A few taunts but Linfield fans come and go in peace

[dcfcsteve]

If people within the Eircom League community are happy, on the one hand, to tolerate sectarianism at games, whilst on the other hand being ardent in their condemnation of racism - thereby essentially asserting that one form of abuse is more acceptable than the other - then I give up.

That's my last post on the subject

P.S. I guess a few monkey chants is also progress from the days when fans throughout Europe were throwing bananas onto pitches

[paudie]

If people within the Eircom League community are happy, on the one hand, to tolerate sectarianism at games, whilst on the other hand being ardent in their condemnation of racism - thereby essentially asserting that one form of abuse is more acceptable than the other - then I give up.

That's my last post on the subject

P.S. I guess a few monkey chants is also progress from the days when fans throughout Europe were throwing bananas onto pitches

In fairness steve, I don't think people are happy to "tolerate sectarianism" or think racist abuse is worse.

It's just people expected such abuse at the Linfield game and therefore weren't surprised when it happened.

How to deal with it is another matter and not one the EL or individual clubs have had to deal with before.

[ShelsTim]

dcfcsteve is spot on, people here don't seem to give a ****e, they're very happy to tolerate sectarian sentiments if it means no violence, but these sentiments can quickly spill over into violence when the bigger games come along and plastic gob****es come along to start fights. But if there's a riot at least it's only one, or at leasat only a few people were injured. Action needs to be taken now to stamp it out, just like action should be taken to stamp out any form of discrimination or prejudice. Anybody caught singing/chanting sectarian or racist songs should be expelled from the ground for life, just like anyone caught throwing pennies/spreading hooliganism.

[gspain]

Sadly - there are still problems with sectarianism on both sides of the 'divide'. But hearing sectarian songs in the cosy confines of a Loyalist or Republican drinking den in the North is far from the same as hearing them at a televised open-house sporting event in the Republic with a mixed-religious attendance.

My point here isn't so much the fact that there was sectarian singing, but more the reaction of people on this site to it. "Sure - if it was only a wee bit of sectarian singing, then that's alright. At least they didn't go on a riot". As if being abused for your religious upbringing is some sort of small mercy ! The same people then invariably condemned the monkey chants towards Eric Lavine (which incidentally appear to have involved less people than the sectarian singing/chanting). If rascism is worthy of unqualified condemnation, then why isn't sectarianism ? I didn't hear any "Sure - if it was only a wee bit of monkey chanting, then that's alright. At least they didn't go on a riot".

My point here is that people have become de-sensitised to anti-Catholic sectarianism - particularly down south where you haven't really had to suffer it for many years.

Sectarian chanting is as wrong as rascist chanting and should be equally condemned. Regardless if it's put to music. No if's and but's, and no qualification.

Three other points : I know it's the phrase used by protestants/loyalists themselves, but I absolutely detest the reference to sectarian chants as "party songs". It trys to paint a benign gloss on what is outright sectarianism. Either that or the invites to Catholics must have all got lost in the post....

Secondly - what do you think actually happens in Republican drinking dens by the way ? I've been to a few in my time. Not to leave with a frosty voice after endless hours of chanting anti-Protestant abuse, but to get a drink. Usually at dubious hours of the morning. Some of the attendees would be dodgy characters, but a lot are just ordinary run-of-the-mill locals getting jarred. People don't stand around abusing Protestants all-day in such places. Apart from very, very occassionally when major sporting events have been on (usually involving a certain Scottish team) the only abuse that tends to get meted out is towards peoples own livers....

And finally - I can't think of any Irish 'rebel' songs that contain words referring to/celebrating the slaughter of random Protestants, a la The Billy Boys. I'll admit my personal inventory of 'RA tunes isn't as well stocked as it could be, but I'd like to hear of any such tunes if anyone knows them (e.g. are there any Catholic 1641 tunes ?)

Steve - any songs about the IRA are just as offensive and sectarian as the Billy Boys etc - in fact probably worse. I've no idea how many Catholics the Bridgeton Billy Boys did actually kill despite the songs but the IRA killed almost 2,000 people many of them sectarian murders of protestant civilians including killing some Linfield fans after a European tie. And yes the Loyalist terrorists were just as evil if not quite as organised and effective and any songs about the UVF/UFF/UDA etc ( I don't think there were any) would be just as offensive.

I've no idea really what is sung or goes on in a Republican or a Loyalist drinking den. I imagine lots of drinking and probably some sectarian singing but I've no desire at all to find out.

Other examples of sectarian singing that can be heard in bars etc are

Oh Ah Up the Ra
Inserting IRA into TFOA
Billy Reid
The Boys of the Old Brigade
"Northmen southmen comrades all soon there'll be no protestants at all"

[WeAreRovers]

Nice one Gary No mention of the Irish fans gunned down in cold-blood by Loyalist thugs during WC94. Then again the FAI didn't deem their murders worthy of a minute's silence either - they saved that for Princess poxy Diana.

It's not opinion to assert that Loyalist murder gangs were far more indiscriminate in killing innocent civilians during the troubles than Republicans were. In fact the Loyalist paramilitaries positively revelled in it.

KOH

[pete]

This is a football forum so i think best to move politics & the "...they worse than us..." debate elsewhere unless want this thread closed.

Back on topic...

[dcfcsteve]

Steve - any songs about the IRA are just as offensive and sectarian as the Billy Boys etc - in fact probably worse. I've no idea how many Catholics the Bridgeton Billy Boys did actually kill despite the songs but the IRA killed almost 2,000 people many of them sectarian murders of protestant civilians including killing some Linfield fans after a European tie. And yes the Loyalist terrorists were just as evil if not quite as organised and effective and any songs about the UVF/UFF/UDA etc ( I don't think there were any) would be just as offensive.

I've no idea really what is sung or goes on in a Republican or a Loyalist drinking den. I imagine lots of drinking and probably some sectarian singing but I've no desire at all to find out.

Other examples of sectarian singing that can be heard in bars etc are

Oh Ah Up the Ra
Inserting IRA into TFOA
Billy Reid
The Boys of the Old Brigade
"Northmen southmen comrades all soon there'll be no protestants at all"

Gary - thanks for the history lesson about the North. My avator might give a clue as to where I'm actually from.....

I agree that in the context of being used as taunts against Protestants that 'rebel songs' are sectarian. However, if you actually look at the lyrics of them they're all against the British state - not British people in general or Northern protestants in particular, so they are not in-of themselves sectarian tunes (same as The Sash).

Have never in my 32 years of 'moving in Irish circles' in Ireland, the UK, the US and elsewhere heard the line you quoted above in 'The One Road'. Where did you get it from ? It is certainly not an official line in the song, and is ironic given that the tune is about both sides of the island giving up their differences to forge a new future together. "Though we've had our troubles now and then, Now is the time to make them up again".

I detest the adding of 'Sinn Fein/IRA' into the Fields, and make a point of stating that publically to people when they do it. Ironically though - in my experience at Ireland games (I don't go to Celtic matches so can't comment on them) it is more often than not Southerners who add it in - not Northerners. That doesn't mean Northerners don't sing it - they do - butt I can only recount my experience of it. No-one I personally know from Derry or Belfast puts it in. I usually have a go at people who do it, and almost got into a fight with a Cork lad in Switzerland about it in 2003. There's nothing worse in my mind than armchair Republicans from the south being all big with the IRA. When the town they love passionately gets half blown to feck for 30years, then and only then will I accept them bigging up the IRA 8 years into a peace process.....

My original question still stands - are there any Irish songs that advocate/celebrate the slaughter of ordinary Protestants, a la 'The Billy Boys' ? I don't believe there are, but may well be wrong....

(Pete - close the thread if you want. It has clearly arisen out of the discussion regarding the chanting of Linfield fans at the Longford game. I see nothing wrong myself with healthy debate on this site).

[gspain]

Gary - thanks for the history lesson about the North. My avator might give a clue as to where I'm actually from.....

I agree that in the context of being used as taunts against Protestants that 'rebel songs' are sectarian. However, if you actually look at the lyrics of them they're all against the British state - not British people in general or Northern protestants in particular, so they are not in-of themselves sectarian tunes (same as The Sash).

Have never in my 32 years of 'moving in Irish circles' in Ireland, the UK, the US and elsewhere heard the line you quoted above in 'The One Road'. Where did you get it from ? It is certainly not an official line in the song, and is ironic given that the tune is about both sides of the island giving up their differences to forge a new future together. "Though we've had our troubles now and then, Now is the time to make them up again".

I detest the adding of 'Sinn Fein/IRA' into the Fields, and make a point of stating that publically to people when they do it. Ironically though - in my experience at Ireland games (I don't go to Celtic matches so can't comment on them) it is more often than not Southerners who add it in - not Northerners. That doesn't mean Northerners don't sing it - they do - butt I can only recount my experience of it. No-one I personally know from Derry or Belfast puts it in. I usually have a go at people who do it, and almost got into a fight with a Cork lad in Switzerland about it in 2003. There's nothing worse in my mind than armchair Republicans from the south being all big with the IRA. When the town they love passionately gets half blown to feck for 30years, then and only then will I accept them bigging up the IRA 8 years into a peace process.....

My original question still stands - are there any Irish songs that advocate/celebrate the slaughter of ordinary Protestants, a la 'The Billy Boys' ? I don't believe there are, but may well be wrong....

(Pete - close the thread if you want. It has clearly arisen out of the discussion regarding the chanting of Linfield fans at the Longford game. I see nothing wrong myself with healthy debate on this site).

I appreciate we are getting into political terroritory here however I do still think it is relevant. My point is very simple - the IRA killed almost 2,000 people during the troubles many of those killed were simply sectarian murders (and I stress again Loyalist's did likewise) therefore any songs about the IRA are sectarian. Ditto any songs about the UVF/UDA/UFF etc are sectarian.

IF there had been songs about the UVF (they weren't and I appreciate even the IF here can be unfair as it can be misread) in my view they would have been even worse and more chilling. Of course the Billy Boys is sectarian but you are much less mikely to meet families of the victims or people who know any of their victims etc.

Re inserting "IRA" into TFOA I actually only heard it for the first time in a bar in Tel Aviv but there were complaints about it being sung during the Belfast St Patricks Day celebrations a couple of years back. I didn't realise what they meant until Tel Aviv. Thankfully it hasn't yet appeared at a game however 10 years ago such sectarian singing wouldn't have been tolerated in a bar of Irish fans.

[gspain]

Nice one Gary No mention of the Irish fans gunned down in cold-blood by Loyalist thugs during WC94. Then again the FAI didn't deem their murders worthy of a minute's silence either - they saved that for Princess poxy Diana.

It's not opinion to assert that Loyalist murder gangs were far more indiscriminate in killing innocent civilians during the troubles than Republicans were. In fact the Loyalist paramilitaries positively revelled in it.

KOH

I condemned both Loyalist and Republican terrorists in my post. I can't mention every single murder.

Loyalist Terrorists killed 818 civilians. Republican terroists killed 704. In total Republican terrorists killed 1896 people, loyalists killed 935. Both were wrong. Both very evil. Both deserve utmost condemnation and repulsion. Will you agree?

As for the indiscrimate part I actually agree with you yes but that is hardly relevant.

Chants about terrosits Loyalist or Republican have no place at football or anywhere else for that matter.

[gspain]

Re the "On the One Road song" - the version "soon there'll be no protestants at all" I first heard almost twenty years ago in Cork sung by a Sinn Fein activist. I've heard it sung a couple of times since most notably by a drunk and rowdy crowd of late teens with northern accents.

I've never been to a Wolfe Tones concert but from a friend I heard that is where it originates and gets sung there. Charming.

The song itself seems to be gone too. It was once a favourite of the London Irish.

[Bosco]

Thankfully it hasn't yet appeared at a game.

I've heard it sung at Lansdowne road on many occasions

[Green Tribe]

Nice one Gary No mention of the Irish fans gunned down in cold-blood by Loyalist thugs during WC94. Then again the FAI didn't deem their murders worthy of a minute's silence either - they saved that for Princess poxy Diana.

It's not opinion to assert that Loyalist murder gangs were far more indiscriminate in killing innocent civilians during the troubles than Republicans were. In fact the Loyalist paramilitaries positively revelled in it.

KOH

i remember that time well, living in south fermanagh/tyrone area, the loyalists were taking out, everyone, countryside and towns in nationalist areas were scared to go to pubs, even scared in their own home, expecting loyalist gunmen to burst in at anytime, FAI were a joke!

[gypsyfella]

i remember that time well, living in south fermanagh/tyrone area, the loyalists were taking out, everyone, countryside and towns in nationalist areas were scared to go to pubs, even scared in their own home, expecting loyalist gunmen to burst in at anytime, FAI were a joke!

mate it seems (looking back over some threads here) that there are many on this site who would happily share the FAI's stance on that situation..

'ah forget the politics lads, this is football'.... yadda yadda - now lets mourn Diana sure wasnt she in the tabloids... its no harm done.. but we cant be seen to mourn northern nationalists , they probably had it coming.. wearing celtic tops or somethings..

sometimes this website makes me ashamed to be irish