I saw this posted on a Celtic message board and thought it well worth pasting on here. (I assume the article is from Saturday's Irish Times but, since I can't find a web link for it, I may well be wrong.)
PP
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Identity is a sense of place not birthplace
Tom Humphries
LockerRoom: Old Firm weekend and it strikes you that there can scarcely be a more curious Irish social phenomenon than our smouldering relationship with Celtic Football Club. I've never been religious apart from this weird, mainly latent, devotion to Parkhead - that observance gives an odd insight into what it must be like to live in a monotheistic culture.
I just assume that everybody I know likes Celtic to thrive, that we all have the same reference point, the same basic world view. Apart, that is, from the odd southside freakshow who'll make an ostentatious point of telling the world that being fully evolved as a post-colonial Irish person means being chuffed to bits when Engerland do well. Yawn. And to be a mature Manchester City fan is to take a delight in Manchester United's spiffing achievements.
It's a touchstone of Irishness that everybody you know has some sort of devotion to Celtic. Lapsed, staunch, casual, fundamentalist. Whatever. Celtic are as reliable a conversational fall back as the weather is. On a day like yesterday everyone you meet will have shared the same views on the Old Firm game.
Which makes the Aiden McGeady business odd and uncomfortable. Certain fans of certain clubs in Scotland have taken to giving Aiden McGeady a hard time because famously, he has declared for Ireland (well he declared back when he was 15, people have just begun to care now) Having been reared in Glasgow, many people would have assumed that McGeady would declare for Scotland.
A few preliminary points.
Firstly, the Scottish youth system is a tangle of silly rules and regulations which practically steered McGeady into a green jersey all on its own.
Secondly the kid has, like so many Scots, a deep affinity with Ireland. As Packie Bonner has explained about the whole thing: "Aiden's family comes from my part of the world, Donegal, and like a lot of Scots boys with roots from there he has a strong link with Ireland." Simple. Well for us it is.
And then there's the fact that if a club produces a great young player, possibly a genius, it is virtually the solemn duty of the fans of other clubs to barrack and belittle that player. The young genius will be well rewarded for enduring the taunting of the masses. That's entertainment.
Those few points should all mean that the Aiden McGeady business is no big deal but somewhere in the heart of Scotland the fact of a young fella choosing his nationality by inclination rather than by accident of birth has caused a wound. All sorts of sly comment sneaks into the Scottish media concerning McGeady. Take the following cuts from recent opinion pieces in the Daily Record: "I actually hope McGeady has a miserable career as an Irish internationalist. In football you reap what you sow and I suspect that McGeady has naively planted the seeds of his own self-destruction . . .
"The word that immediately springs to mind is patriotism - the commitment to the country of your birth - a value McGeady has chosen to throw away like the joke in an old Christmas cracker . . .
"On the day he made the decision to play for Ireland and snub Scotland, I think he made a profound error of judgment."
"What I cannot accept is that playing international football has descended to the level of a Woolworth's pick and mix and that McGeady and his generation have the right to cruise around looking for the strawberry creams . . .
"But I can see the point of those who believe he is nothing more than a self-serving opportunist who has snubbed Scotland at their greatest moment of need . . .
"It's time all Scottish Celtic fans got over their obsession with Ireland.
"The fact that Glasgow sports shops sell as many Ireland football tops as Scotland football tops is both pathetic and ultimately unhelpful. This isn't sectarianism, this is about being Scottish and proud of it."
These are harsh, mean and uncomfortable things to be writing about an 18-year-old footballer who when he was 15 made a decision based on emotion and intuition and love. Again it's worth remembering that Aiden McGeady is going to be a superstar, he'll rise above the clamour of small minds. And yet . . .
The whole business pushes some buttons which we'd rather not see accessed. There's an instinct to retaliate glibly by listing off a ream of English-born players who have represented Scotland and then to ask more saliently why any view of Scottish patriotism or nationalism can't include the huge strand of Irishness which runs through it just as any large-scale view of Irish nationalism is going to have to respect and embrace a dour strand of Scots presbyterianism which seems alien to our beery selves. And what about this business of all patriotic duty being to the country of your birth? Childish nonsense.
Those buttons, though. Aiden McGeady will be a star and he'll be our star and knowing that he has chosen us, doesn't it deliver just the slightest frisson of triumphant pride, that external validation we crave? It's an uncomfortable area and as a nation who boo and barrack opposing international players if they have ever been, as we see it, contaminated by contact with a Rangers jersey we are barred from taking the high moral ground.
Remember Saipan and that vicious and unfounded rumour that Roy Keane, in mid-rant, had questioned Mick McCarthy's Irishness in a rather crude and direct way? It never happened but even the whisper of it sent a shiver of discomfort down the national spine. Mentally we divided the team into two categories. Those who would be uncomfortable with the issue being out there and, well, those who were born here. There was the awful possibility that the rock had been lifted on that whole mess of worms.
We're as inept as the Scots are at understanding the nuances and ramifications of race and nationality issues. Do we love all English-accented players who play for Ireland as steadfastly as we love the home-bred boys? Honestly?
Who do we love more, an Irish player who was raised in England listening to The Clancy Brothers, being dragged to mass every Sunday and being forced to spend long summers with the relatives in Ireland during which time he tried his hand at Gaelic football or the fella who got a few schoolboy caps for England, saw nothing developing and ransacked the attic for his granny's birth cert? Do we cherish them both equally? Or are we just nodding insincerely at this point.
And the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Gallens and others who have dithered about their Irishness and then declined to come on board, do we not have a special cold storage place for them in our resentful hearts? Do we not take a little satisfaction in seeing them struggle in their careers? I know many, many people like me who were born in England of Irish parents. There's always something coming down the track which will make you feel a little less Irish than somebody who first saw the light of day in The Rotunda.
We're not broad and accepting. There are degrees. I remember Mick McCarthy once saying that his late father, Charlie, who hailed from Tallow in Waterford, had tried a few times to teach him how to hurl and thinking to myself happily that made Mick more Irish than he was before I knew that piece of information.
The lesson is that there are no easy lessons. We are coming fast towards a time when there will be kids born and raised beside me here in Marino who will be declaring to play soccer for Latvia or Lithuania or Nigeria.
Good luck to them. We should be as happy for them as we wish Scottish fans and journalists would be for Aiden McGeady. The only universal application of patriotism is what's in a person's heart and head, not where they got their first nappy changed.
Semper in faecibus sole profundum variat
i actually havent read what you posted because what i have learned from reading Humphreys articles is that he may have an idea about Gaa or even rugby he hasnt a clue about football.
Whatever he has said abou Glasgow Celtic - good, bad or indifferent its wrong.
I would regard Humphreys as the ultimate barstooler. He reguritates skys coverage in his own jaundiced world weary style.
Tried to emulate Dunphy (whos no great shakes himself) and failed.
I'm a wee bit surprised at you Eoin for dismissing what Humphries says out of hand without even reading it. Are you afraid that he might touch a nerve or what?
FWIW, I think in this article his view is cogent and balanced, and above all, he's right. Give it a go.
PP
Semper in faecibus sole profundum variat
Thats unfair Eoin. Humphries is no friend of the eL, but he is anything but a Sky clone. He has written many a column on the sheer greed, ridiculous hyping and the manner in which Sky is slowly destroyng football.Originally Posted by eoinh
You should not comment on articles if you refuse to read them.
Don't see anything that will stir up a hornets nest tbh - the first few don't back up any of the usual celtic arguements (either way), infact call it curious.
The rest of the article is more stating the bleeding obvious than anything else - yes people born in the UK can be irish, no players that decide their nationality at 27 aren't accepted as much as someone who decided to play for Ireland at 15.
It's not ground breaking commentary, just more over hyped meanderings of an over hyped journo.
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Strange thing about this Mcgeady character is that in his attempted defence against the scottish boo boys he is quoted in the press as saying he would have liked to, and probably would have declared for Scotland were it not for their cumbersome rules about schoolboy soccer or some such administrative red tape. In other words he was displaying an entirely mercenary and calculated streak to nation choosing, albeit for a 15 year old. I've no problem with this attitude from players as I dont derive any nationalistic pride or Tom Humphries like feelings of well being from the decisions of a spotty glaswegian 15 year old but if he was black, English born and playing for say, Birmingham City I'd wager it would not 'deliver just the slightest frisson of triumphant pride, that external validation we crave?'. Humphries is one of the firm and their holy trinity is The National Team, Celtic and Hurling.
It has to be Hurling, not GAA. Apparently stickball is more pure to these guys. I used to like his writing style, if not always the content but his easy fallback on to his holy trinity makes his columns tough going these days.
Last edited by wws; 10/01/2005 at 11:06 AM.
Here here WWS,
His column are a lot more literate than many jounos but that merely papers over the cracks in the way his columns have bombed in gneral quality over the last 12 months
In any discussion about Irishness or Irish Indentity, hurling will always come into it. It is a uniquely Irish game, and disparaging remarks calling it "stickball" or whatever, while maybe your opinion, simply demonstrate ignorance.
An article I read presented the argument as actual quotes from McGeady himself, in fairness to him he was fighting a PR battle as he was taken aback by the level of abuse he was shipping for playing in scotland, ending up a promising prospect and having declared years before this whole thing broke.
No it doesnt. Hurling is a stickball game. Get over it. This is typical of the touchy holier than thou attitude to sacred cows that the likes of Humphries peddles. Theres a whole million or so kids in this land who will quite happily never play a game of hurleying in their lives. Deal with it and dont give me some nonsense that we all have to speak in hushed tones and with due reverence for a game of hurling. We dont, I dont. By the way me da played inter county hurling and his da managed an intercounty side, albeit a **** one.
Whilst it maybe an Irish sport, it's not a million miles away from Shinty and even Hockey - as close to those as bogball is to proper football, aussie rules etc anyway....
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Saw a brilliant quote from Eamonn McCann recently in an article where he explored the origins of hurling and "Gaelic" Football. While rightly pointing out that hurling and and Irish culture have been hand in hand for about 2 and a half millenia now "gealic" Football was and is he concluded "a traditional irish sport to pretty much the same extent that the Corrs play traditional irish music" Brilliant!
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
"It's a touchstone of Irishness that everybody you know has some sort of devotion to Celtic. Lapsed, staunch, casual, fundamentalist. Whatever. Celtic are as reliable a conversational fall back as the weather is. On a day like yesterday everyone you meet will have shared the same views on the Old Firm game."
I don't care where you stand on 'the Celtic debate', that comment is plainly not true. It is lazy, clichéd journalism.
FACT: Nobody in my family has any 'sort of devotion' to Celtic. I know all of them, so that makes that statement incorrect.
A by-line to the main thrust of the discussion, which should not be allowed to descend into another tedious 'Celtic debate', but relevant to the discussion on Humphries merits as a journalist.
I think people give him too much credance because of the way he takes himself so seriously, a much better and more insightful writer of the Irish and Irishness is Declan Lynch in my opinion, he's more my cup of tea cause he uses a lighter touch, which even Humphries used to use before he started taking his kid to hurling training and getting all emotional on us. Lynch in the sunday indo yesterday - great stuff about how sport has replaced religion in this country and a great line about our architecture of the age reflecting this quiet shift - the wonder that is Croke Park.
a class act
Well he wasn't exactly trawling the Scottish media for comments. The Daily Record is hardly a pro-Celtic paper and got mocked by Rangers fans I knew in Scotland for being too pro-Rangers so if he's looking for a fair and balanced opinion on McGeady he went to the wrong place. Did he check the Scotsman? The Press and Journal? or even the Scottish Sun?
It's like using the Daily Mail to get a general British view on asylum seekers!
Check out my new sports blog http://www.action81.com
Thank you people. This is exactly the kind of debate I wanted to stimulate by posting the article.
Semper in faecibus sole profundum variat
Eoinh - that's one of the most ridiculous postings I've ever read on here. How can you slate something someone has written whilst refusing to read it ? Outrageously small-minded.
To save your unsulleyed eyes from reading it (and I've no idea who Humphreys is, so no need/intention of defending him unduly) the article is actually more about the issue of identity than it is football or Glasgow Celtic.
But sure, even if that guy told you the time he'd be wrong....
As a born and bred Irishman slowly approaching the point in time from which more than half his life will have been spent living OUTSIDE of Ireland, this whole issue of 2nd generation identity is becoming increasingly poignant to me.
There's a high chance I'll end up having kids in England. The thought of one of them bounding home from the shops one day wearing an England football or rugby top fills me with fear. I hope/intend to bring-up any kids I may have outside of Ireland with a very strong sense of their Irishness - even if it is masked behind an English/American/French accent.
But the Irish themselves seem almost obssessed with the concept of passing judgement on someone elses right to claim Irish identity. Have you ever heard of the phrase 'Plastic Jock/Welsman/Englishman' ? Uniquely, huge numbers of people aroung the world take immense pride in an ability to claim Irish ancestry. This is bizarre, perplexing, to a degree heart-warming, and seemingly unique. How many Americans/Australians make a big deal about their Dutch/German/English/Scandinavian ancestry ? Whilst most nations would find it great if large numbers of non-natives elsewhere within the world were openly asserting their connections to it - the Irish being the Irish, anyone who dares lay claim to our identity without actually being born in God's country is only allowed to do so in a very limited way. The English spent 900 years trying to quash the sense of Irishness. Now the Irish people seem intent on carrying on that job for them.
Held a hurley once ? Good so. Know who Gay Byrne is from endless Summers back home at your granney's? Great stuff. Speak more of the Irish language than most of the Irish themselves ? Tremendousc. But you're not and never will be the real deal, and we'll remind you of this regularly in a way that suggests your sense of Irishness is inferior, unpure, and almost 'unwanted'.
Myself and 4 mates from Belfast were over in Paris for the Ireland game in October. Politely making our way through a jammed Irish bar with a smile on our faces and the obligatory 'excuse me's, a couple of fat middle-aged Dublin c*nts heard our Ulster accents and said to each other - and I quote - "here come the Scottish...". (Luckily I didn't hear them and didn't know about it until one of my friends mentioned it later, as my lifelong pacificism would have come to an abrupt and violent end there and then). Not happy with passing scentence on the rights of 2nd generation Irish to a claim on their identity, it seems actually being born and bred within the island isn't even good enough either for some Irish people now. *******. Only amongst the Irish......
oh they of course had to be Dublin c**nts didnt they??!
get up the yard they were probably cork whoers - u exiles just cant differentiate the varied accents of the mother land!
if they were sporting scottish club replica shirts they got wot they deserved
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