It really is constant from stu - you have to wonder where it comes from - and where is the same level of statistical criticism for every other player in the squad.Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
If you are a manager you do not want you goalkeeper facing shots on goal - in fact in the best teams the goalkeepers rarely face shots and when they do the striker is usually under significant pressure from a defender - because the job of the defence is to prevent the strikers getting a shot off or if they do, make sure they don't get a clean strike (or header).
Why are Man U doing so poorly this year despite spending £50m on a keeper (46 conceded in 31 games) - well, for example, maybe the fact that over two games against Liverpool they have faced 62 shots on goal - and why does that happen - because their defence is useless and Ten Haag doesn't know how to coach his team to defend (because he didn't need to do it with Ajax).
Against Blackburn on Saturday, Southampton had 69% possession and had 7 shots on goal - 2 on target. With 31% possession Blackburn had 11 shots on goal and 3 on target. Southampton should have won comfortably, but could easily have lost. One of the reasons why Southampton didn't concede, apart from Bazunu making three saves, was that Southampton defenders blocked five shots on goal.
Maybe its because nobody on here listens to anything that isnt gushing praise of GB , while shifting all the blame onto southamptons defence.
Southamptom have the 2nd fewest shots conceded in the league this season. Add their 2 games inhand with their avg shots concede per game and they go to 4th. Its not unreasonable to expect your keeper might be able to perform to even a "par" level , like say Meisler at leeds. By literally any metric Bazunu has cost southampton a real shot at automatic promotion by playing like this for the season.
Last edited by Jd2793; 08/04/2024 at 12:53 PM.
Wouldn't agree with that reading to be honest. There's far more negative stuff on here about him than positive. It's an odd one to be honest. Not sure why Bazunu gets more attention than, say, Nathan Collins, who has also had a fairly ropey few seasons. Seems to be a desire to focus on Bazunu's weaknesses rather than his strengths and generally look for holes when the reality is, as plenty have been saying for a long time now, that he's a young lad with serious raw talent playing in a high pressure position and learning his trade. He's been good and bad this season. Another season in the Championship would be good for him at this stage I think.
I wonder is it because we have Kelleher and Bazunu vying for one spot. 2 choices makes it easier for things to go a bit polarized?
21 leagues and 25 cups.
That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame. There have been times watching Southampton's defense this season and last where it looks like a FIFA game when the controllers gone a bit wobbly. The strikers are also quite inefficient going on the spg stats in the link below.
On the defensive stats side of things, I have it that Southampton conceded the 4th/5th highest shots per game in the division, at 11.1 spg equal with WBA and pretty much on a par with Sunderland, Boro and Leicester. The fewest shots per game is Leeds at 9.5 and the highest is Rotherham at 16. Interestingly, from second best to second worst, the spread is only about 4 spg so is it really that significant a measure? The only thing i will say is that you can't on one hand deny Bazunu any credit for a clean sheet because he faced very few shots on goal while at the same time not giving some sort of dispensation for the games where his defence hasn't given him the first line of protection that is their job. Which is a regular occurrence from a couple of posters on the topic of Baz.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/25...ship-2023-2024
While I am all for discussion and debate, there is a level of reasonableness that goes out the window on this site sometimes - in the race to be "right" - that is really offputting. We saw it with Kenny and it has long been the same way with Baz.
I would argue that this is not the case - there is hyper-criticism of Bazunu with no mention of his ability. Those who react to this hyper-criticism are well aware of the current weaknesses that he has - the kid has years of development ahead of him. He is one of the 2/3 youngest keepers in the top two divisions in England.
There shouldn't be any polarisation here - we have two good keepers (and Travers isn't half bad either) in the squad - you play the one who is in the best form (and IMO at the moment that is Kelleher).
[QUOTE=SkStu;2183611]That is a really unfair last line... it is a team game and as JRG rightly points out the defense has to shoulder some of the blame.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/25...ship-2023-2024
the defence is doing their job though? their xg against is ranked 3rd best, shots against is 2nd best. what more can the defence/team do? the team unit as a whole is playing like a top 3 defensive side. Bazunus save percentage is 23rd - 62.8% and his goals Prevented is also 23rd at -(minus)10.8
as i said if gav played closer to par like mesiler who has save percentage ranked 4th - 71.8% but a goals prevented 12th at -0.7 then Southampton would be in the race for a league title
this isnt bashing bazunu but its clear that he has a problem with the most important attribute a keeper needs - shot stopping. there isnt really any question marks with his ball playing or sweeping.
Last edited by Jd2793; 08/04/2024 at 3:09 PM.
Seriously - how can you claim that a defence is doing its job when they leave a winger in 30 yards of space - allow him to pass it into a striker surrounded by FOUR defenders - the striker has an eternity to miskick the ball - fall over - get back onto his feet and strike the ball into the corner without any of the FOUR defenders making a single effort between them to get a challenge in ? - and that stuff happened three times in that game and Ipswich scored each time.
Now - in my opinion - Bazunu is still to blame for the defeat. I think he should have saved the second goal which would have left Southampton on the front foot and still 2-1 up, dominating the game with 20 minutes to go. But there have been numerous occasions when Southampton have defended in this fashion and Bazunu has not been responsible for losing the game.
Daniel Farke is a very good coach - way better than Russell Martin. He has Leeds far better organised defensively than Martin has with Southampton. Have a look at any Leeds game this season and you will rarely - if ever - see an opposition striker getting a free strike or header on the ball. Invariably the strike is blocked or the striker is under severe pressure when taking the shot / header. You are not going to stop every effort on goal - but the harder the defence makes it for the striker to get the ball away, the more saves your goalkeeper will make and the fewer goals that your team will concede. And Meslier is a good young keeper who will be a mainstay in the French team for the next 10/15 years.
Leeds lost to Coventry last Saturday and it was a perfect example of what I am talking about - there wasn't a single shot or header in the entire game where a Leeds defender (or a Coventry defender) didn't get in a challenge. Coventry's first goal was the result of a massive scramble in the Leeds area after a corner when it was bundled over the line -their second goal was a fast break after a period of sustained Leeds pressure when the winger came in unchallenged from the opposite wing of the attack to knock home a cross. The Leeds goal was scored after several blocks and challenges by defenders in the Coventry area. But throughout the game the strikers were under pressure - and defenders were making challenges and clearing the ball off the line. I don't think there has been a single incident where a Southampton defender has cleared a ball off the line this season.
Again - this has to be looked at in the context of the wider team. Southampton are not set up to defend and Martin does not have them properly organised or disciplined. When they do defend properly, they rarely concede - in the first 21 games of the 22 unbeaten they had 9 clean sheets and only conceded more than one goal in one game (a 2-2 away to Preston). When they don't defend they ship a lot of goals - of the 51 they have conceded 22 have come in just 6 games - and their defence was a brutal shambles in those six games. That is 22 in 6 games - and 29 in the remaining 33 games. As is always the case - the goalkeeper gets the blame - when defensive weakness contribute significantly to the problem. Being a goalkeeper is by far the most difficult position in football.
Bazunu is not the complete article - he is 22 years old and has years to go before he has reached his prime. Alisson didn't make his debut for Internacional until he was 21yrs and 5 months - at the same age Bazunu had played almost 80 league games - had just joined Southampton and had about 10 caps for Ireland. Alisson didn't become the starter for his Brazilian team for another year. He was 24 before he joined Roma and only played 37 games for them over 2 seasons before he joined Liverpool. At the age of 26 he had played less games than Bazunu has played up to the present day. Ederson was released by Sao Paulo at 18 years of age. He ended up signing as a youth team player with a second division club in Brazil. He spent the next four seasons playing 66 games in the Brazilian second division and for Rio Ave in the Primeria Liga. He then spent two season with the Benefica B team before making his debut in Portugal. Over the following two seasons he played 37 times for Benfica.
Now I have picked the two top keepers in the PL to demonstrate the progression and development of their careers. Bazunu has played far more and at a higher level at 22 years of age than Alisson had at 26 and Ederson had at 25. Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball. There is no way he could have confidence in his defence after last season and a lot of this season - that will impact on any keepers performance, making them more hesitant and slower to adjust because he doesn't know what to expect from his defence. Now - that does not mean he doesn't have flaws - every goalkeeper does - but his weaknesses are magnified because of the 10 outfield players he has in front of him. Martin knows the problems with his defence - they went out against Blackburn and stopped strikers getting clean shots on goal - the problem is they do not do this on a consistent basis every week and that exposes Bazunu.
As I said previously - I thought the move to Southampton was a good move for Bazunu - it has turned into its exact opposite - and he is stuck there for the next 2/3 years. However, from an Ireland perspective - Bazunu is a young developing goalkeeper who could develop into a top class keeper and the best we have had since Shay Given - he is not there yet. Remember Kelleher is 25 - and has been in a much better position than Bazunu since last year. Kelleher is playing well - and deserves to start for Ireland - and Bazunu is an excellent back-up to have - and he could well end up as a better keeper than Kelleher.
Give the kid a break and if you want to do a deep dive and be hyper-critical then there are another 21 players who probably deserve it more at the moment (with the possible exception of Ferguson - who is still a kid - and Ogbene who has really exceeded my expectations for one).
Bazunu is playing for a manager who doesn't coach his teams to defend and behind players who don't tackle/challenge/ throw their bodies in front of the ball.
you have been presented with every shred of available evidence that this isnt the case this season, there really is no helping you. im out.
Martin is known for not bothering about defending - Southampton don't defend, neither did Swansea or the franchise Dons. He brought in Colin Calderwood to help with coaching the defence - but there is only so much you can do when the manager wants to focus only on attack. When things are going well they will get away with it - when they are not Southampton ship a stack of goals.
And if you want evidence - look at the Ipswich - the problems are there for all to see.
JD and Stu. It’s worth saying that xG against is a really really imperfect stat. And it’s used like it’s gospel. A good example is that Bazunu wasn’t hurt for that one that he let in against Plymouth which had a .97 xG or whatever. But equally it works the other way, it doesn’t factor in players behind the ball, time to shoot etc. so in an area where most teams might have defensive protection, if the defenders aren’t there, the xG doesn’t change. So it’s definitely true that two teams with an identical xG against could have a totally different level of difficulty for a goalkeeper.
It’s also true that a lot of Bazunu’s qualities, his ability to come out and clean up, his speed and strength and command of his area - they’re never reflected in xG against, cause shots are the only metric which count towards it, so if as a keeper, you deny a goal by stopping an attack before it the shot happens - you get no credit for it…
I don't agree it's used like gospel. For starters, you're absolutely right in the anomalies you point out - but I've flagged the Plymouth example before (and that I don't think it adjusts for deflections). I've also flagged that I don't believe it to the 0.1 - but when your stat is such an outlier (we're talking 5 worse than the worst of the pack, and then there's three outliers) then it's really hard to ignore.
xG does at least claim to factor in defensive position btw - I don't think it's correct to say "If the defenders aren't there, the xG doesn't change". See here for example - "Some of these characteristics/variables include [...] Did the defence have time to get in position?"
Agree on sweeping too - not convinced on command of his area though. Practically no other keeper claims as few crosses - so maybe there's headers coming in that other keepers would have stopped at source
Last edited by pineapple stu; 09/04/2024 at 7:22 AM.
I think it's because no-one is claiming Collins' mistakes are, say, the midfield's fault. There's nothing much to debate about Collins because there's far more agreement on his he's doing.
I was looking at shots on target only FWIW, on the basis that other shots aren't of concern to the keeper.
Question for you stu - what do statisticians tend to do with outliers ?
A much more important factor is - if defenders are in position do they attempt to get a block in or challenge the striker?
The sweeper aspect of Bazunu's game was coached up at Man City - and I would agree that he does not, yet, command his area. However, the goalkeepers command of his area is an aspect of the game that has change over the past couple of decades. Go back to the 70s and 80s and a goalkeeper would take out anything in front of them to get to the ball - that does not happen now. This is partly the result of keepers expecting to get a free out every time they are touched and worried about committing a foul if they actually do drive to the ball. However, from all the footage I have looked at, Southampton's problems is not being able to deal with crosses - it is stopping shots in the 15-25 yard range. They don't close down attackers, they don't put in challenges and they don't block shots. Opposition strikers know they have an eternity to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball cleanly - and when you can do that you will score more often than not.
Now - again - shot stopping is a weakness in Bazunu's game - but I would argue that this is currently because of his lack of confidence in his defence, making him having to shift position, causing him to be hesitant for a split second, which causes him to be a fraction late diving for the ball. From what I can see his reaction saves, when he doesn't have time to see the striker setting up, are much better. He does need to work on this shot stopping - and on collecting crosses (Travers has a big problem with this - and Kelleher isn't great either) - he also needs to be much more vocal in calling out the actions of his defence. But I don't think at this stage that Southampton is the best place for him to learn and develop - unfortunately he is stuck there.
Last edited by Jolly Red Giant; 09/04/2024 at 8:31 AM.
Defending is not the job of the 3/4/5 defenders - it starts at the very front and is the job of all 11 players. Collins does have faults but he is also a very talented footballer - again - he is only a kid (who has played over 100 games - 70 of them in the PL over the past 3 years) Collins is the same age as Bazunu, and O'Brien, and a year older than Omobamidele and Feisty. In terms of the Irish team, the weakness in midfield does cause a lot of problems for the defence and the keeper - no matter who they are.
This is just not true - every strike of a ball and every header is of concern to the goalkeeper, whether it is on target or not - it impacts on the keeper's confidence in his defence and it impact on the keeper's judgement in terms of movement and positioning. A keeper who ignores any strike off target without looking at what led up to it - is not doing their job. I posted the stat that Onana has faced 62 shots on goal in two games against Liverpool - imaging his thought process every time Liverpool launch an attack - 'oh sh*t, here they come again'.
Second goal for Watford - commentary - ‘Kone - he’s got loads of space - far too much space’ as he sets-up, picks his spot and slides it into the bottom right hand corner past Bazunu.
fans not happy with him again... he really needs a bit of form before the play offs.
boring...
do you just live to criticise him. Can't get on here quick enough to put him down. Your post never come across that even watch the games.
Deflected goal for the first so you will be delighted with the negative psxg stats he'll get for that.
Last edited by Asterix; 13/04/2024 at 4:28 PM.
LOL. i was responding to JRG who seems to think everything is southamptons fault. genuinely is it too much to expect your keeper can save that second goal? he needs a confidence boost before the pressure cooker of the play offs . lets hope his form improves in their run in
Wasn't great for Coventry's goal midweek either - a high cross into the box from out on the byline which was sidefooted home from inside the six-yard box. The player was unmarked so you could blame the defence again, but the keeper surely can't let a high cross travel right the way across the six-yard box without coming for it.
All good experience, touch wood.
No keeper is coming for that ball ffs.
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