in conviction. You rattle off stats where a subjective judgement would be more telling (such as why is no club showing even the remotest interest in hiring McLeish) and you just won't let another opinion go unchallenged until you flog your argument to death and everyone just gives up out of boredom. I'd say that's why - it's what you do