National Underage Leagues and LOI underage

**Philosophizer** · 30/03/2017, 11:27 AM

Interesting article by Dave Henderson (Boh's chief scout, and former Aston Villa scout) in the Irish Times last week.

He touches on many interesting points, and re-iterates how the national underage leagues have been a big success in transitioning power from the big DDSL clubs to the national underage teams. This is something I've heard a few times now but i'd like to know more on the specifics of that, like:

Did the best kids move en masse from Kevins/Joeys/stella maris/Home Farm/Belvedere/Cherry Orchard to the national leagues when they started?
Are the traditional big 6 struggling to recruit the best young players now, or are plenty of gifted kids still going there?
If so, are they starting to struggle financially because their revenue source of selling teenagers to England has started to decline?
Have the big 6 lost any of their staff (coaches/scouts/administrators etc) to the national league teams?
Would the likes of Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Cork u17 teams now be much better than Belvedere or Kevins?

I know Kevins have made a lot of noise in the last year with newspaper articles and the PrimeTime episode, but the other 5 don't sem to have made any noise at all.

I'm sure there are some ppl on here who are involved in underage football or have their ear to the ground about this stuff.

**Ezeikial** · 30/03/2017, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Philosophizer

Would the likes of Rovers/Bohs/Pats/Cork u17 teams now be much better than Belvedere or Kevins?

This comparison is something of a red herring. Traditionally the DDSL export clubs have had little interest in u17 and above because the elite kids have generally already been trafficked to the UK by age 16.

It is when u15 national league is introduced (and presumably followed by u13) that the shift in development emphasis will really be seen.

Apart from their being a more national spread, the shift in elite player development in Dublin will become even more apparent at that point.

**Mr A** · 30/03/2017, 1:01 PM

Pats and Belvedere announce link up.

http://www.stpatsfc.com/news.php?id=7508

**Philosophizer** · 30/03/2017, 1:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ezeikial

It is when u15 national league is introduced (and presumably followed by u13) that the shift in development emphasis will really be seen.

Fair point. I've found online that the u15 league is due to begin this August, so I presume that the national league u15 teams are already trying to source coaching staff and players for their u15 squads. Anyone heard yet if any players/coaches from the big 6 will be moving to teams in the national league?

**Buller** · 30/03/2017, 2:49 PM

Great article!
We have Damian Duff coaching our U15 team in an effort to entice them away from DDSL / big 6.
League of Ireland underage sides wont make real progress until an U15 National League is setup, that is the age we need to target first!

**nigel-harps1954** · 30/03/2017, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Buller

Great article!
We have Damian Duff coaching our U15 team in an effort to entice them away from DDSL / big 6.
League of Ireland underage sides wont make real progress until an U15 National League is setup, that is the age we need to target first!

But, the under-15 league is starting in August?

Kevin McHugh is in charge of the Harps under-15's.

**El-Pietro** · 30/03/2017, 6:53 PM

Dan Murry and Billy Woods announced as the Under 15 Management team at City this evening. Delighted to have Dan back at the club.
http://www.corkcityfc.ie/home/2017/0...eam-announced/

**Philosophizer** · 30/03/2017, 7:03 PM

More info on the belvo website about the official link with St Pats - http://www.belvederefc.com/club-news...etic.2157.html

**sbgawa** · 30/03/2017, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

But, the under-15 league is starting in August?

Kevin McHugh is in charge of the Harps under-15's.

Rovers have under 14 and 15 teams in the ddsl already so I presume he is coaching them now and will bring the best ones into the national league plus some new recruits

**Jofspring** · 31/03/2017, 7:53 AM

Limerick had an issue before where they had open trials when the 17's were starting up. It was a bone of contention that they would be "robbing" the best players from other clubs and that the players already with Limerick at underage would be looked over for players coming from elsewhere. They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Limerick have teams now starting at u4's all the way up to u15's, u17's, u'19's nationally.

**gufcfan** · 31/03/2017, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by Jofspring

They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Let them. They'll never be sated. Same attitude all around the country. Has nothing to do with player development and everything to do with protecting their own position.

**pineapple stu** · 31/03/2017, 9:13 AM

I hear prospective players for the UCD u15 team have to be have gotten at least three As in their Junior Cert mocks.

**joey B** · 31/03/2017, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Jofspring

Limerick had an issue before where they had open trials when the 17's were starting up. It was a bone of contention that they would be "robbing" the best players from other clubs and that the players already with Limerick at underage would be looked over for players coming from elsewhere. They decided after the trial to sign none of the players and stick with ones they already had at younger age groups coming through. The academy is actually causing a bigger divide in Limerick with junior-schoolboy clubs as they still continue to claim players are being robbed from them.

Limerick have teams now starting at u4's all the way up to u15's, u17's, u'19's nationally.

There's been similar claims in Donegal surrounding Harps Academys I think, there's also being accusations that the Harps academy was using money taken for training gear being used for the first team which is complete rubbish and was spread by people involved in running schoolboy football in the county.

**nigel-harps1954** · 31/03/2017, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by joey B

There's been similar claims in Donegal surrounding Harps Academys I think, there's also being accusations that the Harps academy was using money taken for training gear being used for the first team which is complete rubbish and was spread by people involved in running schoolboy football in the county.

I wouldn't say people really. I'd say person.

The animosity towards Harps in Donegal is less than it was ten years ago. There's still a select few people who would bend over backwards to screw over the club though.

**hoops1** · 31/03/2017, 10:52 PM

Some very good points by Henderson, where I wouldn't agree with him is the removal of the competitive element in the younger ages. That's actually one of the best things to happen the game here. Will to win still surfaces very quickly between teams of similar standards, where before the technical aspect was more than not being totally lost in overly competitive games.

**Philosophizer** · 07/04/2017, 10:13 AM

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.

**sulywaterfordfc** · 07/04/2017, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Philosophizer

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.

Then again another way of looking at it. Handful of players could be excelling for a clubs youth team but may not be ready for the step up just yet. Its better for player development to play from 19 onwards then play the odd game from the bench here and there and both club and player hoping the player develops further. Imo it hinders the players development due to the lack of game time. Yes you'll get 1/2 players ready to take the jump straight away from U19s to first team but at the same time you don't want young player with talent to be burnt out at first team level early in there career. But there'll be others whom have ability and potential but not yet be at the level required, the physical level being one of the bigger factors. If there's an U21 league it gives players additional chance of development especially ones just one on the border line. Players get regular football then get the odd first team game here and there, helps the player develop and get first team experience along the way. It to an extent stops clubs filling there squads each year with U19 players, some of whom who get very few chances. Example been that I know of, in Waterford there's three U19 players on first team contracts one of which been 17. All three came off the bench in the cup game this week and play regularly for U19s. But if they were overage for the 19s that'd of been there first competitive game of the season. Young lads sitting on the sideline watching will get players nowhere if anything it's going to turn them off football especially when they're putting in all the hard work few days a week in training for it to end in getting a sit in the stand watching on. Personally I think if there were U13,15, 17, 21 (Which could even act as an reserve team with a limited number of overage players allowed play each match - could even add junior teams to the league whom have aspirations of later joining the league) it would see the level of player development improve and there'd be a more of a level of professionalism in the league and gives the league a better look.

Obviously for the league to go and improve as a whole there needs to be personal running clubs whom know what they're doing. And ultimately there needs to be an association whom has the leagues best interests at heart or just even taking some sort of interest in the league with proper management and better financial support, e.g. Prize money. When you see clubs allowed get to themselves into the position of Waterford and Athlone last year is laughable, mainly because its a regular occurrence in the LOI. And if clubs were to start running the league then the league would be even more of a mess, some clubs can't even get there own houses order let alone run a national league.

**Charlie Darwin** · 11/04/2017, 3:28 AM

Originally Posted by Philosophizer

Stephen O'Donnell was on the LoiWeekly podcast yesterday and made a v good point that if you're a good young player in Ireland you can easily be in a LOI team at the age of 18/19. This got me thinking about how much do we really need a u21/u23 league? Is it really the next most pressing issue that should be tackled once the u15 and u13 national league are up and running.

The evidence seems to suggest that O'Donnell is right. Recently there has been quite a few young lads who've made the jump from u19s to seniors relatively easily like Ogbene, Ellis, Hoare, Jamie McGrath, and a whole bunch of young lads at Rovers currently like Clarke, Doona, Bolger, Boyd, Dobbs.

The level of our league isn't as high as most European leagues so we don't have the enormous gap in standard that exists between underage and senior level. Maybe the lack of an u21/u23 league is actually not as big of a problem as some think. I'm guessing that this was in Ruud Dokter's thinking when he decided to create national leagues at u19, u17, u15 etc, instead of u18, u16 etc.

The LSL and other intermediate leagues are all the U21 development we need. We need more link-ups like Dundalk with Malahide and Pats with Crumlin and Belvo (or UCD with their LSL team) and that will be sorted. Hopefully the expansion of the underage LOI will help normalise that and make it work better for everyone.

**Charlie Darwin** · 11/04/2017, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by sulywaterfordfc

Then again another way of looking at it. Handful of players could be excelling for a clubs youth team but may not be ready for the step up just yet. Its better for player development to play from 19 onwards then play the odd game from the bench here and there and both club and player hoping the player develops further.

It's less of an issue in Dublin where there are fully-developed junior and intermediate leagues, but surely a lot of Waterford's (and Wexford's) "gap" is bridged by the likes of North End, etc. The ideal solution, long term, would be a fully-developed intermediate structure so we had proper provincial amateur structures below the League.